Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Woodruff]

So, uchiro:
Is tzor saved?
He believes in your whole "salvational" thing - Jesus died for us, was the son of god, whatever.
But he believes your position on the creation to be seriously flawed.
Like Viceroy does.

There is no strong comparison between "humble and reasonable thinking Christians like tzor and daddy1gringo" and "arrogant and willfully ignorant Christians like Viceroy and universalchiro". Plenty to contrast, but it certainly doesn't come out in favor of the second group.

[universalchiro]

So, uchiro:
Is tzor saved?
He believes in your whole "salvational" thing - Jesus died for us, was the son of god, whatever.
But he believes your position on the creation to be seriously flawed.
Like Viceroy does.

The matters of whether someone is saved or not is up to God. If someone confesses Jesus as Lord, that He died on the cross and paid in full for their sins and rose from the grave 3 days later, Then they are saved. And proof that they are saved will be their actions and what comes out of their mouth. A saved person will not deny the deity of Jesus. A saved person will not hate people, yes their actions, but not people. A saved person will manifest fruits of the spirit: Joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, humility, meekness, self-control, patience and love.

tzor and viceroy can disagree with my young life on earth literal rendering of the Creation account, that's fine, doesn't change that they are my brother's in Christ. Whether it's an old earth or life began 6-10 millenniums ago, is a weighty subject to be sure, but not salvational...I have many close friends that believe in evolution, but that God did it all. I have other friends that refer to the days of creation as eons. And some like Viceroy that like a "Gap" theory.

Thank you for a serious question. It's a breath of fresh air versus what other evolutionist have posted these last several months.

[Woodruff]

Thank you for a serious question. It's a breath of fresh air versus what other evolutionist have posted these last several months.

You've been asked plenty of serious questions from numerous other forum denizens. You just didn't like those questions so you ignored them.

[waauw]

Don't be mistaken; EVERY knee will bow to Jesus. Some in adoration, most in humiliation.

Not bloody likely.

What's funny is that all this time, he's been describing his deity as a tyran. He just loves serving tyrans.

[BigBallinStalin]

Don't be mistaken; EVERY knee will bow to Jesus. Some in adoration, most in humiliation.

Great fanatical words to live by. Surely, no stupidity could occur from such reasoning!

[BigBallinStalin]

Don't be mistaken; EVERY knee will bow to Jesus. Some in adoration, most in humiliation.

Not bloody likely.

What's funny is that all this time, he's been describing his deity as a tyran. He just loves serving tyrans.

Well, He is a stern God, or prophet, or Magic Ghost.

[jonesthecurl]

So, uchiro:
Is tzor saved?
He believes in your whole "salvational" thing - Jesus died for us, was the son of god, whatever.
But he believes your position on the creation to be seriously flawed.
Like Viceroy does.

The matters of whether someone is saved or not is up to God. If someone confesses Jesus as Lord, that He died on the cross and paid in full for their sins and rose from the grave 3 days later, Then they are saved. And proof that they are saved will be their actions and what comes out of their mouth. A saved person will not deny the deity of Jesus. A saved person will not hate people, yes their actions, but not people. A saved person will manifest fruits of the spirit: Joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, humility, meekness, self-control, patience and love.

tzor and viceroy can disagree with my young life on earth literal rendering of the Creation account, that's fine, doesn't change that they are my brother's in Christ. Whether it's an old earth or life began 6-10 millenniums ago, is a weighty subject to be sure, but not salvational...I have many close friends that believe in evolution, but that God did it all. I have other friends that refer to the days of creation as eons. And some like Viceroy that like a "Gap" theory.

Thank you for a serious question. It's a breath of fresh air versus what other evolutionist have posted these last several months.

And thank you right back for your answer.

[Viceroy63]

So, uchiro:
Is tzor saved?
He believes in your whole "salvational" thing - Jesus died for us, was the son of god, whatever.
But he believes your position on the creation to be seriously flawed.
Like Viceroy does.

I would also like to answer this question by stating that no one can really say if another individual is saved or not. Even in the same church, just because they go to the same church is no guarantee of salvation. Even the actions that we do is no real sign because it is not so much what we do but the motivation behind the actions.

One person could give to the poor and needy because in his heart he suffers with them in silence while another person gives to the poor and needy because it is one hell of a tax write off. So it is not the actions or the Church or even the Name of Jesus for false jesus and false gospels and doctrines abide by the bushels.

