Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[Metsfanmax]

Hey, you know what's cool? When I provide reasons how that isn't WIFOM and you don't ignore them or me just because. Since reading hasn't been your strong suit this game, I'll copy/paste it for you.

Again, that's weak, and a huge stretch of the whole WIFOM concept. An argument that has an opposite does not WIFOM make. By that rate any argument is WIFOM and this game is stupid and no one should ever play it. If all arguments devolve into recursive mindgames, there's no point.

See, I actually responded to that:

No, there are plenty of arguments that have "opposites" that do not fall under WIFOM. For example, if you think virus is scum and I defending him because I am also scum, there's no WIFOM there. There's no particular reason for me to actively defend him if I'm town. (In this case I am not defending him, I am calling out a bad argument. Also, see my post above: if you're voting for me, that means you think virus is scum and therefore I'm defending him, which makes it completely unclear why you're voting for me and not him.)

and the only part you latched onto is the part where I said this whole debate doesn't matter. Clearly you either don't agree or aren't willing to consider my arguments, but I don't see what the point of going on like this is if you're not going to engage my argument.

If your response to getting caught in your own stupid arguments is to shut out the person showing you your error, I'm fine lynching you just to get you out of the game, nevermind my arguments.

Wait. So first, you say that I should be lynched because I'm having this debate and therefore misdirecting the discussion about virus. Then, when I say, OK, let's just end the discussion about virus, you say I should still be lynched because I won't agree with you? What exactly do you want me to do here?

[Metsfanmax]

vote pancakemix, this time I'm serious. This entire argument has either been the worst mafia argument I've ever seen (in which case we need to drop you now) or the same misdirection you're accusing me of, in which case by your own logic you need to be lynched because you're scum. Good day.

[StorrZerg]

Let's be honest. Probably 2 town fighting with pm and mets.

Cool it with each other, look else where for a lynch. I don't see a point lynching either of you guys today.

[pancakemix]

See, no you didn't respond, because I stated that my argument wasn't WIFOM because it isn't and you're attacking a strawman. And you said that yes, not all arguments are WIFOM but failed to explain why my argument was WIFOM, which is why you didn't want to talk about it in the first place. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. Maybe if you would read past the first paragraph of my posts without having a fit, you'd have seen that by now.

Wait. So first, you say that I should be lynched because I'm having this debate and therefore misdirecting the discussion about virus. Then, when I say, OK, let's just end the discussion about virus, you say I should still be lynched because I won't agree with you? What exactly do you want me to do here?

...no, that's not what I said. You were misdirecting in order to shut down discussion in general. You were trying to stop the virus discussion by saying it wasn't worth talking about, but there was nothing else to discuss at that time. If you want a general halt to discussion, that's scummy. I'm pursuing that. You've misunderstood (or misrepresented) that at every step of the way.

What I want are some reasonable insights. If not virus, then who? And don't say random lynch is fine, because that's of no benefit to anyone.

[strike wolf]

Vote Count

DJfireside (1)-Spiesr
Virus90 (3)-Storr, Mtam, Iron Butterfly
MetsfanMax (2)-Silver Samus, Pancake
Storrzerg (2)-Jamesker, Jonty
Silver Samus (1)-Hotshot
Pancakemix (1)-Metsfanmax

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline in 2 days.

I believe this is accurate but I did put it together quick so let me know if there is a mistake.

[HotShot53]

Finally home from work after another 11+ hour day... and worst of all I'm too busy to read the forums at work like I usually do lol.

After reading the past few pages, doesn't look like too much has happened new really, other than PCM and mets arguing about what WIFOM means... which isn't really helping things. Silver Samus has posted a few times and contributed a bit more, so I will unvote him.

I'm still at a coin flip with virus.... his original joke could have just been a careless drunk joke... or it could be one of those jokes that has some reasoning behind it, rolefishing with a built-in "it was just a joke" excuse. Similarly, his very calm (too calm?) defense could just be a town not concerned about the case because he knows he is town, or it could be a scum who knows a too-strong defense usually backfires... he admits he is trying to stay under the radar with his defense. At this point, it's as good of a day 1 case as it looks like we will get with only 2 days left. So that we can try to get something out of today, a claim at the least, I will vote virus, since there is no other case looking likely to do anything today, and a day 1 with no info gained isn't very good.

[Silver_Samus]

For the sake of the game, I will Unvote, vote Virus.

We need more information out of him, and he ain't providing even now. (this puts him at L-2).
My reasoning behind this is simple: I already explained that the mistakes virus made should be punished, and if he comes with a very good explanation, we'll need the time for another case.

