Krazy Kingdoms [Quenched]

[Armandolas]

One other question. Im playing a poly game. I have one player who does not hold aquatic, but is holding an aquatic bonus(adjacent to seas)
Is that possible?

I don;t see how they would be getting that bonus unless they had aquatic. I am not sure how poly works, do they hold aquatic on one of their other positions?


=D13=

Nop. Aquatic is either held by opposition or is neutral.(fog)None of my players is holding it
(poly works like any team game)

[dolomite13]

One other question. Im playing a poly game. I have one player who does not hold aquatic, but is holding an aquatic bonus(adjacent to seas)
Is that possible?

I don;t see how they would be getting that bonus unless they had aquatic. I am not sure how poly works, do they hold aquatic on one of their other positions?


=D13=

Nop. Aquatic is either held by opposition or is neutral.(fog)None of my players is holding it
(poly works like any team game)

The bonus requires that Aquatic be held so if they don;t have it then it should be impossible for the game to apply that bonus.

Code: Select all

<continent>
   <name>Aquatic - Adjacent to Seas</name>
   <bonuses>
      <bonus required="3">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="5">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="7">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="9">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="11">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="13">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="15">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="17">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="19">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="21">1</bonus>
   </bonuses>
   <components>
      <territory>D2</territory>
      <territory>D3</territory>
      <territory>D4 - Radiation</territory>
      <territory>F2 - Crypts</territory>
      <territory>F4</territory>
      <territory>J2 - Crypts</territory>
      <territory>J4</territory>
      <territory>M2 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>M3</territory>
      <territory>M4 - Minions</territory>
      <territory>P2 - Crypts</territory>
      <territory>P3</territory>
      <territory>P4 - Radiation</territory>
      <territory>S2 - Minions</territory>
      <territory>S3</territory>
      <territory>S4 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>T2 - Mines</territory>
      <territory>T3</territory>
      <territory>T4 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>V3</territory>
      <territory>V2</territory>
      <territory>V4 - Mines</territory>
      <territory type="mandatory">Aquatic</territory>
   </components>
   <required>3</required>
</continent>


<territory>
   <name>Aquatic</name>
   <borders>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>505</smallx>
      <smally>44</smally>
      <largex>676</largex>
      <largey>52</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>


=D13=

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Kingdoms
- change kingdoms to be able to reinforce to favored territories you control.
This would be one way and would not work the opposite direction.
- change kingdoms so they can not assault favored territories that border blood towers.
This would decrease the possible starting territories from 4 to 3 but also limit access to the 8 most important territories on the map.

I like all the proposed changes except for not allowing kingdoms to attack near the blood towers. My main concern with this is you end up potentially screwing someone who has Undead. Three of their four bonuses are on blood tower territories, whereas only one of each other special feature's territories are on the blood towers. Otherwise I think it's a good idea to help slow things down a bit, just seems unfair to the Undead player as the crypt bonuses are currently laid out.

[SiriusCowKing]

We are unable to attack the barbarian horde from our favorite land right now. I seen that in 2 games already, one of which my friend is dragonkin, the other one my friend is human. Both games they have the barbarian power and can't take the horde.

[Donelladan]

You start with 3 troops on your Kingdom, and 3 troops on your Special feature. On your first turn your kingdom will gain 1 troop automatically and you will be granted a +2 deployable bonus. This will result in 6 troops on your kingdom that may assault any of your favored territories to give you a foothold.

Could you update the first post with last rules ? this one at least is wrong.

I have a question concerning the blood towers, is written that having 2 regions that borders 2 differents blood tower will unlock its impassible border. It means, if I do have 2 regions that borders 2 different blood tower that :
M2 could attack T4 ans S4 ?
D4 could attack V1 and P4?
etc...
Am I right?

[Donelladan]

I think I found a bug. Game 14124287

One player has sphinx, Cosmic, and D4.
D4 is favored territory from sphinx so +1.
Cosmic give you +1 for regions with radiation symbole, so D4 should give him a +1.
Total, Sphinx + cosmic + D4 = +2
But he is droping 4 instead of 5.

[BENCLUB]

D3 doesn't work with comic's bonus

and M2 doesn't work with dwellers' bonus

cf; http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=14182831

[dolomite13]

The fix for the issues you are all reporting was posted in January and again a few weeks ago and it has not been uploaded yet.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=177769&start=630#p4443281

=D13=

[b00060]

The best thing about this map, is that it is quite large and allows for a few turns before you really get into it, meaning you have a little better chance of not being obliterated by the time you take your first turn in my opinion. I do have one request for the map though. The key and the board itself are extremely small, so small that I have to struggle to really understand what is what to determine how the bonuses work. Overall though, great addition!

