Summer vs. Winter Mafia (6/13) Game Over. Mafia (Winter) Won

[ghostly447]

i don't have a good reason for voting IB since he's already claimed, while i agree it's an easy fake claim, and the flavour and role color bothers me..i didn't vote for him D1 and N1 didn't yield much activity, doesn't look like anyone else is coming forward with new information at this point? maybe because it was labor day weekend in the states and activity was down but i'll continue to no vote for now and reread

still a lot of time until deadline and by the latest VC, he's only at L3 not L2 like ghostly's post says

Ahh, but it seems we do have some information. A vote stealer perhaps? Or was it a mod miscount?

Sorry for the inactivity, just havent had much to say...

well, you could give an opinion on IB.

I agree, sorry I wasnt mentally prepared to write anything. Because of IB's color differentiations from the correct color, I will vote IB. Dismissing it as "If I cut and pasted it it would be a problem" doesnt cut it to me because IMO, if the colors are in the OP, it wouldnt be quoting, it would be retyping and the colors being the same wouldnt matter, because most players generally want the color with your claim and so the mods (from my experience) generally understand that that's ok (or at least thats how I ran my games...).

greg, safari, and kgb all missed this and its at the top of the page. Right above mine. The one that, incidentally, kgb managed to reference as to putting him at L3, not L2 as stated by myself.

FOS Kgb

[gregwolf121]

Sorry for the inactivity, just havent had much to say...

well, you could give an opinion on IB.

I agree, sorry I wasnt mentally prepared to write anything. Because of IB's color differentiations from the correct color, I will vote IB. Dismissing it as "If I cut and pasted it it would be a problem" doesnt cut it to me because IMO, if the colors are in the OP, it wouldnt be quoting, it would be retyping and the colors being the same wouldnt matter, because most players generally want the color with your claim and so the mods (from my experience) generally understand that that's ok (or at least thats how I ran my games...).

greg, safari, and kgb all missed this and its at the top of the page. Right above mine. The one that, incidentally, kgb managed to reference as to putting him at L3, not L2 as stated by myself.

FOS Kgb

not sure what it was that i missed, cause i didn't say anything about the vote count and i did comment of the IB case.

[Fircoal]

Well I have looked through the thread and I have a couple of comments to make. I hope that the lot of you find them revealing. First of all I would like to point the fingers at two spefic players. Let's start with you Butterfly of Iron.

I have noticed that you have been voted on quite heavily recently. First of all I would like to say that I agree with this position and where it not for the Butterfly of Iron being so close to being lynched I would be voting for him myself. HEre is what I want to point out:

So you never noticed on your role pm?

Of course I noticed my role pm and its color.

You did not answer my question. Answering my question with a question avoids and deflects my original question on the situation.

You either believe a made an honest mistake OR you believe I had some strategy in mind.

I don't believe that there are just these 2 option. You could be anything. You could be a third party. I will say that I do not think you are extremely stupid because clearly you are not but I can't say that you seem town to me. Surely you can see why what you did is making some of us suspicious of you?

The suspicion is on me simply and solely because I got the colors wrong in my very first statement. I have explained why.

Besides the color mixup I want you to explain how I have not "seemed" like town. I made a mistake and have spent the entire time since that first post explaining what happened.

So explain how town is suppose to act in this situation.

More important no one has been able to explain how my initial statement/question would help my faction in any way.

if I was Winter it does not help. If I am Summer it does not help. If I am third party it does not help.

Stubbs just conveniently jumped the bandwagon with no comment whatsoever.

Butterfly of Iron, I think you are misunderstanding just what is the problem here. You are trying to ask us what good would this do for your faction, and you claim no matter what faction you are it does no good for you. However that isn't even the right question to be asking. They are two questions to be asking. Why would you post something about the colors? And what did YOUR POST do to help your faction? Let's look over the post again:

The game is Summer vs Winter. Winter did the killing so I assume they are mafia (red). Why would a Summer VT be orange?? Could it be that Summer has a cult leader that must recruit Summer VTs?