What is the view on a No Lynch on D1 on this forum? I'm not a fan of it myself.

[Metsfanmax]

What is the view on a No Lynch on D1 on this forum? I'm not a fan of it myself.

In a 12 person game, that is explicitly not balanced, a D1 no lynch would be a bad thing. We don't have clues to the setup except for our own role PMs, and so we desperately need to find out something. I'm going to abstain for now on the vote on virus. I agree with hotshot that virus' latest posts haven't been especially inspiring for me, but it's still not much better than a coin flip as to whether he's mafia. We've got enough votes for a claim, and whether or not I agree with how we got here, we've certainly made some sort of progress.

[Metsfanmax]

What is the view on a No Lynch on D1 on this forum? I'm not a fan of it myself.

In a 12 person game, that is explicitly not balanced, a D1 no lynch would be a bad thing.

One caveat to this: in this game, we need to be worried about jesters, bombs, etc.

[StorrZerg]

What is the view on a No Lynch on D1 on this forum? I'm not a fan of it myself.

In a 12 person game, that is explicitly not balanced, a D1 no lynch would be a bad thing.

One caveat to this: in this game, we need to be worried about jesters, bombs, etc.

doesn't matter. Mafia is this game, we lynch them.

[StorrZerg]

Anyone right now who does not have a vote placed. Please consider some of the quiet people and make a case.
pressure is needed, make your vote count.
Anyone not voting virus and has a vote out. (save for votes on mets/pcm cause those are donkey votes today) Need to make another push on who they are voting for (you can't just push once, and then afk, then say after game "see i was right but no one listened" It is very easy for a small case to be drowned out. ) Other wise, make a new case and push.

Votes need to be had guys.

atm it seems only 2 with no votes DJfireside Virus

5 votes on virus - Storr, Mtam, Iron Butterfly Hotshot Silver Samus
2 votes on Storr - Jamesker, Jonty
pcm/mets vote and counter vote
1 vote DJfireside - Spiesr



So @ Jamesker, Jonty you guys need to either push again against me or move off. To be frank, james your push was very weak and last checked in on the 7th.
And jonty, my push on virus has changed. Your read should be updated as well.

[JamesKer1]

Storr. My vote stays. You are throwing way too many names around- myself, IB, DJ, Jonty- and trying to get cases to stick. Yes, virus seems scummy to me, but as I recall that's his consistent playing style in other games as well. Also, if memory serves, there is somewhat of a language barrier with him (not much, no offense intended. Your English is great and fooled me for a while), so I try not to read too much into his posts.

Back to you- you get town cred for pushing for votes (but what if it was for a mislynch on Virus? WIFOM?), but that doesn't make you clean. Nice that we are pointing to semi-actives for lynches, but look at people who are a little more active than me, maybe Silver, IB, or someone at that level. Active enough to fly under the radar, but still not much activity. A little busy in real life ATM, I've been reading but seen no reason to put myself in the virus or Mets/PCM battles when none are solid cases in my view. If better reasoning comes up I'll vote virus, since that seems to be what you wanted to accomplish by calling me out, but my vote will stay on you until then.

Apologies for any inconsistencies or repetition in the above. Typed on my phone, just for you Storr.

[virus90]

well think its claim time for me, coming to close to both in deadline and in votes to delay any longer i guess.

i am: Batman-Town One Shot Vig

The good news - i can prove my ability tonight! the bad news: that makes me useless, and a high risk of shooting town i guess. But i now think i just will use it, might distract mafia with killing or blocking me as a potential thread so they might not bother someone else, and proves that i am what i am, if i would survive this day and not use it i think the discussion D2 would be right back at where we are now and would be about me again.
with 12 people in game there are probably 3 mafia, think 4 would be to much, so 12-1(me)= 11 minus a few i feel good about, would go towards a 40% odd to hit mafia i guess, if they dont block me or something.