[dolomite13]

The fix for the issues you are all reporting was posted in January and again a few weeks ago and it has not been uploaded yet.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=177769&start=630#p4443281

=D13=

Gilligan any chance we can see this uploaded to the test server?

=D13=

[Gilligan]

The fix for the issues you are all reporting was posted in January and again a few weeks ago and it has not been uploaded yet.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=177769&start=630#p4443281

=D13=

Gilligan any chance we can see this uploaded to the test server?

=D13=

I sent it off to tnb for live upload a while ago.

[betiko]

i don't get the new barbarian and demonic... do they reset to neutral? do they autodeploy? none of the above? are they basically both the same thing now?

[blindman30]

playing the map and have a question. BoB shows F1 and T4 being able to attack each other but in the game its a one way assault. F1 can attack t4 but T4 can not attack F1

[Donelladan]

BOB is wrong for this map.
Read everything carefully and you will understand the connection.

BOB can't because some connnection are only there under certain conditions. BOB doesn't understand the condition so it is telling you can, why you can't.

But the map is correct for the connections.
The bonus on the other hand, still waiting for the XML updates

[dolomite13]

i don't get the new barbarian and demonic... do they reset to neutral? do they autodeploy? none of the above? are they basically both the same thing now?

In the proposed changes they start neutral and when you take them you have them just like any territory. They are a way to slow initial expansion just a bit especially in trench games. And you give the added bonus of an off map territory that you can assault from that cant be seen by your opponents at all in fog games except by the forbidden lands.

=D13=

[dolomite13]

Does anyone think allowing a connection from your special feature to your kingdom provided you have a kingdom would help in allowing you to move troops that get stuck there when you turn in a set and help make it a bit more fair and balanced?

=D13=

[Frogmanx82]

I'm playing a game and have caverns but the bonus doesn't seem to be applied as indicated on the map. I had to have 3 of them just to get 1 bonus.

I don't think allowing the use of the special feature troops works with the intention they were made for. Its still fair. Stranding troops from turning in a set is like not having a match territory so its not a problem.

[Donelladan]

Can the special feature be nuked? I think you can connect special feature to kingdom. That wouldn't change anything to me, and would help people that deploy there at their first turn.
But not really important stuff for me.

[dolomite13]

I'm playing a game and have caverns but the bonus doesn't seem to be applied as indicated on the map. I had to have 3 of them just to get 1 bonus.

Their are a few bugs that we hope to get resolved shortly.I am currently awaiting a deployment to the test server so I can test the bonuses and get those fixes into production.

I don't think allowing the use of the special feature troops works with the intention they were made for. Its still fair. Stranding troops from turning in a set is like not having a match territory so its not a problem.

So very true. It could be said that those stranded troops represent the extra troops you could rally from the indigenous people based on your special feature. I know its a strategy in games where you can redeploy anywhere to reinforce from those territories early in the game. I think I saw it used that way in several 1v1 games I have played.

=D13=

[dolomite13]

Don't Panic

I know there is a lot to digest here but I think that the changes I am proposing here will make the map even more playable. Please read my notes to see my reasoning.

All comments are welcome.

=D13=

========================================================================================

Bonuses
+1/3 (Min +3) attached to basic lands (as it should have been).
- No standard Territory Bonus back in effect.
This change should smooth out the early game just a bit so it is harder to knock someone off the map early and pretty much keep them off the map.

Wizards
- Require holding territories that border 2 blood towers to allow the teleport (instead of 2 territories that border a blood tower)
Right now its too easy to take 2 territories and jump around the map for wizards. This will make it just a bit slower.

Barbarians
- Horde 3n (down from 5n)
- Horde required to grant the +1 per 3 basic land added bonus
This will make it necessary to take the horde to get the added bonus and may promote use of the horde as a way to travel around the board easier. I rarely see anyone use the horde as it is currently implemented.

Demonic
- Underworld 3n (down from 5n)
- Basic bonus +1 per minion (removed the added +1/2)
- Underworld required for an additional +1 per minion bonus
Similar to the horde the underworld seems to be unused by players. By tying an added bonus to it, it may now start seeing play.

