Re: Rail S America [21.11.13] BETA READY

[cairnswk]

Great to see you back in this Cairns!

Thanks Gilligan

initially i was unimpressed with the hats but i think they can grow on me.

They're just like the mineral bonuses in Rail Australia just different config.

...it did take quiet a while to find them all though, or did i spot them all

What if put into the legend wording:
"Cities with 2 & 3 line terminus stations have
markets which are popular with tourists."

Will that help?

[greenoaks]

What if put into the legend wording:
"Cities with 2 & 3 line terminus stations have
markets which are popular with tourists."

Will that help?

Rail Australia is a little different & easier because of it. It is the same 3 images so i know what to look for. Those 3 images are listed in the legend.

Here i saw the legend had a hat (1 hat) and found it, not realising for a while there where different hats. so i don't know for sure if i found all the hats.

"Cities with 2 & 3 ........" is much clearer than "Some stations .....". Will it fit?

[cairnswk]

What if put into the legend wording:
"Cities with 2 & 3 line terminus stations have
markets which are popular with tourists."

Will that help?

Rail Australia is a little different & easier because of it. It is the same 3 images so i know what to look for. Those 3 images are listed in the legend.

Here i saw the legend had a hat (1 hat) and found it, not realising for a while there where different hats. so i don't know for sure if i found all the hats.

"Cities with 2 & 3 ........" is much clearer than "Some stations .....". Will it fit?

OK, hats are listed.
Notation is changed.
Hope this makes it easier to understand.

Verson 13 Small

[waauw]

why are the stations around Uruguay not double boxed like the others?
also, love the map!

and are hat-cities gonna start with neutrals? cuz in 1v1 they might give strong starting advantages.

[cairnswk]

why are the stations around Uruguay not double boxed like the others?
also, love the map!

and are hat-cities gonna start with neutrals? cuz in 1v1 they might give strong starting advantages.

Thanks for commenting waauw

By highlighting one issue and stating another you've provided me with a solution to fix both.
I'll update later today after returing from town.

[greenoaks]

What if put into the legend wording:
"Cities with 2 & 3 line terminus stations have
markets which are popular with tourists."

Will that help?

Rail Australia is a little different & easier because of it. It is the same 3 images so i know what to look for. Those 3 images are listed in the legend.

Here i saw the legend had a hat (1 hat) and found it, not realising for a while there where different hats. so i don't know for sure if i found all the hats.

"Cities with 2 & 3 ........" is much clearer than "Some stations .....". Will it fit?

OK, hats are listed.
Notation is changed.
Hope this makes it easier to understand.

seeing all those listed, i know i didn't spot all the hats

[cairnswk]

why are the stations around Uruguay not double boxed like the others?
also, love the map!

and are hat-cities gonna start with neutrals? cuz in 1v1 they might give strong starting advantages.

OK waauw...
i've changed some of the stations around Uruguay to be double boxed....there are now 114 territories, 10 of those are neutral starts with hats (makes the 104 golden number), as per marked on this map.

....
seeing all those listed, i know i didn't spot all the hats

The hat stations are now listed for convenience.

Click image to enlarge.

[greenoaks]

looks good to me.

[Teflon Kris]

Someone may have mentionned this - what is the lower hexagon in the pacific depicting, and, similarly, I am struggling to work out what the Buenos Aires picture is.

PLus, you may wish to re-word the terminus-hat explanation, especially as some of the cities are only a terminus for one line: "Hats denote a bonus for junction cities due to the flourishing sale of hats in these cities' markets.@

Good work as ever though.

[cairnswk]

Someone may have mentionned this - what is the lower hexagon in the pacific depicting, and, similarly, I am struggling to work out what the Buenos Aires picture is.

Lower Pacific hexagon is a funicular railcar that i know is used in Bolivia and Brazil
Buenos Aires pic is a night scene looking down Av 9 de Julio towards the Obelisk, which i beleive is the main inner city thoroughfare.
"9 de Julio Avenue, located in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, is the widest avenue in the world. Its name honors Argentina's Independence Day, July 9, 1816". Wikipedia

[cairnswk]

...
PLus, you may wish to re-word the terminus-hat explanation, especially as some of the cities are only a terminus for one line: "Hats denote a bonus for junction cities due to the flourishing sale of hats in these cities' markets.@

Good work as ever though.

Done and thanks

[cairnswk]

Small grfx changes to straightening the legend text alignments, and the notation of underlying neutrals at the top - whether it stays there or not is a call for "absolute need".

[cairnswk]

Does anyone have any gameplay changes to this please?

[koontz1973]

cairns, can you do another neutrals map to show the values of the cities with two and three junctions to stop the bonus drops on the hat bonus. I take it that SCB in the south has a bonus of +1 if both C & E are held.

Other lines with only 2 or 3 stations in them, how do you want to hand these out to stop bonus drops? Lines N and D have nothing yet but H already has a neutral stated.

[Aleena]

Maybe make one section of each Bonus a neutral - this would insure no one would receive one on a drop.

[cairnswk]

cairns, can you do another neutrals map to show the values of the cities with two and three junctions to stop the bonus drops on the hat bonus. I take it that SCB in the south has a bonus of +1 if both C & E are held.

