Adjustments to league format for CL6?

[IcePack]

any news about adjustment,,, its February start, so this need to be work on all this, so that league start on time.

It's being worked on.

[uckuki]

relegation/promotion is the only sensible way to go. that's what league system is for and it would make the
whole thing a whole lot better, instead of scrambling every year to reinvent the wheal. new clans have to work
bottom-up, earn their place. those who cancel or quit get reclassified as newcomers. if a clan quits or whatnot,
we just promote an extra clan - have same number of clans (at least in the 1sd and 2nd division) year in year out.
it's the simplest and easiest way. why start the process from scratch every year? it's ok to have minor changes from
year to year, but system has to stay the same. and frankly those clans who were in the premier league have earned
their spot. everything else is bullshit.

[Lindax]

relegation/promotion is the only sensible way to go. that's what league system is for and it would make the
whole thing a whole lot better, instead of scrambling every year to reinvent the wheal. new clans have to work
bottom-up, earn their place. those who cancel or quit get reclassified as newcomers. if a clan quits or whatnot,
we just promote an extra clan - have same number of clans (at least in the 1sd and 2nd division) year in year out.
it's the simplest and easiest way. why start the process from scratch every year? it's ok to have minor changes from
year to year, but system has to stay the same. and frankly those clans who were in the premier league have earned
their spot. everything else is bullshit.

I tend to agree. However, the majority apparently doesn't.

Lx

[Donelladan]

I tend to agree. However, the majority apparently doesn't.

I didnt notice the poll, did we vote? We shouldn't confuse majority of posters and majority of clan players.
I don't know what would be the result of a voting but it should be done imo.

[iAmCaffeine]

Promotion/relegation is the way forward.

[IcePack]

I tend to agree. However, the majority apparently doesn't.

I didnt notice the poll, did we vote? We shouldn't confuse majority of posters and majority of clan players.
I don't know what would be the result of a voting but it should be done imo.

There was a vote in the CDF group, with clan leaders. There was 6 votes by clans for a "major" change (defiinition of major change specifically included promo/relegation).

[friendly1]

There was voting in CDF, but discussion was not permitted:

This thread is not (yet) meant for discussion, only for voting. If this turns into a discussion thread it will be locked and nobody can vote anymore.

[Leehar]

I admit one of my deepest reservations for the promotion/relegation system, specially for this next league, is that because of some clans not competing in the final cl5 leagues for myriad reasons, the competitiveness of the format as a whole would be severely diminished, as they'd inevitably need to come up from the bottom rung.

This means that at least 5 of the top 10 clans per the F400 (Tofu, Pack, TSM, ACE & ATL) would essentially start in the 3rd league, which needless to say ruins the format significantly. If it was a less significant portion of the top tier ineligible, perhaps we could have continued irregardless, but the sheer number of top clans not competing in cl5 yet potentially competing in cl6 would make a mockery of the format.
It is beyond doubt that the third league will be a complete wash, there may be a few surprises, but the large majority is likely to be blow-outs, which is unappealing for either party. With the yearly cycle and only the 2 being promoted, that state of events would continue for a couple of years & I wouldn't be surprised if both lower ranked & the aforementioned clans didn't compete because there would be little point in those battles. And with the yearly cycle and only the 2 being promoted.
The same could be said for the Premier League, because again the competitiveness decreases significantly without half of the top clans that belong there, at least on paper, which results in somewhat hollow victories. Perhaps some would prefer that outcome, but that may stem from the benefit to their clan, rather than for the league as a whole.
The current Qualifying Groups are at least an improvement on both the above possibilities, in that even if top & lower ranked clans compete, there is still the competitiveness factor of needing to ensure promotion into the respective leagues, while for the latter instance ensuring if those aforementioned clans don't qualify, the participation of others is based on merit rather than more intangible factors.


I'm somewhat surprised at the likes of TSM & Tofu's support of promotion/relegation, since I think the former has put it on record that their participation is subject to where they are placed, & the latter's past history(random league) also suggested that they would not compete.
Did they assume they'd just be placed in PL based on their standing alone?