Dwellers
- change the 4 caverns +2 to "for every cavern and crypt you hold you get +1" (max +4)
Being able to jump around the map for free is powerful but spreading out around the map can also work against you. This change will now only grant you more bonus troops if you also focus on holding crypts and will put some pressure on the undead player.

Cosmic
- change the 2 radiation +1* to "for every mines and radiation you hold you get +1" (max +4).
Cosmic gets some nice abilities once they get to 2 territories this change will make them want to branch out a bit and make the "miners" a bit nervous.

Seas
- changed to start 1n down from 2n
- now killer 1 down from 2
With land being 3n and people leaving 1 troop behind quite often it can be much more attractive to go around seas that to cut through them for the aquatic player. This drop to 1n may make it worthwhile.

Kingdoms
- change kingdoms to be able to reinforce to favored territories you control.
This would be one way and would not work the opposite direction.
- change kingdoms so they can not assault favored territories that border blood towers.
This would decrease the possible starting territories from 4 to 3 but also limit access to the 8 most important territories on the map.

Chasms
- removing chasms and connecting the land permanently across them for all player
because the start areas are no longer the #1 of each basic land type (S1, M1, T1 etc...) players can no longer exploit the short routs between them so the extra complication is unnecessary

Blood Towers
- these were moved to the outer edge of the map and now have much more space between them.
This change will force players to start closer together because of the change to kingdoms and make it harder to get the two blood towers required to assault the forbidden lands. I also think that wizards may be able to manage a +2 bonus early but getting to that second tower will not be easy and will balance it out a bit.

Badlands
- I added two new territories near the center of the map that are killer 5.
This will take a bit of the pressure off of J3 and F3 as they are serious choke points and often stopped teammates from getting from one side of the map to the other. The high cost will dissuade early use and the fact that they are "Killer" will make them situational use only. It is possible they should only be killer 3 or 2 and this is open for discussion.

[Dukasaur]

Don't make any changes would be my advice.

The map was VERY difficult to understand. However, after three or four games, I'm getting the hang of it. Bottom line, that's what it boils down to: if you don't give up, if you patiently read the legend over and over until you finally understand, the map turns out to be rewarding.

[dolomite13]

Don't make any changes would be my advice.

I know but I really want to address some issues that I have seen while playing the map and try to get a little more balance. All of the above changes are negotiable but I have been thinking about them quite a lot for the past few months and think they will make the map even better.

=D13=

[thenobodies80]

dolomite, could you please provide a description for the map?
The files will be uploaded as soon as we have a description for the map since now it's a mandatory field.

thanks in advance
Nobodies

[Donelladan]

Bonuses
+1/3 (Min +3) attached to basic lands (as it should have been).
- No standard Territory Bonus back in effect.
This change should smooth out the early game just a bit so it is harder to knock someone off the map early and pretty much keep them off the map.

I don't get it. What means "No standard territory bonus back in effect", your first line "+1/3 (Min +3) attached to basic lands (as it should have been)." means that you will use the standard territory bonus.
Could you give an example with what we have now and what we would have?

Right now on the legend of the map it is written 3 red start give you a +1, so no difference between what we have now and what you describe or?

Barbarians
- Horde 3n (down from 5n)
- Horde required to grant the +1 per 3 basic land added bonus
This will make it necessary to take the horde to get the added bonus and may promote use of the horde as a way to travel around the board easier. I rarely see anyone use the horde as it is currently implemented.

I don't know if reducing the horde to 3 is good or not because I did not have this special feature often so far.
But concerning the bonus, forcing to hold the horde to have the extra bonus is quite bad I think.
Other special features like cosmic, demonic and dwellers can have a +2 by taking only 3 neutrals. You'll force people with horde to take 12 neutrals ( 3 basic land + hordes) to have a +3 ( or +4) ( +1/favored territory, +1 for 3 basic land like for everyone, +1 for the horde bonus because you have 3 basic land - potentially another +1 because 2 territory adjacent to your favorite).
So I compare +2 for 3 neutrals to +4 for 12 neutrals. I am not sure if it is good idea to force people to take the horde.

Demonic
- Underworld 3n (down from 5n)
- Basic bonus +1 per minion (removed the added +1/2)
- Underworld required for an additional +1 per minion bonus
Similar to the horde the underworld seems to be unused by players. By tying an added bonus to it, it may now start seeing play.

I always take underworld when I have it. Awesome bonus for me. If you don't remove the +1 for 2 at least.