Men see only the outside of the person but God sees the heart of that person. The only ones who really know who is saved is God and the individual himself. That is to say the individual who is saved knows it by faith. The dead know nothing, not even that they are dead or dying. I am referring to the spiritually dead of course. But just as the physically dead know nothing, neither do the spiritually dead know anything either.

But we are living in the last days when the question will be put to the test and we will all be forced to choose one way or the other.

[AndyDufresne]

If God looks into my heart (in and around all my pumping blood) he can see I am pretty nice, charitable, and humanistic fella. Even if I have a penchant animated star trek gifs.




--Andy

[jonesthecurl]

So, uchiro:
Is tzor saved?
He believes in your whole "salvational" thing - Jesus died for us, was the son of god, whatever.
But he believes your position on the creation to be seriously flawed.
Like Viceroy does.

I would also like to answer this question by stating that no one can really say if another individual is saved or not. Even in the same church, just because they go to the same church is no guarantee of salvation. Even the actions that we do is no real sign because it is not so much what we do but the motivation behind the actions.

One person could give to the poor and needy because in his heart he suffers with them in silence while another person gives to the poor and needy because it is one hell of a tax write off. So it is not the actions or the Church or even the Name of Jesus for false jesus and false gospels and doctrines abide by the bushels.

Men see only the outside of the person but God sees the heart of that person. The only ones who really know who is saved is God and the individual himself. That is to say the individual who is saved knows it by faith. The dead know nothing, not even that they are dead or dying. I am referring to the spiritually dead of course. But just as the physically dead know nothing, neither do the spiritually dead know anything either.

But we are living in the last days when the question will be put to the test and we will all be forced to choose one way or the other.

Point taken. I meant only, can you be saved and not be a creationist.
Other Christians, do you guys believe we're living in the Last Days?
Do you expect the Rapture or is that a misinterpretation?

[universalchiro]

Here is the complete list of benefits of evolution to mankind: [crickets]…

A complete list of the benefits of evolution could fill volumes of books.
There are so many things that are beneficial that would not have happened if we just swam around in the swamp as a simple multi-celled creature.

Like developing lungs ...
And a diaphragm ...
And combining our air and digestive passages so we can pass air through our mouths ...
And eyes ...
And opposable thumbs ...

Just these alone allows us to sing the praises of God while holding and reading a hymnal.
Do you think Plankton can do that? No he cannot!

My brother in Christ, when do you start to take the Bible literally? And by what measuring standard determines when to take the Bible literally?
Troy

[Woodruff]

But we are living in the last days when the question will be put to the test and we will all be forced to choose one way or the other.

How do you know we are living in the last days? Doesn't your Bible tell you that you can't know this?

[Woodruff]

If God looks into my heart (in and around all my pumping blood) he can see I am pretty nice, charitable, and humanistic fella. Even if I have a penchant animated star trek gifs.

I'm confused. You say that last like it's a bad thing.

[Viceroy63]

But we are living in the last days when the question will be put to the test and we will all be forced to choose one way or the other.

How do you know we are living in the last days? Doesn't your Bible tell you that you can't know this?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
-Matthew 24:36

"He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?"
-Matthew 16:2-3

The Bible only states that one can not know the day nor hour of the return of the Lord (or the fulfillment of any prophecy). Not that we can not know the sign of the times or the seasons in which things will occur. Just like we know that it will snow in winter but not know exactly the day or hour in which it will snow. But for this reason are we told to be watchful and mindful of prophetic events...

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
-Matthew 25:13

We are told to be watchful for the very reason that we can determine when the times of prophetic fulfillment is at hand. In the case of the birth of Jesus it was foretold centuries prior to the date almost. When Herod found out about the newly born "King of the Jews" from the strangers from other countries in the east (Probably as far away as India or maybe even China?), he had his own people look into it and where did they look? In the ancient prophecies.