While there is a problem that you are unable to see that the VT should be an orange color (this should be obvious from the start) but rather the words that you put with it. You don't ask why the VT is orange. You postulate that BECAUSE the VT is orange they could be a cult. These two are very different questions. One of them is just trying to get information out there, which I agree wouldn't do much for any faction because everyone knows it. However the assumption that you tried to make could potentially help out certain factions. If it weren't for the fact that no one went with it.
Imagine this scenario: No one knows that you are lying and try go with you. What does this mean? This puts the shift of the factions. Suddenly this VT that might be a cult or something seems much more lynchable. Not only that but it throws doubt into the whole game. Basically you but the Summer faction into the roll of the bad guy. Now who would this benefit. I think it's easy to see who would gain from that. Not only is it misdirection (wonderful for mafia), it is misdirection in the form of being out other targets that could be town. If you truely did not know about the colors it is very possible that THIS was what you were trying to go far. Now tell me, Butterfly of Iron, how pro-town of an action is that?


The next of you is Mr. Safariguy. You were the first person to bring this game out of the joke vote stage. You posted the game changing post right here:

In my book the amount of time befor my first post is about as good as any reson you'll have on day one

And you are saying??.....

Again with the whole "wait until a case is presented by someone else". If you're mafia, that's a perfect way to not draw attention to yourself because the more you talk the more likely you are to make a mistake/draw a cop investigation on yourself.

Pretty sure I'm already voting him but just in case (and seriously this time)
unvote vote Hensow

There are a couple of problems I find here. The first of which is I'm not sure how you can even understand what he is saying. I can't really make ends or tales of something. The second of which is I don't believe Hensow is the most experienced of mafia players, unlike you Mr. Safariguy. I think there is probably good reason for him to believe that day 1 won't go anywhere. I have played with many players who thought the same and that didn't make them scum or not scum. However your twisting of his words and wrapping them in the shape of a good early bandwagon is somewhat suspicious. Let's not forget that there are other ways of enacting the same strategy you accused him to doing, such as scumarining. But of course no one would scumarine in this game.
Wait there were at least 10 prods this game?


Another interesting case is how you handled the situation with Iron Butterfly. Let's look at all of the posts you made about the situation. As one of the more active vets I expect a lot. ;3

The issue I have with voting him is that we have confirmed vanilla's in the game with TFO. I know it will lead to easy fake claims, but something in my gut says he isn't lying about his role. I am willing to through my gut aside if it comes to it and vote him. But with this evidence I don't really bye into it.

True, but the problem is that mafia could just as well be using the VT defense. I feel that the color mix up was not a big deal, but that IB's defense in regards to the color difference was less than convincing.

vote IB

Oh.... That's it? A bandwagon vote with no reason other than. It's mafia that could be using the VT defense? Looking at this game so far it seems there are VT's in here. It's perfectly valid to claim one, and obviously you have to have more reason to think someone is lying than being a VT. However you produce nothing. It's funny. When the deadline was coming and the case on Butterfly of Iron was mounting and the one on Hensow was falling you said nothing. Only when there was no lynch and it became the next day did you post again. Checking your profile does point to the idea that you were not posting on the forum then, but you were at least checking some of your risk games. So the jury is out there. Interesting though because it could have been a pivotal moment, much more important than the lazy time you added onto the bandwagon now. You have only done so when it was safe and ignored the case. At the same time you posted tidbits on other players that had little suspicious of information being traded. It seems that after your case of Hensow fizzled out you have taken your car and cruised it behind the rest of them blending in with the crowd. Furthermore, you seem to point pressure away from Butterfly of Iron with trivial distractions.

On that note. I will:

Vote: Safariguy5

[kgb007]

i don't have a good reason for voting IB since he's already claimed, while i agree it's an easy fake claim, and the flavour and role color bothers me..i didn't vote for him D1 and N1 didn't yield much activity, doesn't look like anyone else is coming forward with new information at this point? maybe because it was labor day weekend in the states and activity was down but i'll continue to no vote for now and reread

still a lot of time until deadline and by the latest VC, he's only at L3 not L2 like ghostly's post says

Ahh, but it seems we do have some information. A vote stealer perhaps? Or was it a mod miscount?

Sorry for the inactivity, just havent had much to say...

well, you could give an opinion on IB.