[iAmCaffeine]

Then, for the first time using a promotion/relegation system, base the rankings off the F400.

[Dako]

I can say that if you hold back because some of the clans didn't participate in CL5 then why don't you seed them differently (ie based on F400 or something like that)? If you fear that promotion system will take many years to stabilize then make CL shorter than yearly event or re-seed people. It is a poor decision to throw good idea away just because you can't be flexible enough for it.

But I want to remind you that TOFU started in 2009 in lower division of clan league and took 1st place without effort (80%+ win rate) just because they were denied straight entrance into 1st division. Those were the rule it was perfectly fine with us, we can start wherever we are placed.

The only thing that makes us hesitate is the effect on F400 rankings. You need to win like 11-1 vs lower ranked clan not to lose points. And luck just doesn't permit to win with such margin.

[Foxglove]

I don't think a promotion/relegation system would work well for us (the clans in general).

There are the difficulties with the initial seeding, and those same difficulties will recur year after year. New (strong) clans form and established strong clans sometimes sit out years or withdraw mid-competition.

And to those people who would say "tough - if a clan doesn't play or withdraws then they start at the bottom" - it will ruin the spirit of the tiered leagues, I think, if we constantly have the lower tiers being trounced by experienced clans that have to start from the bottom (for whatever reason).

[Bruceswar]

I don't think a promotion/relegation system would work well for us (the clans in general).

There are the difficulties with the initial seeding, and those same difficulties will recur year after year. New (strong) clans form and established strong clans sometimes sit out years or withdraw mid-competition.

And to those people who would say "tough - if a clan doesn't play or withdraws then they start at the bottom" - it will ruin the spirit of the tiered leagues, I think, if we constantly have the lower tiers being trounced by experienced clans that have to start from the bottom (for whatever reason).

+1

[iAmCaffeine]

I don't think a promotion/relegation system would work well for us (the clans in general).

There are the difficulties with the initial seeding, and those same difficulties will recur year after year. New (strong) clans form and established strong clans sometimes sit out years or withdraw mid-competition.

And to those people who would say "tough - if a clan doesn't play or withdraws then they start at the bottom" - it will ruin the spirit of the tiered leagues, I think, if we constantly have the lower tiers being trounced by experienced clans that have to start from the bottom (for whatever reason).

+1

-1

Using the F400 basically solves this. Just look at ATL and ACE now.

[Foxglove]

I don't think a promotion/relegation system would work well for us (the clans in general).

There are the difficulties with the initial seeding, and those same difficulties will recur year after year. New (strong) clans form and established strong clans sometimes sit out years or withdraw mid-competition.

And to those people who would say "tough - if a clan doesn't play or withdraws then they start at the bottom" - it will ruin the spirit of the tiered leagues, I think, if we constantly have the lower tiers being trounced by experienced clans that have to start from the bottom (for whatever reason).

+1

-1

Using the F400 basically solves this. Just look at ATL and ACE now.

If we re-seed every year though that basically negates any promotion/relegation that might happen.

[Lindax]

Then, for the first time using a promotion/relegation system, base the rankings off the F400.

That's how I would do it.

Lx

[Foxglove]

Then, for the first time using a promotion/relegation system, base the rankings off the F400.

That's how I would do it.

Lx

It makes sense... for one year at a time. But what happens next year or the year after when new clans form or established clans sit out or withdraw? Aka, the position we are in now?

I'm not trying to cause trouble, btw. I just think that the situation we find ourselves in this year is not unique, so whatever system we adopt should ideally be flexible enough to account for changes in clan participation while keeping each tier/group/whatever competitive.

[iAmCaffeine]

Then, for the first time using a promotion/relegation system, base the rankings off the F400.

That's how I would do it.

Lx

It makes sense... for one year at a time. But what happens next year or the year after when new clans form or established clans sit out or withdraw? Aka, the position we are in now?