"Introduction: The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is one of the great prophecies of the Old Testament. This prophecy, which was given to Daniel by the angel Gabriel, specified that 70 weeks of years (70 years times 7 = 490 years) were coming for the Jewish people. This period of 490 years would end with the manifestation of the Messiah (Christ) after the 69th week (483 years) and the crucifixion of the Christ in the middle of the 70th week. From this important prophecy we understand that the period of time between the commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem after the 70 year Babylonian captivity and the beginning of the public ministry of Jesus of Nazareth would be 483 years. The key questions that must be answered are: What king gave the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem? And, when did this take place? The Bible has the answers for us!"
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/proph ... 7Aod8lsAgw

So prophecies, far from being a mystery are sign post in the history of the world that actually let us know that something is about to happen up ahead. Just as if you are driving down the highway and you see a signpost for gas and rest up ahead. One could ask himself, Why did not the Jews of their time know that the time for the messiah had come? Certainly these strangers from the East knew this. And the wise men of Herod confirmed the prophecies and even the city where the Lord would be born.

The answer is: The Jews were not watchful.

Be watchful for the prophecies are all coming together now.

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
-I Peter 4:7

[Woodruff]

But we are living in the last days when the question will be put to the test and we will all be forced to choose one way or the other.

How do you know we are living in the last days? Doesn't your Bible tell you that you can't know this?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
-Matthew 24:36

"He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?"
-Matthew 16:2-3

The Bible only states that one can not know the day nor hour of the return of the Lord (or the fulfillment of any prophecy). Not that we can not know the sign of the times or the seasons in which things will occur. Just like we know that it will snow in winter but not know exactly the day or hour in which it will snow. But for this reason are we told to be watchful and mindful of prophetic events...

That's some serious rationalization you've got going there. Plus a little bit of sailor's folklore thrown in for good measure. Do you ever feel like you're running in double-speak?

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
-Matthew 25:13

We are told to be watchful for the very reason that we can determine when the times of prophetic fulfillment is at hand. In the case of the birth of Jesus it was foretold centuries prior to the date almost. When Herod found out about the newly born "King of the Jews" from the strangers from other countries in the east (Probably as far away as India or maybe even China?), he had his own people look into it and where did they look? In the ancient prophecies.

Let's examine that quote: It tells you to be watchful BECAUSE YOU WON'T KNOW when the end comes. So you should watch for something that you can't really watch for. You're going to be caught by surprise even if you're watching for it, but nevertheless you should be watchful for it. Seems a little paranoia-inducing to me.

It would've been a lot easier for you to have just answered my question with a simple "You're right, we can't know, and I'm just speaking in bullshit". Because clearly, even according to your Bible, you can't know that we are in the end days. All it tells you is that you should pay attention (at best). So please stop lying and spreading untruths in the name of your religion.

[tzor]

My brother in Christ, when do you start to take the Bible literally? And by what measuring standard determines when to take the Bible literally?
Troy

The first thing to understand is the attitude of the Ethiopian Eunuch who even when reading the Old Testament needed someone to help explain it to him. Now that someone is the Pillar and Bulwark of truth, the "Church" (the Christian Community) guided by the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to say that the Bible is truth and contains truth and another thing to say that every sentence in the Bible is the literal truth. Just as Jesus used parables in his teachings, the Old Testament contains a variety of writing styles. These styles have to be seen in the context of the times and cultures they were written in.

So when do you take passages literally? Typically when God speaks directly one should take that literally. In the new Testament when Jesus speaks directly (and especially when he starts with "Amen, Amen") one should probably start taking Him literally. (But not in general; when Jesus mentions the mustard seed being the smallest of seeds, He does not mean that there does not exist, in the entire world, any seed smaller than a mustard seed. He means that this seed was the smallest that they knew of. He is setting up an example of faith and the important thing is that from the very small seed comes a gigantic tree.)

The real key is what is the message of the passage; how is that message delivered and what information is important to the passage as opposed to what information is symbolic to the passage or what information is based on the writers point of view. Then you need to know the style of the writing in the passage. Looking at the footnotes of a good Bible helps.

[tzor]

Let's examine that quote: It tells you to be watchful BECAUSE YOU WON'T KNOW when the end comes. So you should watch for something that you can't really watch for. You're going to be caught by surprise even if you're watching for it, but nevertheless you should be watchful for it. Seems a little paranoia-inducing to me.

That's not what it is saying. Let's assume we knew the day and it's next year. Well I can slack off until a week or so before next year and I'll be fine right? Only we don't know the date. It could be tomorrow, or next week. We have to live as though we can't put it off until next month; we can't procrastinate.

In other words, be watchful and always carry an umbrella because you don't know when it's going to rain.