Then on who i think is scummy highest on my list at the moment are;
IB, he has not posted much and now pretty late puts a vote on me, in my opinion a bandwagon vote.
jonty, i like that he "is in my camp" but, he clearly is reading (posted last 3 days) but its just a bunch of 1-liners he is posting. except for saying he doesnt like the case on me and voting storrzerg, he has added nothing to the conversation while i know he is around.
i will vote IB

some other thoughts:
at this point i feel good about mets, because he has stayed at his position the whole time, knowing it was a dangerous position since the general consent was otherwise. i cant imagine mafia would be so strongly opinionated day 1, if it turns out otherwise in the end: kudos for a ballsy play.
Storr, i dont know about him, has been the leader against me, for which i downrate him, but just as mets been very strong opinionated and kept pushing, so no sign of scummarining what-so-ever, taking the lead for town building a case, so town signs. then again, storr is always active and leading, and if pro-mafia player was a thing you could earn money with i am pretty sure he would give it a shot with all the videomaffia he does as well etc. so if someone would have the balls to pull of a mafialeaded lynch i would say it was storr so i am not sure about storr, think because of his mafia experience i will always doubt him. (which is intended positive)
Spiesr: positive feeling, he makes sense in my opinion, he hasnt really took a side in the whole discussion but the posts he makes in my opinion are town-positive.

[StorrZerg]

Response in blue

Storr. My vote stays. You are throwing way too many names around- myself
You had checked out of the game. Do you disagree with pressuring inactive players? Also maybe this helps you, as for my play style i treat everyone as guilty from the start, one must work to become townie in my eyes.
, IB, DJ, Jonty
Secondly, you used a broad statement regarding 3 people. Yet you only talked about yourself. "storr is throwing to many names out" Yet, you dont bother to agree or disagree with the cases. Even on yourself you should admit its reasonable to be suspected since you had not posted in 3 days, and your previous post was very lacking and sheeping. Now you make it sound worse than it is, but i never called jonty scummy. So i'm wondering why you include him in the list. I specifically stated that jonty needed to update his read on myself, since my push on virus had changed.

and trying to get cases to stick. Yes, virus seems scummy to me, but as I recall that's his consistent playing style in other games as well. Also, if memory serves, there is somewhat of a language barrier with him (not much, no offense intended. Your English is great and fooled me for a while), so I try not to read too much into his posts.
So let me get this right, you naturally read him as scummy most games, and you attribute this to English as his second language? Now, my current case on virus (prior to his claim post) had changed drastically and has nothing to do with his ability to read and write.


Back to you- you get town cred for pushing for votes (but what if it was for a mislynch on Virus? WIFOM?),
ok so you give me town cred for that. So what if it is a mislynch. That is still information, mafia probably voted on the lynch. Day 2 then becomes figuring out if Storr was pushing from a town perspective or not, and who else was on that wagon was being a sheep or being town. Secondly don't say "wifom" just to say it cause others have. I'd probably venture half the time people have said "wifom" has been false. Its honestly better to to play the game with out stating "wifom" or "omgus" since hardly anyone actually explains what they mean when they use those terms.
but that doesn't make you clean. Nice that we are pointing to semi-actives for
lynches, but look at people who are a little more active than me, maybe Silver, IB, or someone at that level. Active enough to fly under the radar, but still not much activity.
I really don't care to lynch anyone active day 1 generally. People who are active are driving conversation, are putting themselves out there. They get town cred for playing the game. Now what i don't get is, you complain about me pushing to many people, and yet you seem to agree with most of the people on my list...
A little busy in real life ATM, I've been reading but seen no reason to put myself in the virus or Mets/PCM battles when none are solid cases in my view. If better reasoning comes up I'll vote virus, since that seems to be what you wanted to accomplish by calling me out, but my vote will stay on you until then.
Well you have to change your opinion again since virus has posted. I'm glad to see you are willing to vote to get a vote done if anything. Thing is you could be at least trying to give reads on the game. Currently your only read seems to be "storr is throwing out to many names" which seems lackluster from my eyes, maybe i'm biased about the read who knows.
Apologies for any inconsistencies or repetition in the above. Typed on my phone, just for you Storr.
It's ok, you have several.

[jonty125]

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

[StorrZerg]

@virus concerning mets. I don't think you should be town reading him cause he "defended you" so much. He was explicitly attacking "arguments" for being of poor quality. This is his style of game play, and something like that isn't hard to do as mafia. I'm not calling mets mafia, just stating that read isn't from a good perspective. In fact, the second push i presented against you, he didn't defend. I assume that was cause he thought the second push against you was reasonable and worth looking at.

Virus if you are town. Then i am personally leaning mafia on those who have stated explicitly to vote you because of the early day 1 stuff.

fp by jonty/

Unvote Virus

[StorrZerg]

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

Just cause you wouldn't shoot, doesn't mean he shouldn't shoot. Personally i think he should shoot. I think it does help to collaborate his claim. So jonty, why don't you think he should shoot?

Secondly you can't just state "scummarining" what ever that term is with out calling out anything specifically.

