The Wire Mafia Day 6 [4/13]

[Djfireside]

Stubbs is the main point that should change your logic. Since Stubbs came back innocent in one shot and guilty on another, checking against the one known constant would provided your comparison. Checking jonty would tell you if you are insane or paranoid whereas anyone else we still guessing if you are paranoid or not rather than determining it but since you choose the path guess need to follow it. Im assuming there is only 1 miller and they are dead.

[StubbsKVM]

This game is really giving me a headache.

I've typed out posts at least 5 times today without posting them.

I have some questions I want answered, but I'll have to claim my role in order to ask them.

Is it ever a good idea to do so unless it has a big chance on nailing scum?

I'm not even sure just asking this is a good idea anymore...

[spiesr]

Stubbs is the main point that should change your logic. Since Stubbs came back innocent in one shot and guilty on another, checking against the one known constant would provided your comparison. Checking jonty would tell you if you are insane or paranoid whereas anyone else we still guessing if you are paranoid or not rather than determining it but since you choose the path guess need to follow it. Im assuming there is only 1 miller and they are dead.

If I were to investigate a player who is known to be town it would confirm that I am either Insane or Paranoid, but it would not provide any indication as to which of those I am. (Either sanity would return Guilty in that situation.) Since I am already fairly confident that I am one of those I figured my action would be better spent trying to figure out which of those I am.

If you guys hadn't lynched Omar yesterday (and if Comrade Kirk had given a proper claim instead of faffing about as he was about to be lynched) then I could have investigated him which would have proven my sanity. So, Vote lynx_ for hammering too soon yesterday.

[skillfusniper33]

Stubbs is the main point that should change your logic. Since Stubbs came back innocent in one shot and guilty on another, checking against the one known constant would provided your comparison. Checking jonty would tell you if you are insane or paranoid whereas anyone else we still guessing if you are paranoid or not rather than determining it but since you choose the path guess need to follow it. Im assuming there is only 1 miller and they are dead.

If I were to investigate a player who is known to be town it would confirm that I am either Insane or Paranoid, but it would not provide any indication as to which of those I am. (Either sanity would return Guilty in that situation.) Since I am already fairly confident that I am one of those I figured my action would be better spent trying to figure out which of those I am.

If you guys hadn't lynched Omar yesterday (and if Comrade Kirk had given a proper claim instead of faffing about as he was about to be lynched) then I could have investigated him which would have proven my sanity. So, Vote lynx_ for hammering too soon yesterday.

If you wanted Comrade to go along with the plan to target the PGO, that is slightly understandable, but here would have been a ton of deaths that night. It would have provided a minimum of 3 deaths, but if my understanding of PGO is correct then you would have also died Spieser, which would have put 4 people dead that night, and that would be very bad for everyone in this game, and almost assure a Mafia win. (assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Vote Spiesr for wanting a mass murder.

@Stubbs
If they are about your role's abilities then PM Chuck about them, if they are about how we think you should use them, wait and see what others think about it. Because I personally wouldn't reveal to much unless I was sure I could nail Scum, but that is just me

[jonty125]

which would have put 4 people dead that night,

I can only see 2 deaths. Comrade (vig) target newguy (PGO) result Comrade die, PGO survive. Spieser target Comrade (deceased vig) no death. Mafia kill whoever they wish. Death #2

[lynx_]

As per lynx's satatement I have been thinking about NG's claim and been rolling it around in my head for a while since PGO is normally a shield claim.

This is what I've been thinking. If he'd claimed of his own accord (preferably early), I'd have much more time for it. But at the time of his claim he was under heavy suspicion and would likely have been investigated had he survived. The more I think about it, the more surprised I am that he's made it this far despite some (IMO) fairly suspicious posts.

Vote: new guy

Also on spiesr, he is correct in that he needs to target a scummer in order to get the 'innocent' result that will determine his sanity.

If you guys hadn't lynched Omar yesterday then I could have investigated him which would have proven my sanity.

Well, hindsight is nice. Again, isn't it customary round here to claim miller at the beginning of the game? An unclaimed miller being investigated can often ensure a town loss when the cop claims. At least that way cops know not to waste their time (and it helps for determining sanity in situations like this).

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

@jonty, that depends on what sort of PGO he is. AFAIK normal PGOs will kill someone targeting them but still be targeted, whereas an extreme PGO will roleblock those targeting them as well as killing.

[jonty125]

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

@jonty, that depends on what sort of PGO he is. AFAIK normal PGOs will kill someone targeting them but still be targeted, whereas an extreme PGO will roleblock those targeting them as well as killing.

I have no idea what you mean when you say AFAIK but here on CC there is one type of PGO (or at least that I've seen) and that's the "extreme" version you mentioned.

[lynx_]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=PGO

[off-topic] This isn't the forum I play on, but we normally use their excellent wiki for role information. [/off-topic]

[jonty125]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=PGO

[off-topic] This isn't the forum I play on, but we normally use their excellent wiki for role information. [/off-topic]

You still haven't addressed what you meant through AFAIK.