[jonesthecurl]

So tzor, do you think we're into the End Times /Last Days right now? How about you other faithful?
We have two yes opinions.
Nobody's yet said whether they expect the "Rapture" first, I understand that the idea is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

[universalchiro]

My brother in Christ, when do you start to take the Bible literally? And by what measuring standard determines when to take the Bible literally?
Troy

The first thing to understand is the attitude of the Ethiopian Eunuch who even when reading the Old Testament needed someone to help explain it to him. Now that someone is the Pillar and Bulwark of truth, the "Church" (the Christian Community) guided by the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to say that the Bible is truth and contains truth and another thing to say that every sentence in the Bible is the literal truth. Just as Jesus used parables in his teachings, the Old Testament contains a variety of writing styles. These styles have to be seen in the context of the times and cultures they were written in.

So when do you take passages literally? Typically when God speaks directly one should take that literally. In the new Testament when Jesus speaks directly (and especially when he starts with "Amen, Amen") one should probably start taking Him literally. (But not in general; when Jesus mentions the mustard seed being the smallest of seeds, He does not mean that there does not exist, in the entire world, any seed smaller than a mustard seed. He means that this seed was the smallest that they knew of. He is setting up an example of faith and the important thing is that from the very small seed comes a gigantic tree.)

The real key is what is the message of the passage; how is that message delivered and what information is important to the passage as opposed to what information is symbolic to the passage or what information is based on the writers point of view. Then you need to know the style of the writing in the passage. Looking at the footnotes of a good Bible helps.

Let me be more clear. I'm asking specifically what verse in the Bible is the 1st verse you take literally & by what standard is that verse chosen as the 1st verse? Such as if you pick Joshua 2:15 as the first verse in the Bible that you switch from figurative reading to a literal reading. & why not the verse before it (vs 14).
That's what I'm asking, a specific verse. Thanks

[jonesthecurl]

I have a related question. I'm reluctant to ask really, cos I don't want to be the cause of too many things going on at once- b ut I think it's pertinant to this point.
Say that someone had somehow never heard of Christianity (unlikely these days I know). For thought-experiment reasons, you have limited communication with them. how much of the Bible would it be essential to get to them, and what bits would you begin with? You can assume for the thought experiment that they'll be easy to convert.
The question is for any Christian.

[universalchiro]

I have a related question. I'm reluctant to ask really, cos I don't want to be the cause of too many things going on at once- b ut I think it's pertinant to this point.
Say that someone had somehow never heard of Christianity (unlikely these days I know). For thought-experiment reasons, you have limited communication with them. how much of the Bible would it be essential to get to them, and what bits would you begin with? You can assume for the thought experiment that they'll be easy to convert.
The question is for any Christian.

If talking to a Jew, the Old Testament would be needed to establish to them that Jesus fulfills all the prophecies concerning the Messiah. Jesus' genealogy was traced through the blood line via his mother to King David to God. And from God to king David to Joseph as the legal line to Jesus. That Jesus was a virgin birth in Bethlehem. & the spirit of Elijah preceeded Him via John the Baptist. His name was Emmanuel (God with us: Jesus is God in the flesh). He rode into Jerusalem on a colt 383 years to the day. He was beaten, whipped, stripped of flesh via scourging, wore a crown of thorns & did not fight back, died & rose from the grave 3 days later. All the prior list were requirements of the messiah.
Jesus died on the same day as Holy Passover & ascended to Heaven 40 days after His resurrection.
Moses spent 40 days to get the 10 commandments, Christ fasted 40 days before beginning His ministry, Noah's flood rained for 40 days & 40 nights. Moses wondered in the wilderness for 40 years. Christ was on the earth 40 days after resurrection.
Discussing with a Jew the the word for God is Elohim. Which is plural form of one God. That Jesus was there at creation. Genesis 1:27"Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness". See the plural personal pronouns? That's because Jesus is with the Father. I would point out verses that establish no one has ever seen God. Yet Moses sees God face to face & so too do Adam & Eve, so to does Abraham? How? No one has seen God the Father, but Jesus is God in the flesh as the Son. Jesus has always been the way to the Father but He was a hidden mystery revealed 2000 years ago.

To a gentile, its best to go to creation to demonstrate God.