I'm not trying to cause trouble, btw. I just think that the situation we find ourselves in this year is not unique, so whatever system we adopt should ideally be flexible enough to account for changes in clan participation while keeping each tier/group/whatever competitive.

I was suggesting that we use the F400 for the first year of implementing the relegation/promotion system. Then in the following years it follows however the league played out the previous year.

Then, for the first time using a promotion/relegation system, base the rankings off the F400.

When a new clan is formed they start from the bottom, unless it's a situation like ACE where the position of the merged clans should be taken into consideration to provide balance.

[Dako]

It makes sense... for one year at a time. But what happens next year or the year after when new clans form or established clans sit out or withdraw? Aka, the position we are in now?

I'm not trying to cause trouble, btw. :) I just think that the situation we find ourselves in this year is not unique, so whatever system we adopt should ideally be flexible enough to account for changes in clan participation while keeping each tier/group/whatever competitive.

Every new clan gets into the League based on their F400 rank. I doubt we will see many new clans that are top-5 appear out of nowhere.

[Leehar]

I'm not seeing how any of those recommendations are preferable to using the qualifying groups (based on f400 rankings) & deciding the final league teams based on merit(and in point of fact, an example of promotion/relegation on a smaller scale) rather than seedings alone. There is nothing preventing us from using that as an easier transition to full-on promotion/relegation for CL5, depending on the feasibility of the format (I'm having my team look into it from a practicality standpoint considering the discussion engendered around longevity etc).


When ACE formed, my understanding was that perceptionally people would have been opposed to the idea of them joining the premier league immediately. Was that not the case? Because the F400 did take at least 6 months to more accurately show their ability.
Now with the new Dynasty/TFFS merger, how would they be treated equitably(Taking into account that both those clans have been top 15 in their prime & Intriguingly finalists in ), both for their own positioning & for their opposition.
There have been a host of other dropped clans as well as new & not-so-new clans that have unfortunately not been taken into account by the f400 as yet (eg the smaller war/tlw merger) which would take at least the aforementioned 6 months to stabilise their ranking.
Would people actually buy-in to a flexible entry criteria which may or may not solve the applicable concerns?

[uckuki]

I wanted to say a lot of things but I'll keep it somewhat cool.

how about we all just pretend that relegation/promotion system wasn't agreed to last season?
like it never happened

I say let top 5 clans get together and decide everything, and just notify us when they are done?
since it's their points/ranking and fun of playing what matters most, us lesser beings should just
step aside and stop bothering them. who's with me?


1 clan 1 vote? c'mon that's so 1960s.


that's my proposition: only top 5 clans have a say in how CL6 wheels out?
please vote

[Keefie]

I wanted to say a lot of things but I'll keep it somewhat cool.

how about we all just pretend that relegation/promotion system wasn't agreed to last season?
like it never happened

I say let top 5 clans get together and decide everything, and just notify us when they are done?
since it's their points/ranking and fun of playing what matters most, us lesser beings should just
step aside and stop bothering them. who's with me?


1 clan 1 vote? c'mon that's so 1960s.


that's my proposition: only top 5 clans have a say in how CL6 wheels out?
please vote

If this post is in response to the previous post by Leehar, then may I remind you of the clans that the CD's are in.

Leehar - ACE
Chemefreak - The Legion
Keefie - Headless Horsemen
Icepack - The Fallen
The Crown - Gladiators of Noxious
Nicky15 - One Step Ahead
Lindax - Not a clan member

Only 1 top 5 clan rep there.

Also may I remind you that there has been a recent 1 clan/1 vote in the CDF regarding changes in the competition format.

15 clans voted against major changes including promotion/relegation.
6 clans voted for.

Look I have been in favour of promotion/relegation since it was first heralded. However, I will also be involved in the organisation of the competition and I can see the potential pitfalls. The biggest problem that CD's see is the turnover from one year to another, this has the potential to make a complete mockery of promotion/relegation as more clans will be elevated each year due to dropouts from the previous year. Here's some analysis that I've done that clearly shows the size of the problem.