[lynx_]

Ah, sorry. As far as I know.

[spiesr]

If you wanted Comrade to go along with the plan to target the PGO, that is slightly understandable, but here would have been a ton of deaths that night. It would have provided a minimum of 3 deaths, but if my understanding of PGO is correct then you would have also died Spieser, which would have put 4 people dead that night, and that would be very bad for everyone in this game, and almost assure a Mafia win. (assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

No, I did not want him to do that. Since unless there is something unusual about his role that would most likely have ended with both of them dead. Using a vig to test a PGO claim is a pretty bad idea due to the disaster that you end up with if the claim is legit.
What I wanted was for him not to be lynched until he claimed and for him to have the sense to make a complete claim when his lynch was getting close.

Again, isn't it customary round here to claim miller at the beginning of the game?

Not really. There isn't really a standard protocol for that here and Comrade Kirk is new enough that he wouldn't have known it anyway. With the way Day 1 is around here I suspect that doing something like that would probably get you lynched.

[skillfusniper33]

which would have put 4 people dead that night,

I can only see 2 deaths. Comrade (vig) target newguy (PGO) result Comrade die, PGO survive. Spieser target Comrade (deceased vig) no death. Mafia kill whoever they wish. Death #2

That would mean the PGO was bulletproof, and to be honest that seems a little to strong for most games, and when we don't have a standard protection role (or that I know of). And if spiesr didn't die it would put it at 3 deaths, and still in this game 3 would be a very ugly number to loose in one night.

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

You have to make that assumption for my theory to be correct. I am not saying that I buy the claim of PGO.

[jonty125]

which would have put 4 people dead that night,

I can only see 2 deaths. Comrade (vig) target newguy (PGO) result Comrade die, PGO survive. Spieser target Comrade (deceased vig) no death. Mafia kill whoever they wish. Death #2

That would mean the PGO was bulletproof, and to be honest that seems a little to strong for most games, and when we don't have a standard protection role (or that I know of). And if spiesr didn't die it would put it at 3 deaths, and still in this game 3 would be a very ugly number to loose in one night.

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

You have to make that assumption for my theory to be correct. I am not saying that I buy the claim of PGO.

Why would spieser die? And my logic been that the PGO is a passive action so it shoots before any action can happen.

[Djfireside]

It would have ended the exact same way which if he just would have come out and said so would have probabally helped but playing the secretive approach got him killed.

[skillfusniper33]

which would have put 4 people dead that night,

I can only see 2 deaths. Comrade (vig) target newguy (PGO) result Comrade die, PGO survive. Spieser target Comrade (deceased vig) no death. Mafia kill whoever they wish. Death #2

That would mean the PGO was bulletproof, and to be honest that seems a little to strong for most games, and when we don't have a standard protection role (or that I know of). And if spiesr didn't die it would put it at 3 deaths, and still in this game 3 would be a very ugly number to loose in one night.

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

You have to make that assumption for my theory to be correct. I am not saying that I buy the claim of PGO.

Why would spieser die? And my logic been that the PGO is a passive action so it shoots before any action can happen.

My understanding is that the PGO and Vig would fire at the same time (up to the mod on how they work really, but that was my understanding of them). Then also because of spiesr's night action he would also go the visit the PGO because he targeted someone who was targeting the PGO. If this isn't true then I have miss-understood how the role worked.

All this is my understanding, but I have only had 1 game with a PGO that I can remember, and when he died 3 others died as well. But 2 had specifically targeted him, and the 3rd person (me ironically) had a passive ability where I "targeted" him.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0#p3363073

[spiesr]

My understanding is that the PGO and Vig would fire at the same time (up to the mod on how they work really, but that was my understanding of them). Then also because of spiesr's night action he would also go the visit the PGO because he targeted someone who was targeting the PGO. If this isn't true then I have miss-understood how the role worked.

I think this is correct.
I think this is incorrect.

[jonty125]

My understanding is that the PGO and Vig would fire at the same time (up to the mod on how they work really, but that was my understanding of them). Then also because of spiesr's night action he would also go the visit the PGO because he targeted someone who was targeting the PGO. If this isn't true then I have miss-understood how the role worked.

I think this is correct.
I think this is incorrect.

1st statement depends on the mod, personally, I would expect just the vig to die, but what do I know, I ain't the mod.
2nd statement I think is incorrect. Spieser is not targeting the PGO so would be safe.

[Djfireside]

Okay I think we have gone off on a tangent which does not have any bearing anymore since it is over and done with. Need to get back to business or we are going to talk ourselves into madness. I think ill try to compile a list of who we know and work from there to get moving again.

[lynx_]

Agree with DJ. I don't have much time at the moment but think we (as in I) need to look into new guy and skillfulsniper.

