Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!

[perchorin]

Good News! Margaret Thatcher died today. Rot in hell you piece of shit.

Disgraceful.

Disgraceful? What experience of her policies have either you or scotty had to endure?

She destroyed the British coal industry, putting thousands directly out of work, hundreds of thousands indirectly out of work. Entire communities ruined and then helped the trade deficit into the red by importing cheaper coal.
If you are living in a country like Japan with little to no natural resources, then sure, import what you need. But if you have coal in your country, then it's far better to pay your countrymen to dig it out of the ground, than to make them unemployed.

Sure, the opencast mined coal from Germany and Australia is a lot cheaper, but did we get cheaper energy? Did we f*ck.

She privatised the utilities based on the claim that the private sector runs things more efficiently. Which is total bollocks because now virtually every energy company is based overseas and a private sector company is there to make a profit.

Where did all of the money go that these private companies paid to take over running the utilities? I have no idea... None of it seemed to filter down to the average person in Britain.

She decided to sell off the social housing with massive discounts to the lucky few who could afford to buy their council houses. None of that money was reinvested in building more social housing.
The repercussions of that piece of legislation are still with us now. House prices rocketed beyond the reach of normal people. The shortfall of social housing was filled by buy to let landlords, charging rents to a council that cost more than before.

So what she did to this country was to make housing, water, electricity, and gas (basic living requirements) more expensive.

So if I come across as disgraceful, please excuse me, but this bitch fucked up this country for the majority, whilst making a select few very very rich.

When Diana died, people threw flowers on the bonnet of the hearse.

When her hearse drives down the road, expect a lot of dog shit, bottles and bricks to be thrown at the hearse.

I have no intention of debating with you about her political or economic policies. Those on the right tend to say "Look at the mess we were in before!", while the left more often than not will say exactly the same about the state of the country after she had left office.

So it is pointless to get into all that here.

My issue with your comments is about common decency. A woman has died, some will be in mourning, and I find it completely unacceptable to write such things about a democratically elected politician.

You know I absolutely detest Gordon Brown. But if he died tomorrow I wouldn't rejoice. I would think about his family and show my respect.

Well said.

[Symmetry]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

[muy_thaiguy]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Bad example. Other than the cousin he married (and subsequently died shortly after), most of his family fled Germany to the Americas and basically disowned him.

At least their descendents have disowned him.

[Symmetry]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Bad example. Other than the cousin he married (and subsequently died shortly after), most of his family fled Germany to the Americas and basically disowned him.

At least their descendents have disowned him.

Aye, they sterilized themselves. I don't think it hurts my take- a false concern over the family doesn't mean you can't make a judgement.

[Mr Changsha]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Anyone who seriously equates Thatcher with Hitler needs their head examined.

I think Thatcher is one of the great figures of the 20th century. I don't agree with all of her policies (and try and name one politician who you do completely agree with) but she was a genuine patriot with incredible conviction. She deserves the respect of the country, I think the great majority of british people do respect her..and for the vocal minority who want to 'spit on her grave' I have only contempt.

[muy_thaiguy]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Bad example. Other than the cousin he married (and subsequently died shortly after), most of his family fled Germany to the Americas and basically disowned him.

At least their descendents have disowned him.

Aye, they sterilized themselves. I don't think it hurts my take- a false concern over the family doesn't mean you can't make a judgement.

You're comparing Thatcher to a man who not only began the bloodiest conflict in world history, but a man who not only preached, but put into motion the genocide of Jews and others simply because they were what they were.

Like I said, a bad example.

[Symmetry]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Anyone who seriously equates Thatcher with Hitler needs their head examined.

I think Thatcher is one of the great figures of the 20th century. I don't agree with all of her policies (and try and name one politician who you do completely agree with) but she was a genuine patriot with incredible conviction.

This is also true of Hitler.

[Mr Changsha]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Anyone who seriously equates Thatcher with Hitler needs their head examined.

I think Thatcher is one of the great figures of the 20th century. I don't agree with all of her policies (and try and name one politician who you do completely agree with) but she was a genuine patriot with incredible conviction.

This is also true of Hitler.

Lol..

[Symmetry]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Bad example. Other than the cousin he married (and subsequently died shortly after), most of his family fled Germany to the Americas and basically disowned him.

At least their descendents have disowned him.

Aye, they sterilized themselves. I don't think it hurts my take- a false concern over the family doesn't mean you can't make a judgement.

You're comparing Thatcher to a man who not only began the bloodiest conflict in world history, but a man who not only preached, but put into motion the genocide of Jews and others simply because they were what they were.

Like I said, a bad example.

I took an extreme to make a point. Reductio ad absurdum. I don't think it hurts my take- a false concern over the family doesn't mean you can't make a judgement.