I agree, sorry I wasnt mentally prepared to write anything. Because of IB's color differentiations from the correct color, I will vote IB. Dismissing it as "If I cut and pasted it it would be a problem" doesnt cut it to me because IMO, if the colors are in the OP, it wouldnt be quoting, it would be retyping and the colors being the same wouldnt matter, because most players generally want the color with your claim and so the mods (from my experience) generally understand that that's ok (or at least thats how I ran my games...).

greg, safari, and kgb all missed this and its at the top of the page. Right above mine. The one that, incidentally, kgb managed to reference as to putting him at L3, not L2 as stated by myself.

FOS Kgb

my apologies i did miss newguy's vote, the official VC by the mod did not include newguy's vote either, so it actually looks like IB is at L1

some fresh eyes by fircoal..nice work, let's see if IB puts any effort into a response

for the record i thought his argument about saf was more intriguing but it seems rather late to get a case on about saf...fir lost me a little bit with the cults and factions

[StubbsKVM]

Nice catch Fircoal.

However. Why would Saf not vote on day 1 at that time, but decide on day 2 that he was scummy after all?

I can only think that Saf was attempting to save IB on day 1, and vote him now because it was happening anyway.

So if IB flips scum, I'll be happy to vote Saf with you.

[Hensow]

not a lot to say as to the case on IB I as I said in my first day post think it looks like a slip town could not make a so intent is irreverent to my case
as to the case Fircoal made against saf I can see it but unless it's strengthen I shall keep my vote on the stronger case on IB with the hope that today the bell dose not save scum

[jonty125]

Vote Count
Iron Butterfly (6) - StubbsKVM; Hensow; dazza2008; new guy1; ghostly447; safariguy5
safariguy5 (1) - Fircoal

Deadline is Friday 6 September @ 0900 BST. With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Apologies, new guy1's vote was omitted in the last VC.

[safariguy5]

In my defense, I believe that the prods were rather quick (not to say they weren't necessary at some point) but we can discuss how I spend my time on the weekends elsewhere. The mod is at his discretion as to when he believes someone should have posted.

As for the case on IB, it seems to me that the tone and nature of the claim made it seem like IB just put a color out there. You would think that the initial claim and color issue would have caused him to double check the color of the his secondary claim to ensure they matched up. The later vote by me is in reaction to his somewhat flippant tone of post which disregarded much of the secondary criticism brought up by the first claim's color.

[Fircoal]

In my defense, I believe that the prods were rather quick (not to say they weren't necessary at some point) but we can discuss how I spend my time on the weekends elsewhere. The mod is at his discretion as to when he believes someone should have posted.

As for the case on IB, it seems to me that the tone and nature of the claim made it seem like IB just put a color out there. You would think that the initial claim and color issue would have caused him to double check the color of the his secondary claim to ensure they matched up. The later vote by me is in reaction to his somewhat flippant tone of post which disregarded much of the secondary criticism brought up by the first claim's color.

Mr. Scumariguy5. I think you have missed the point of me bring that up. I was not to say that you have not contributed enough, as there are others who are guilty of this. What I am saying is that your contributions to this thread have conveniently ignoring Iron Butterfly until the last moment. The fact that you did not post on the tails of the day 1 where it seemed he was becoming best bet to be lynched just adds to the idea. I can buy the idea that you were spending your weekend elsewhere but I can only really look at what is in front of me. ;3

To be honest the colors don't look all that different. Considering at the point he claimed a color he should have been able to see lots of colors before. I honestly don't see what is so scummy about that piece right there, but I think that is barely relevant at this point.

A question to you, what about his earlier reactions saying that it was important and would do nothing despite what faction he might be?

[safariguy5]

I assume you reference this post:

So you never noticed on your role pm?

Of course I noticed my role pm and its color.

You did not answer my question. Answering my question with a question avoids and deflects my original question on the situation.

You either believe a made an honest mistake OR you believe I had some strategy in mind.

I don't believe that there are just these 2 option. You could be anything. You could be a third party. I will say that I do not think you are extremely stupid because clearly you are not but I can't say that you seem town to me. Surely you can see why what you did is making some of us suspicious of you?

The suspicion is on me simply and solely because I got the colors wrong in my very first statement. I have explained why.

Besides the color mixup I want you to explain how I have not "seemed" like town. I made a mistake and have spent the entire time since that first post explaining what happened.

So explain how town is suppose to act in this situation.