[thechuck51]

Vote Count 4.1

- spiesr (1) - skillfusniper
- new guy1 (1) - _lynx

Not Voting: Jonty, spiesr, new guy1, Djfireside, ghostly447, stubbsKVM

With 8 Alive it takes 5 to Lynch

Deadline is Wednesday July 17th at 10pm Eastern (6 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes remaining)

[jonty125]

Here are some thoughts, I've come up with.

Lynch spieser - we'll PROBABLY (depending on the mod) determine his sanity, and have 2 more people as town. However if he is paranoid, then it's a wasted lynch, and this is quite literally shooting the golden goose.

Lynch new guy1 - PGO claim, nobody has so far had the guts to target him, meaning the scene hasn't confirmed that he is who he says he is (by shooting them), or somebody would come out and say I targetted new guy1, look, I liveth. If we lynch him, and lose a Town PGO, then it's little loss because he's effectively a VT with everyone buying his claim, if he's scum, then his bluff is exposed. Can't be cop investigated. Then again, we could send spieser in and that has been explained in the above paragraph.

Lynch skillfusniper -

Stubbs is the main point that should change your logic. Since Stubbs came back innocent in one shot and guilty on another, checking against the one known constant would provided your comparison. Checking jonty would tell you if you are insane or paranoid whereas anyone else we still guessing if you are paranoid or not rather than determining it but since you choose the path guess need to follow it. Im assuming there is only 1 miller and they are dead.

If I were to investigate a player who is known to be town it would confirm that I am either Insane or Paranoid, but it would not provide any indication as to which of those I am. (Either sanity would return Guilty in that situation.) Since I am already fairly confident that I am one of those I figured my action would be better spent trying to figure out which of those I am.

If you guys hadn't lynched Omar yesterday (and if Comrade Kirk had given a proper claim instead of faffing about as he was about to be lynched) then I could have investigated him which would have proven my sanity. So, Vote lynx_ for hammering too soon yesterday.

If you wanted Comrade to go along with the plan to target the PGO, that is slightly understandable, but here would have been a ton of deaths that night. It would have provided a minimum of 3 deaths, but if my understanding of PGO is correct then you would have also died Spieser, which would have put 4 people dead that night, and that would be very bad for everyone in this game, and almost assure a Mafia win. (assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Vote Spiesr for wanting a mass murder.

I think this is a weak reason to vote spiesr, simply the fact that we would of thrashed out his ideas before we implemented them.

Anyhow, I had these ideas bouncing around in my head. I felt these need sharing.

[new guy1]

Alright, literally just got back, and I found a post I wish to question:

As per lynx's satatement I have been thinking about NG's claim and been rolling it around in my head for a while since PGO is normally a shield claim.

This is what I've been thinking. If he'd claimed of his own accord (preferably early), I'd have much more time for it. But at the time of his claim he was under heavy suspicion and would likely have been investigated had he survived. The more I think about it, the more surprised I am that he's made it this far despite some (IMO) fairly suspicious posts.

Vote: new guy

Also on spiesr, he is correct in that he needs to target a scummer in order to get the 'innocent' result that will determine his sanity.

If you guys hadn't lynched Omar yesterday then I could have investigated him which would have proven my sanity.

Well, hindsight is nice. Again, isn't it customary round here to claim miller at the beginning of the game? An unclaimed miller being investigated can often ensure a town loss when the cop claims. At least that way cops know not to waste their time (and it helps for determining sanity in situations like this).

(assuming NG isn't lying about his PGO role)

Why are you assuming that? FoS

@jonty, that depends on what sort of PGO he is. AFAIK normal PGOs will kill someone targeting them but still be targeted, whereas an extreme PGO will roleblock those targeting them as well as killing.

Alright, so in the first part, I dont know what you find suspicious about my posts. I always keep my posts consistent, unless you annoy or anger me in which the posts become very sarcastic and IMO quite a fun read. Point out a few and why you think they are scummy, then we can talk about you having a case. Skipping the second quote, to the last one, why would you FOS someone for including the possibility that I am not lying? IMO, the fact that you would just assume I was scum is scummy in its own right and is quite frankly just a misplaced FOS. I am tired, so I am posting this as a re-entry post and may vote when I get sleep and read responses and such at a later time. Glad to be back and glad I didnt get speedlynched while I was gone

[jonty125]

I didnt get speedlynched while I was gone

It was tempting.

On a more serious note regarding, speedlynching, tomorrow, we could be at LYLO, if we aren't already, so can people not place votes until a majority has been sorted (I fear I may not live, so that's why I'm piping up).

[StubbsKVM]

I've got a hard time even understanding what's going on.

What do you suggest we do Jonty?

[spiesr]

I've got a hard time even understanding what's going on.
What do you suggest we do Jonty?

At this point you we should probably just forget about all the stuff with the PGO and whatnot it has sidetracked us for too long. You need to just pick the person you think is the scumiest, explain why, and vote for them. At the moment I still stand by my vote on lynx.