Other lines with only 2 or 3 stations in them, how do you want to hand these out to stop bonus drops? Lines N and D have nothing yet but H already has a neutral stated.

koontz, top of this page was this map with the neutrals on it.
V15 has a notation to say where the neutrals are at the very top of the map.
yes, SCB E has a neutral, as do all two station terminuses with hat bonuses.

Maybe make one section of each Bonus a neutral - this would insure no one would receive one on a drop.

Aleena, the lines with 2 stations have neutrals allocated and some of these are also hat bonuses.
It is primarily only three station lines that get allocated a neutral to stop the "drop advantage"
All other lines with 4 or more stations usually are reasonably safe from "drop advantage" as all are randomly allocated

[koontz1973]

Sorry for missing that map cairns, it was not the same as the OP one. But the 3 hat stations will also need a neutral.

A little suggestion from me. The stations with 2 lines and a hat (you have 9 if I counted correctly) how about having the other line as a starting position with an underlying 2 neutral. Give a max of two out to players. Will make sure everyone gets at least one in a game and not allow a player to have a big advantage by dropping in easy reach of lots of little bonuses in a game.

[cairnswk]

Sorry for missing that map cairns, it was not the same as the OP one. But the 3 hat stations will also need a neutral.

A little suggestion from me. The stations with 2 lines and a hat (you have 9 if I counted correctly) how about having the other line as a starting position with an underlying 2 neutral. Give a max of two out to players. Will make sure everyone gets at least one in a game and not allow a player to have a big advantage by dropping in easy reach of lots of little bonuses in a game.

OK, i have 114 stations.
10 of them are marked at present as neutrals
104 is the golden number....the next one down is 80...that would mean placing another 24 neutrals on the map, which i am loathe to do.

the stations with two lines which have hats already have neutrals marked.
the other two line stations without hats don't need neutrals since they don't get any bonus if there is no hat, and those stations that are part of a three line bonus already have hats to neutralize the drop on those three station lines.

there are 5 2/3 station lines.
the only one that doesn't have neutrals allocated is the Inland TRS LIne (yellow - eastern Brasil)
it has three stations and two of those are a double up station with other lines.
do you really think that one in particular would be a problem,
since the other 4 of these have neutrals allocated because they are hat bonuses.

[koontz1973]

Allowing one 3 line into the map I have no problem with as it will create some anomalies in games. Some players will bitch about bonus drops, others will see it as a nice move on your part. Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps. But you also have - PVH, CRS and SAO stations. So in reality you have 4 3 region bonuses that can be dropped for a bonus of 2.

The golden numbers say the next one down from 104 is 89 (apart from 5/7 player games). Both of these sizes are not in play much so not to worry. So by adding in 4 extra neutrals, one per 3 bonus region (line Q, stations PVH, CRS & SAO).

With the 9 2 bonus regions, the ones without neutral, mark these as starting positions with a max of 4 given out, that would mean only one extra underlying neutral in 2, 4 and 8 player games. This would give you the 89 golden number. And with 2, 4 and 8 player games being the most popular, I would not have any worry then. That would allow all drops to be cancelled, less neutrals added, would allow some randomness to the map and placate most players who would bitch about bonuses of 2 being dropped.

[greenoaks]

i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

[cairnswk]

Allowing one 3 line into the map I have no problem with as it will create some anomalies in games. Some players will bitch about bonus drops, others will see it as a nice move on your part. Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps. But you also have - PVH, CRS and SAO stations. So in reality you have 4 3 region bonuses that can be dropped for a bonus of 2.

Ahm, i had forgotten about these 3x3 terminuses having to have neutrals.
so yes that makes another 4 neutrals added to the already existing 10. - now 14.

The golden numbers say the next one down from 104 is 89 (apart from 5/7 player games). Both of these sizes are not in play much so not to worry. So by adding in 4 extra neutrals, one per 3 bonus region (line Q, stations PVH, CRS & SAO).

from 89 to 104 is 15 neutrals, not 4.
i was hoping to get a full golden number like 104.
so, 114 total, to 89 makes 25 neutrals.

By placing neutrals on BSB and BUE stations (11) i get 14+11= 25 neutrals.
That means there is no need to alter the drop or max numbers and this can play as a relatively normal map (except for all the neutrals)

I have placed a bonus on each of BSB and BUA and this can be altered. Just means N line has one start which isn't a totally bad thing.

Version 16.

[cairnswk]

i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

[koontz1973]

from 89 to 104 is 15 neutrals, not 4.

Amazing how basic math can go wrong.

I can live with all of the neutrals like that but within the 2 large terminus, lower them to a 2 or 1 depending on the length of line. So line N with its 3 regions can go to a 2, line L with 6 stations can get a 1 neutral.

Let me look at something and I will get back to you later today.

[greenoaks]

i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.

[cairnswk]

i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.

I agree with you to a certain extent, i have never been one to think a map should be totally balanced - right from Pearl Harvour, however, there are many on the site who would scream their tits off if the maps are not balanced and someone starts with a bonus, particularly in 1v1