More important no one has been able to explain how my initial statement/question would help my faction in any way.

if I was Winter it does not help. If I am Summer it does not help. If I am third party it does not help.

Stubbs just conveniently jumped the bandwagon with no comment whatsoever.

The problem is not so much as whether IB believes color to be important, but whether we as a whole believe color to be important. The color is only important if someone brings up something that doesn't look right. In a properly done discussion about roles or claims or whatnot, you look nothing at the color unless it is different somehow from how you expect it.

Considering the color was shown by the mod in the OP, we all know or should know the proper color. Therefore, we require no guesswork as to whether the color was right or not.

As for what I refer to in my reasoning of "reaction", this post here does IB no favors.

If i am lynched you had best take a strong strong look at Stubbs.

Frankly go ahead and lynch me.

If you want me to get into how to use the board posting tools to figure out what color you should use for your claim, I would, but it is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. Suffice to say there are ways of looking at the color hex code without copying and pasting.

[ghostly447]

In my defense, I believe that the prods were rather quick (not to say they weren't necessary at some point) but we can discuss how I spend my time on the weekends elsewhere. The mod is at his discretion as to when he believes someone should have posted.

As for the case on IB, it seems to me that the tone and nature of the claim made it seem like IB just put a color out there. You would think that the initial claim and color issue would have caused him to double check the color of the his secondary claim to ensure they matched up. The later vote by me is in reaction to his somewhat flippant tone of post which disregarded much of the secondary criticism brought up by the first claim's color.

By secondary claim you mean fake claim? If so, are you saying you would think he would double check the OP, or in a past claim?

[jonty125]

Vote Count
Iron Butterfly (6) - StubbsKVM; Hensow; dazza2008; new guy1; ghostly447; safariguy5
safariguy5 (1) - Fircoal

Deadline is Friday 6 September @ 0900 BST. With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

If the vote count stays like this Iron Butterfly will be lynched.

Iron Butterfly has prodded.

The mod prods anybody who has not posted in 72 hours, the mod does not keep count of prods.

[Iron Butterfly]

I assume you reference this post:

So you never noticed on your role pm?

Of course I noticed my role pm and its color.

You did not answer my question. Answering my question with a question avoids and deflects my original question on the situation.

You either believe a made an honest mistake OR you believe I had some strategy in mind.

I don't believe that there are just these 2 option. You could be anything. You could be a third party. I will say that I do not think you are extremely stupid because clearly you are not but I can't say that you seem town to me. Surely you can see why what you did is making some of us suspicious of you?

The suspicion is on me simply and solely because I got the colors wrong in my very first statement. I have explained why.

Besides the color mixup I want you to explain how I have not "seemed" like town. I made a mistake and have spent the entire time since that first post explaining what happened.

So explain how town is suppose to act in this situation.

More important no one has been able to explain how my initial statement/question would help my faction in any way.

if I was Winter it does not help. If I am Summer it does not help. If I am third party it does not help.

Stubbs just conveniently jumped the bandwagon with no comment whatsoever.

The problem is not so much as whether IB believes color to be important, but whether we as a whole believe color to be important. The color is only important if someone brings up something that doesn't look right. In a properly done discussion about roles or claims or whatnot, you look nothing at the color unless it is different somehow from how you expect it.

Considering the color was shown by the mod in the OP, we all know or should know the proper color. Therefore, we require no guesswork as to whether the color was right or not.

As for what I refer to in my reasoning of "reaction", this post here does IB no favors.

If i am lynched you had best take a strong strong look at Stubbs.

Frankly go ahead and lynch me.

If you want me to get into how to use the board posting tools to figure out what color you should use for your claim, I would, but it is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. Suffice to say there are ways of looking at the color hex code without copying and pasting.

You are regurgitating opinions expressed by others in a long fancy way.

I explained I did not pay attention. YOU more then anyone know I have on occasion done this before as Jonties Office mafia comes to mind. The same thing happened and you were part of it. granted this is a different game but its not like what I did has set a precedent.

At this point mafia will be content to let the vote count flounder.

I find it interesting that safari basically told Stubbs to tone it down. I feel Stubbs is someone who should be looked at.