I do think virus should be more specific on his his reads, and less vague.

[Iron Butterfly]

A one shot Vig is all but useless in the first few days and now you say we should let you live to prove your claim? You have just said if we let you live you will use your one shot to act as a distraction to mafia. If you are Town you have no idea who anyone is and would be shooting blindly.

As far as bandwagon voting...more like common sense voting. In the beginning of games I tend to withhold my vote. While I will say I was not fully convinced you were mafia the more you opened your mouth the more it became apparent you were the best person to lynch. A one shot Vig who says they are going to shoot on evening one seals that.

Mets suggested a no lynch, which is stupid and scummy if you ask me. We have no idea how the game is imbalanced and just because it may be does not mean "jesters, and tigers and bombs" oh my. A no lynch is never an option unless Town truly is at a dead end.

[mtamburini]

Storr. My vote stays. You are throwing way too many names around- myself, IB, DJ, Jonty- and trying to get cases to stick. Yes, virus seems scummy to me, but as I recall that's his consistent playing style in other games as well. Also, if memory serves, there is somewhat of a language barrier with him (not much, no offense intended. Your English is great and fooled me for a while), so I try not to read too much into his posts.

Back to you- you get town cred for pushing for votes (but what if it was for a mislynch on Virus? WIFOM?), but that doesn't make you clean. Nice that we are pointing to semi-actives for lynches, but look at people who are a little more active than me, maybe Silver, IB, or someone at that level. Active enough to fly under the radar, but still not much activity. A little busy in real life ATM, I've been reading but seen no reason to put myself in the virus or Mets/PCM battles when none are solid cases in my view. If better reasoning comes up I'll vote virus, since that seems to be what you wanted to accomplish by calling me out, but my vote will stay on you until then.

Apologies for any inconsistencies or repetition in the above. Typed on my phone, just for you Storr.

If you are not going to read into his posts how the f*ck do you try and figure out his alignment

[mtamburini]

Let's be honest. Probably 2 town fighting with pm and mets.

Cool it with each other, look else where for a lynch. I don't see a point lynching either of you guys today.

I KNOW YOU JUST DIDNT SAY THAT, if this was DM group Id rally a to get a noose around your neck but I do not think there is enough time in the day to get that done and I am skeptical of my vote on Virus. GMEOY Storr you have entered my scum list.

One of the big things Ive noticed playing video mafia over the past year is that scum tend to like to point out and use the phrase "2 towns fighting" It helps a lot more than you may think.

I really liked storr for pushing on virus and calling him out on bs but now Im questioning his motives.

[StorrZerg]

tamboooo help me lynch a mafia

and if you are mafia, do me a favor and just start a lynch on your buddy kthx

[mtamburini]

UNVOTE

Am I too late?

[mtamburini]

tamboooo help me lynch a mafia

and if you are mafia, do me a favor and just start a lynch on your buddy kthx

I dont really trust you right now bud sorry.

[mtamburini]

Yeah Im too late if he was at L2 stor and jonty hammered him

[StorrZerg]

Let's be honest. Probably 2 town fighting with pm and mets.

Cool it with each other, look else where for a lynch. I don't see a point lynching either of you guys today.

I KNOW YOU JUST DIDNT SAY THAT, if this was DM group Id rally a to get a noose around your neck but I do not think there is enough time in the day to get that done and I am skeptical of my vote on Virus. GMEOY Storr you have entered my scum list.

One of the big things Ive noticed playing video mafia over the past year is that scum tend to like to point out and use the phrase "2 towns fighting" It helps a lot more than you may think.

I really liked storr for pushing on virus and calling him out on bs but now Im questioning his motives.

you can't really get all upset and boiled up with out explaining. I have a town read on mets, "call it a meta read" from my previous game with him. Now thing is, that game pcm was in that game, how ever he was mafia. Hence why he didn't really interact with mets when mets was hard defending mafia blindy (which he was actually just attacking arguments )

So i see a town pcm getting upset with mets this game, because pcm's alignment has changed since that past game. Personally i got very upset with him in the game i played. We had similar reads, and i tried to push a lynch and then he is entirely against the "READ" not the player. I think this is just his style of play, and it isn't alignment indicative. I'd even venture to say, that a mafia mets would probably be a bit more passive in his approach to the game based on his style of play. I think he attacks the arguments of virus, regardless of his alignment, but he is less aggressive at it.

Secondly, do you think either side has any good argument against each other? They are clearly getting heated up. See i know the answer the question of this, you don't Other wise you would have stepped up and pushed either one.