[muy_thaiguy]

Family was only one part of it. The rest, like the Holocaust and WWII really set Hitler on another level, and comparing most people to him, especially when they didn't start world wide conflicts and target minority groups to wipe out, really makes Hitler uncomparable to most people in history (with a few notable exceptions, but last I checked, Thatcher had done none of that).

[Symmetry]

Family was only one part of it. The rest, like the Holocaust and WWII really set Hitler on another level, and comparing most people to him, especially when they didn't start world wide conflicts and target minority groups to wipe out, really makes Hitler uncomparable to most people in history (with a few notable exceptions, but last I checked, Thatcher had done none of that).

I'm ok with comparisons in general, even when they show a contrast. Never really got why people shouldn't be allowed to compare two things.

[BigBallinStalin]

Family was only one part of it. The rest, like the Holocaust and WWII really set Hitler on another level, and comparing most people to him, especially when they didn't start world wide conflicts and target minority groups to wipe out, really makes Hitler uncomparable to most people in history (with a few notable exceptions, but last I checked, Thatcher had done none of that).

I'm ok with comparisons in general, even when they show a contrast. Never really got why people shouldn't be allowed to compare two things.

I agree! Nothing could be incorrect with comparing apples to oranges.

[Symmetry]

Family was only one part of it. The rest, like the Holocaust and WWII really set Hitler on another level, and comparing most people to him, especially when they didn't start world wide conflicts and target minority groups to wipe out, really makes Hitler uncomparable to most people in history (with a few notable exceptions, but last I checked, Thatcher had done none of that).

I'm ok with comparisons in general, even when they show a contrast. Never really got why people shouldn't be allowed to compare two things.

I agree! Nothing could be incorrect with comparing apples to oranges.

The arguments can be correct or incorrect. Refusing to accept they are comparable is, for example, incorrect.

[BigBallinStalin]

Family was only one part of it. The rest, like the Holocaust and WWII really set Hitler on another level, and comparing most people to him, especially when they didn't start world wide conflicts and target minority groups to wipe out, really makes Hitler uncomparable to most people in history (with a few notable exceptions, but last I checked, Thatcher had done none of that).

I'm ok with comparisons in general, even when they show a contrast. Never really got why people shouldn't be allowed to compare two things.

I agree! Nothing could be incorrect with comparing apples to oranges.

The arguments can be correct or incorrect. Refusing to accept they are comparable is, for example, incorrect.

I agree that Hitler and Thatcher were humans. They were politicians. There's a few more things in common of little consequence, but beyond that let the mad ramblings rein free.

[Haggis_McMutton]

The problem with the comparison proposed by Symm is that Hitler's death on VE directly caused some people to not be killed on VE day + 1. Hitler's actions immediately before his death were actively putting many people in danger of being killed.

Thatcher's actions immediately before her death, however, mostly involved feeding pidgeons and maybe having some tea.

[crispybits]

And also hallucinating various things - she had serious dementia in the years leading up to her death

[Iliad]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Anyone who seriously equates Thatcher with Hitler needs their head examined.

I think Thatcher is one of the great figures of the 20th century. I don't agree with all of her policies (and try and name one politician who you do completely agree with) but she was a genuine patriot with incredible conviction. She deserves the respect of the country, I think the great majority of british people do respect her..and for the vocal minority who want to 'spit on her grave' I have only contempt.

Yep, she defended the fascist leader of Chile with incredible conviction. She called Nelson Mandela a terrorsit, and patriotically supported the white apartheid state . When 96 people died due to police incompetence, she lied with incredible conviction and blamed the victims for their own deaths.

Well guess, fucking what, Liverpool fans got their wish fulfilled and had the lies exposed before Thatcher died and Nelson Mandela is still kicking. What a fantastic day. OH and I wouldn't call the entirety of Wales, Ireland and Northern England a vocal minority.

[crispybits]

So basically what you're saying is that anything you don't agree with that happened between 1979 and 1990 is her personal fault? She supported the recommendations of the initial report on Hillsborough that condemned the police, and praised it for it's thoroughness. She stopped short only of joining in actually condemning the police. that's like me supporting that the recommendations of a report that says that bank reform is needed after the credit crisis, but stopping short of actually having a go at the bankers themselves. She never supported police actions that day, she just didn't condemn them either, and she supported proposed reforms.

She also didn't support apartheid. She thought the way to get rid of apartheid wasn't to undertake terrorist operations (which people with very strong links to Mandela, if not Mandela himself, were doing), but to effect change via other diplomatic methods. In a 1985 TV interview she made her position clear: "I think that we have to have talks with people, even if we disapprove of their policies, and I think that we might perhaps sometimes influence some of them more either to understanding our views and try to influence them towards our views, if we talk to them. We cannot if we do not. I disapprove of apartheid. You cannot determine a person's rights by the colour of his skin, but that does not prevent me from talking to Prime Minister Botha and making my views clear."