Promotion/relegation may sound like an exciting way forward for the Clan League and there are supporters of it among the CD's. However it just may end up being totally impractical.

CL1 - Entries = 14

CL2 - Entries = 21
of which
8 Dropouts
6 Played in CL1
15 are new

CL3 - Entries = 24
of which
9 Dropouts
12 played in CL2
12 are new

CL4 - Entries = 39
of which
6 Dropouts
18 played in CL3
21 are new

CL5 - Entries = 36
of which
8 Dropouts
31 played in CL4
5 are new

CL6 - Potential for 46
of which
7 Dropouts
29 played in CL5
17 new clans

* New clans include any active clan that didn't play in the previous years competition.

[Dako]

Those are some serious stats. But what if we make league mandatory? I mean every clan has to participate no matter what. It's almost the same for football, right?

And then you will not have so many new clans and dropouts. Plus make the season smaller, not one year but 6 months or so.

[friendly1]

I admit one of my deepest reservations for the promotion/relegation system, specially for this next league, is that because of some clans not competing in the final cl5 leagues for myriad reasons, the competitiveness of the format as a whole would be severely diminished, as they'd inevitably need to come up from the bottom rung.

This means that at least 5 of the top 10 clans per the F400 (Tofu, Pack, TSM, ACE & ATL) would essentially start in the 3rd league, which needless to say ruins the format significantly. If it was a less significant portion of the top tier ineligible, perhaps we could have continued irregardless, but the sheer number of top clans not competing in cl5 yet potentially competing in cl6 would make a mockery of the format.
It is beyond doubt that the third league will be a complete wash, there may be a few surprises, but the large majority is likely to be blow-outs, which is unappealing for either party. With the yearly cycle and only the 2 being promoted, that state of events would continue for a couple of years & I wouldn't be surprised if both lower ranked & the aforementioned clans didn't compete because there would be little point in those battles. And with the yearly cycle and only the 2 being promoted.
The same could be said for the Premier League, because again the competitiveness decreases significantly without half of the top clans that belong there, at least on paper, which results in somewhat hollow victories. Perhaps some would prefer that outcome, but that may stem from the benefit to their clan, rather than for the league as a whole.
The current Qualifying Groups are at least an improvement on both the above possibilities, in that even if top & lower ranked clans compete, there is still the competitiveness factor of needing to ensure promotion into the respective leagues, while for the latter instance ensuring if those aforementioned clans don't qualify, the participation of others is based on merit rather than more intangible factors.

Thank you for this!!! Opens the door for discussion while also explaining where the direction is focused and why. It doesn't derail the process (I don't believe) in any way, and its a very very good explanation.

I'm somewhat surprised at the likes of TSM & Tofu's support of promotion/relegation, since I think the former has put it on record that their participation is subject to where they are placed, & the latter's past history(random league) also suggested that they would not compete.

TSM didn't play in CL5 due to the format. In the poll run in CDF for CL6, the option was for major changes and promotion/relegation were lumped together. TSM chose not to play last year and may choose not to play this year due to the format (which has been decided is staying relatively the same). It doesn't have anything to do with relegation/promotion. But I can pretty confidently say if we were to start in a relegated league in an event we already chose to bypass once because we did not like the format then I'm pretty confident our clan won't be joining. Of course I'll refrain from formal decisions until a clan decision is made, I've been surprised before!
If there had ever been the opportunity to discuss changes in CDF this could have been explained. Which is why I was so critical of the poll which denied any discussion.

I get how you could have misunderstood this though, here's my original post last year about CL6

Has it been determined who will be responsible for CL6?

I think there are lots of questions and while I'm not looking for a specific organizer for the event I'd like to know who will be making the decisions surrounding rule changes or not, format changes or not, relegation/promotion rules, etc.

Apologies if this is explained elsewhere, TSM chose not to partake in CL5 so I'm curious what impact that will have on placement in CL6 (as that's quite likely going to factor into our decision to enter or not). Considering some heavy volume wars next year if we don't participate.