- Underworld required for an additional +1 per minion bonus

You mean that the 1st minion i take give me +1, but for the 2nd minion to give me +1 i need underworld. Or , the 1st minion i take give me +1 only if I have the underworld?

Dwellers
- change the 4 caverns +2 to "for every cavern and crypt you hold you get +1" (max +4)
Being able to jump around the map for free is powerful but spreading out around the map can also work against you. This change will now only grant you more bonus troops if you also focus on holding crypts and will put some pressure on the undead player.

I find undead player bonus to be the worse on the map, and you want to give a +1/crypt for the dwellers???
Dwellers is awesome, only player that have all his +1 bonus connected to each other directly. All this other conditional bonus ask you to have at least 2 territory to work. This one works with the 1st one. Do not give him a +1/crypt extra.

Cosmic
- change the 2 radiation +1* to "for every mines and radiation you hold you get +1" (max +4).
Cosmic gets some nice abilities once they get to 2 territories this change will make them want to branch out a bit and make the "miners" a bit nervous.

Also very good bonus imo, why you want to give them a +1/mines.

Consider, Dwellers and Cosmic are bonus that get a +1 for their 1st regions They very often will start with a +2 once they take their favored land. And you are giving them an extra possibility to get +1, possibly by a neigboring region (P4 and T1 for cosmic/mines or M2/P3 for dwellers/mines).

I add, if we take all your previous remark, you make it more difficult for Barbarian and Demonic to get +1, and you give extra one to Cosmic and and Dwellers.
Also consider a players getting Dwellers and Miners bonus at the same times.

Btw I dislike miner as much as undead because they both need TWO regions to get a bonus and both of them give you no extra connection. So it is like hell to go fetch extra bonus.
I never use player that have Miners and Undead when I am playing team games, i also don't use those feature when I play 1vs1 games.
Maybe you have been playing more multiplayers games. But I am quite sure for 1vs1 and team games your change are giving more advantage to special fetaures that are already good.

Kingdoms
- change kingdoms to be able to reinforce to favored territories you control.
This would be one way and would not work the opposite direction.
- change kingdoms so they can not assault favored territories that border blood towers.
This would decrease the possible starting territories from 4 to 3 but also limit access to the 8 most important territories on the map.

I don't see why you consider blood towers being the most important territory on the maps. Only advantage is to give you possibility to take forbidden lands, but you don't do it unless games is already won for you anyway. Only exception is if you are playing escalating but otherwise I don't find blood towers having any interest, I'll never attack them if I don't hold the special feature wizard.
Also, if you do that you are disavantaging hugely the players with special feature wizard, he becomes only one that can't attack the regions with his special feature ability.

- change kingdoms to be able to reinforce to favored territories you control.

Why not. But does it also means that you will be always able to attack from your kingdoms your favored territory?
I explain, right now, once I took one favored territory, I can't attack anymore from my kingdom. Making the change you suppose, since for me forting way are attacking way, if you allow one way for to favore territory, to you also allow one way attack for favored territory also after you took one?

Chasms
- removing chasms and connecting the land permanently across them for all player
because the start areas are no longer the #1 of each basic land type (S1, M1, T1 etc...) players can no longer exploit the short routs between them so the extra complication is unnecessary

I like the complication so far. I am not sure for who is good or not. I don't mind that changes, I also don't mind it say the same. Of course it is a complexity that gave me some stress during my 1st games because I didnt notice it.

Blood Towers
- these were moved to the outer edge of the map and now have much more space between them.
This change will force players to start closer together because of the change to kingdoms and make it harder to get the two blood towers required to assault the forbidden lands. I also think that wizards may be able to manage a +2 bonus early but getting to that second tower will not be easy and will balance it out a bit.

I like it because I always took blood towers directly next to the forbidden land to attack them. It make the game more difficult to go for a kill. Will improve escalating game.

Badlands
- I added two new territories near the center of the map that are killer 5.
This will take a bit of the pressure off of J3 and F3 as they are serious choke points and often stopped teammates from getting from one side of the map to the other. The high cost will dissuade early use and the fact that they are "Killer" will make them situational use only. It is possible they should only be killer 3 or 2 and this is open for discussion.

Highly probable that I would never use those killer neutral 5. Put them to 2 maximum if you want us to use them. Even 1 should be considered. You minimum lose 1 troops by taking them and they don't give you any advantage other than a new connection. I say try with 2 and consider 1 for the future.

[dolomite13]

Great stuff Donelladan ... I see your point on much of the proposed changes and will reply later when I have a few hours to digest it all.

=D13=