As for the Pinochet thing, there is no evidence there was ever any direct contact between the two while she was in power. She supported him years later when he was arrested because Chile had helped the UK in the Falklands War, when Argentina invaded British Sovereign territory (note, not Thatcher invaded Argentina) and the British defended that territory, with an awful lot of help from intelligence from Chilean radar systems. To call Pinochet a fascist is also a lie, he was right wing for sure, but he led his country into democracy after rescuing it from a socialist government that had destroyed the economy (inflation as high as 120% per month in the later years, crippling debts from inefficient nationalised industries, and a massive trade defecit). Most of the people put down by the left wing as deaths which were Pinochet's fault were killed during the civil war that happened right at the start of his regime, and there certainly were no incidents like there were in Cuba, where the left wing Castro killed upwards of 15,000 people by firing squad because they didn't agree with his politics.

So keep trotting out the leftist propaganda if you must, but here's a question for you:

Your country is in decline. Unions are protesting left right and center and rubbish is piling up on the streets and bodies are not being buried because of strike action. Nationalised industries are requiring bigger and bigger subsidies every year from the government just to remain viable. The country's national debt is rising faster than it has at any point in the past 200 years. Tax rates as high as 98% are being imposed on those earning high wages, leading to a massive brain-drain from the country as the highly educated and highly marketable professionals are moving abroad in their droves. How do you fix that?

[jonesthecurl]

I think the great majority of british people do respect her..and for the vocal minority who want to 'spit on her grave' I have only contempt.

Do you.
http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-new ... eath-2151/

[Royal Panda]

Hate to pull the Hitler argument, but would you seriously not party in the street on VE day because his family might be upset?

Anyone who seriously equates Thatcher with Hitler needs their head examined.

I think Thatcher is one of the great figures of the 20th century. I don't agree with all of her policies (and try and name one politician who you do completely agree with) but she was a genuine patriot with incredible conviction. She deserves the respect of the country, I think the great majority of british people do respect her..and for the vocal minority who want to 'spit on her grave' I have only contempt.

Yep, she defended the fascist leader of Chile with incredible conviction. She called Nelson Mandela a terrorsit, and patriotically supported the white apartheid state . When 96 people died due to police incompetence, she lied with incredible conviction and blamed the victims for their own deaths.

Well guess, fucking what, Liverpool fans got their wish fulfilled and had the lies exposed before Thatcher died and Nelson Mandela is still kicking. What a fantastic day. OH and I wouldn't call the entirety of Wales, Ireland and Northern England a vocal minority.

+1 - but don't forget Scotland!

[jonesthecurl]

I think the great majority of british people do respect her..and for the vocal minority who want to 'spit on her grave' I have only contempt.

Do you.
http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-new ... eath-2151/

The Judy Garland version is now at no 10.

[Mr Changsha]

It may make you chaps both spitefully and deliriously happy to think all the British people detest Thatcher (and btw the rank stupidity of the 'entirety of..' comment made me laugh), but I don't think reality has much in common with your delusions.

Thatcher infuriated a section of British society precisely because she stood up for values that, actually, the majority agree with. That we should work hard, and look after our own families if we can, and pay our taxes, and try to improve ourselves, and not blame everyone else for our misfortunes. We can see that this is the case because she won 3 elections in a row and with massive majorites in 1983 and 1987. The British people were absolutely exhausted with the policies of the left by the 1980's. They knew that Labour were wrong on many fundamental issues (economic, defence, social etc) and they voted for Thatcher. And they were absolutely right to do so.

Now you can ignore the democratic result and try to claim that a woman who won 3 elections in a row was unpopular (and btw she won seats all over the country not just in the south), but one would really have to fly in the face of the evidence right in front of you. Yes, some absolutely hated her...but that is one of the reasons I respected her so much. That she pissed you off so much lets me know she was on the right track. The British people knew this too...which is why they voted her in with massive majorities.

If the best you can produce to support your argument is that a few thousand people have downloaded a song 23 years after she left office (or whatever other spurious crap you have in line) then I gently suggest you have a bit of a re-think. The historical record is absolutely clear: Margaret Thatcher was extremely popular in the 1980's, that's why she won her elections.

[jonesthecurl]

So why did her own party turf her out?

[crispybits]

Because public support was starting to wane, and they wanted to win another election. Plus she was anti-EMU and most of her party were for that kind of European integration (history seems to have proven her right on that point)

The main cause of her unpopularity with the public was undoubtedly the poll tax. It wiped 10s of percentage points off the Tories overnight.

[jonesthecurl]

...so she stopped being popular.