As I said it boils down to do you believe it was an accident or do you believe I did what I did on purpose. You can not believe both. if I did it on propose what sense would it make as a remark on day one with out drawing attention to its confusion.

[spiesr]

Alright, at this point it looks like there are two ways this day can end. IronButterfly gets lynched (either by hammer or deadline) or we split the vote enough to hit no lynch. My personal feeling is that IronButterfly is sufficiently likely to be scum that lynching is the preferable option. Would there be any objections to me hammering later today then?

[dazza2008]

As I said it boils down to do you believe it was an accident or do you believe I did what I did on purpose. You can not believe both. if I did it on propose what sense would it make as a remark on day one with out drawing attention to its confusion.

I don't think for 1 second you did it on purpose it was clearly a mistake but the real question is did you make the mistake as a towny or a scumbag. I don't know the answer but I am thinking scum or third party of some sort.

Alright, at this point it looks like there are two ways this day can end. IronButterfly gets lynched (either by hammer or deadline) or we split the vote enough to hit no lynch. My personal feeling is that IronButterfly is sufficiently likely to be scum that lynching is the preferable option. Would there be any objections to me hammering later today then?

I think he will be lynched either way. Its up to you if you want to wait. I'm not sure we will gain any more info so a hammer might be ok but maybe wait it out to see if we do get more. Basically I don't know but I think he will be lynched either way and I think he should be to settle it one way or the other.

[safariguy5]

In my defense, I believe that the prods were rather quick (not to say they weren't necessary at some point) but we can discuss how I spend my time on the weekends elsewhere. The mod is at his discretion as to when he believes someone should have posted.

As for the case on IB, it seems to me that the tone and nature of the claim made it seem like IB just put a color out there. You would think that the initial claim and color issue would have caused him to double check the color of the his secondary claim to ensure they matched up. The later vote by me is in reaction to his somewhat flippant tone of post which disregarded much of the secondary criticism brought up by the first claim's color.

By secondary claim you mean fake claim? If so, are you saying you would think he would double check the OP, or in a past claim?

Sorry, I didn't make that clear. The initial question of role PM color I consider the first "claim" (more of a softclaim). By secondary claim, I mean the actual VT claim with the character name.

[spiesr]

Hammer time.
Vote Iron Butterfly

[jonty125]

FINAL Vote Count
Iron Butterfly (7) - StubbsKVM; Hensow; dazza2008; new guy1; ghostly447; safariguy5; spiesr
safariguy5 (1) - Fircoal


Iron Butterfly - Peter (Vanilla Townie) has been lynched. Night Two has begun, deadline for night actions is Monday 9 September @ 1800 BST.

[Iron Butterfly]

well gee wiz

[jonty125]

2. gregwolf121 - Benjamin (Vanilla Townie) has been stabbed with an icicle.

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday 18 September @ 1600 BST.

[StubbsKVM]

Well, Fircoal is likely town. He tried to steer us away from a mislynch. I don't really see scum doing that.
Or am I underestimating Fircoal?

[Fircoal]

Well, Fircoal is likely town. He tried to steer us away from a mislynch. I don't really see scum doing that.
Or am I underestimating Fircoal?

Ah nice as that is I did nothing of the sort. I still said I found Iron Butterfly scummy, I just also brought out another possibility which I wanted to see have some face time before the end of the day.

Also it is not uncommon for scum to try to protect town players to make them seem more like town. The thing is town players can only guess who is bad and good, while the scum know for sure.

[gregwolf121]

dangit i died
oh well go summer



an icicle really, man that sucks

[kgb007]

Could be worse I suppose, sucks that we lost 3 VTs..

does anyone have anything they want to add from their N2 actions??

[skillfusniper33]

Well, Fircoal is likely town. He tried to steer us away from a mislynch. I don't really see scum doing that.
Or am I underestimating Fircoal?

I don't like this statement at all. Yes he brought up another case, but how would he know if he was town or mafia?

Could be worse I suppose, sucks that we lost 3 VTs..

does anyone have anything they want to add from their N2 actions??

Yes it sucks we lost 3 town without one mafia being found. But at least they are VTs and not power roles. That is the job of the VT in general to draw attention onto themselves for mafia to target.

How could it be any better? No loses would be I guess but that is assuming that we have a doc available for full time use, and he gets lucky in picking his target.