Whomever a Christian is talking to, the path to salvation is through Christ alone. It is a free gift, nothing we can do to earn it, otherwise we would boast in ourselves. Salvation is through faith alone. Teaching them the Bible is from God, a testimony of Himself & His requirements for us.

Christians can't persuade anyone to believe, no cleverness of speech. Only God can change the heart. & He does to all those who ask. Anyone want truth? Ask God, He will give it.

[Woodruff]

Let's examine that quote: It tells you to be watchful BECAUSE YOU WON'T KNOW when the end comes. So you should watch for something that you can't really watch for. You're going to be caught by surprise even if you're watching for it, but nevertheless you should be watchful for it. Seems a little paranoia-inducing to me.

That's not what it is saying. Let's assume we knew the day and it's next year. Well I can slack off until a week or so before next year and I'll be fine right? Only we don't know the date. It could be tomorrow, or next week. We have to live as though we can't put it off until next month; we can't procrastinate.

In other words, be watchful and always carry an umbrella because you don't know when it's going to rain.

Isn't that essentially what I said?

[Woodruff]

Nobody's yet said whether they expect the "Rapture" first, I understand that the idea is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

It's not? I always thought that was the predominant thought (it was in the church I was raised in, so I guess I am biased by that).

[Woodruff]

I have a related question. I'm reluctant to ask really, cos I don't want to be the cause of too many things going on at once- b ut I think it's pertinant to this point.
Say that someone had somehow never heard of Christianity (unlikely these days I know). For thought-experiment reasons, you have limited communication with them. how much of the Bible would it be essential to get to them, and what bits would you begin with? You can assume for the thought experiment that they'll be easy to convert.
The question is for any Christian.

That's an interesting thought, actually. I would like to think the positive stuff - basically what Jesus did and said. But maybe that's just because in comparison to most of the religious folks here, I'm a bleeding-heart liberal. <laughing>

[Woodruff]

I have a related question. I'm reluctant to ask really, cos I don't want to be the cause of too many things going on at once- b ut I think it's pertinant to this point.
Say that someone had somehow never heard of Christianity (unlikely these days I know). For thought-experiment reasons, you have limited communication with them. how much of the Bible would it be essential to get to them, and what bits would you begin with? You can assume for the thought experiment that they'll be easy to convert.
The question is for any Christian.

If talking to a Jew, the Old Testament would be needed to establish to them that Jesus fulfills all the prophecies concerning the Messiah. Jesus' genealogy was traced through the blood line via his mother to King David to God. And from God to king David to Joseph as the legal line to Jesus. That Jesus was a virgin birth in Bethlehem. & the spirit of Elijah preceeded Him via John the Baptist. His name was Emmanuel (God with us: Jesus is God in the flesh). He rode into Jerusalem on a colt 383 years to the day. He was beaten, whipped, stripped of flesh via scourging, wore a crown of thorns & did not fight back, died & rose from the grave 3 days later. All the prior list were requirements of the messiah.
Jesus died on the same day as Holy Passover & ascended to Heaven 40 days after His resurrection.
Moses spent 40 days to get the 10 commandments, Christ fasted 40 days before beginning His ministry, Noah's flood rained for 40 days & 40 nights. Moses wondered in the wilderness for 40 years. Christ was on the earth 40 days after resurrection.
Discussing with a Jew the the word for God is Elohim. Which is plural form of one God. That Jesus was there at creation. Genesis 1:27"Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness". See the plural personal pronouns? That's because Jesus is with the Father. I would point out verses that establish no one has ever seen God. Yet Moses sees God face to face & so too do Adam & Eve, so to does Abraham? How? No one has seen God the Father, but Jesus is God in the flesh as the Son. Jesus has always been the way to the Father but He was a hidden mystery revealed 2000 years ago.

To a gentile, its best to go to creation to demonstrate God.

Whomever a Christian is talking to, the path to salvation is through Christ alone. It is a free gift, nothing we can do to earn it, otherwise we would boast in ourselves. Salvation is through faith alone. Teaching them the Bible is from God, a testimony of Himself & His requirements for us.

Christians can't persuade anyone to believe, no cleverness of speech. Only God can change the heart. & He does to all those who ask. Anyone want truth? Ask God, He will give it.

So was this your attempt to prove that you don't actually read what others post (as if we were really doubting that)? Or do you believe there are Jews alive today who have never heard of Christianity?