Not in any hurry with this, but figured it's better to start down this road with lots of time available to discuss. With the additional CD's I thought perhaps some areas may have been designated (can't see one CD being outright responsible for the entirety, but maybe that's the case)9

Thanks!

F1

Pretty easy to misinterpret that to mean that placement would determine whether we were joining.

Did they assume they'd just be placed in PL based on their standing alone?

Now this... well I delayed responding a couple of times just to let the blood cool down. Seems it hasn't though.
There's a loss of respect for you here Leehar. I don't appreciate your taking low class potshots from the "pulpit" of the head clan directors sandbox. Bad form Sir.

[WPBRJ]

I have to say without wanting any part of all of the discussion and with all the knowledge of actually running one of the clan leagues with by the way was the biggest year on record that there is no right answer to anything. No matter what any one person or in this case the CD’s no matter what is discussed no matter what is decided on there will be unhappy people. The harder any one tries to make it fair and everyone happy the more complex it gets and the more the majority will not like it. And most will not say anything about it ether.

I also have to say it is not as fun as it used to be! It’s so complex it just isn’t fun and I was always under the impression that we want to win but at the same time if we lose let’s hope we had fun. Year after year after year it gets more complex to make the few happy and most just want to play game and have fun.

I personally think we should go back to the basics like season 1 and 2 keep it simple! You win you advance you lose you go back. Top clans are always playing the top clans, your middle clans will always be playing middle clans and the lower end clans will always be playing against the clans they can compete with. Your clan drops out fine your out your out no getting back in your out. You’re out of all main events as well or anything that’s sanctioned by competitive clans. All competitive clans are in and it’s a requirement to be a completive clan just like the number 1 rule. You’re out you’re not recognized by the competitive clan world and your stripped out of everything f400 clan wars will not be recognized nothing. If we all stick together on this no one will drop out.

Then again I am sure no one really cares what I have to say and that’s fine I am okay with this. It’s just my thoughts and from past experience SIMPLE ID BETTER. Complex does not work and never will. It’s impossible to make every clan happy. It’s even more impossibly to make every player happy

The new clan i am in will play what ever you all come up with and try and do our best. I can go on forever but for now that’s all I have to say.

Just my 2 cents

WPBRJ

[iAmCaffeine]

I have to say without wanting any part of all of the discussion and with all the knowledge of actually running one of the clan leagues with by the way was the biggest year on record that there is no right answer to anything. No matter what any one person or in this case the CD’s no matter what is discussed no matter what is decided on there will be unhappy people. The harder any one tries to make it fair and everyone happy the more complex it gets and the more the majority will not like it. And most will not say anything about it ether.

I also have to say it is not as fun as it used to be! It’s so complex it just isn’t fun and I was always under the impression that we want to win but at the same time if we lose let’s hope we had fun. Year after year after year it gets more complex to make the few happy and most just want to play game and have fun.

I personally think we should go back to the basics like season 1 and 2 keep it simple! You win you advance you lose you go back. Top clans are always playing the top clans, your middle clans will always be playing middle clans and the lower end clans will always be playing against the clans they can compete with. Your clan drops out fine your out your out no getting back in your out. You’re out of all main events as well or anything that’s sanctioned by competitive clans. All competitive clans are in and it’s a requirement to be a completive clan just like the number 1 rule. You’re out you’re not recognized by the competitive clan world and your stripped out of everything f400 clan wars will not be recognized nothing. If we all stick together on this no one will drop out.

Then again I am sure no one really cares what I have to say and that’s fine I am okay with this. It’s just my thoughts and from past experience SIMPLE ID BETTER. Complex does not work and never will. It’s impossible to make every clan happy. It’s even more impossibly to make every player happy

The new clan i am in will play what ever you all come up with and try and do our best. I can go on forever but for now that’s all I have to say.

Just my 2 cents

WPBRJ

+1