F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

[IcePack]

F400 as it is now favors elitism, will take that in consideration next time I organize clan event.

Probably will have to put some point limit for entrance, cause in my opinion win has to give you points.

This is a pretty extreme reaction for a 1 game difference of opinion. TOFU got 10-2 and wanted points vs the very bottom clan, where the F400 rated at 11-1. One game in the most extreme of circumstances.

They won't be "losing points gallore" if they join RL again next year, but when there are major differences in points (bigger differences then ever had before) it expects high results.

[Chariot of Fire]

Ice....is there a minimum number of games that is required to be played between two clans for the result to be incorporated in the F400? 12 is already quite small; I'm just wondering if it could be any smaller?

[IcePack]

Ice....is there a minimum number of games that is required to be played between two clans for the result to be incorporated in the F400? 12 is already quite small; I'm just wondering if it could be any smaller?

It was 18, and was moved to 12 to accommodate an event I believe w public support. It may have even been RL.

The number shouldnt go any smaller than 12

[benga]

F400 as it is now favors elitism, will take that in consideration next time I organize clan event.

Probably will have to put some point limit for entrance, cause in my opinion win has to give you points.

I think you should hold a vote on that .

Yeah, and did not you voted for option 1 in CC4 which also favors elitism and losing points for big margin wins (it would happen matches 1v32 2v31 etc) and now you say opinion that some point limit to enter a competition should be set up in order to not penalize top clans ranking by playing vs lower clans? To me it seems very inconsistent opinion, in voting you support that to happen and here you suggest making tournament set up which would not allow that.

There were option 3 in the voting which would eliminate situations which you consider like problem here, that top clans wins vs lower clans and still lose points. In format 3, IF there would happen that top clan even play vs lower clan (very unlikely to happen), it would be vs lower clan who is right now in 2 wins in a row series, so their rank will for sure not be anymore in very bottom of the table. Problem solved! But not everyone is able to read between the lines.

Maybe the concept of league and cup is same to you, but it ain't to others.

Also I want RL to be better each year and KORT will never even consider taking part of this event so why you bother?

Was glad when TOFU joined, as with that sign-up some other top clans joined, so it became much stronger and competitive league.

I will not certainly make any limits, but isn't ridiculous that KORT even when not bringing any score in still is being rewarded with points, while TOFU is penalized for bringing in wins.

In the end in won't matter will TOFU join any upcoming RLs (I will run it anyway as I enjoy it), but I also want it as strong as I can.

Ice....is there a minimum number of games that is required to be played between two clans for the result to be incorporated in the F400? 12 is already quite small; I'm just wondering if it could be any smaller?

It was 18, and was moved to 12 to accommodate an event I believe w public support. It may have even been RL.

The number shouldnt go any smaller than 12

For CL4, I found the format satisfying so changed the RL to accommodate it.

[Chariot of Fire]

We were happy to join RL mate - it's been fun so far. Only drawback is the fairly harsh calculation given the very small sample size, coz 12 games isn't a lot and we all know some weird stuff can happen (and for sure the dice are cyclical, with highs and lows). Having to go 90% is pretty tough when the maps are random. But I'm not complaining - I'd rather be in the tourney than out of it and the points don't really mean that much unless we were, say, ranked 8th or 9th and a Top 8 seeding system was used for a major tourney. But if we were 8th or 9th the loss of points wouldn't be as great (or rather the requirement to win by a huge margin wouldn't exist) so I guess it's horses for courses. I'm happy

[josko.ri]

I will not certainly make any limits, but isn't ridiculous that KORT even when not bringing any score in still is being rewarded with points, while TOFU is penalized for bringing in wins.

When I discuss with someone minimum what I expect is that he is telling true information. KORT lost 3 points in last month, so how is it true that "KORT even when not bringing any score in still is being rewarded with points"? When you construct some argument, please avoid telling lies.

I am glad that RL is progressing and for me personally it is good set up. We just did not join because we were overloaded for 3 years by constantly playing on high level in 2 or 3 simultaneous competitions. If we were eliminated in early phase of some tournament, we would for sure consider joining to fill the hole in our schedule. Even now, we have like 30 active players and for years we had less than 25, so it is not excluded that we may join it.

[Dako]

Random league is extra fun. We always loved Random as a map and did two all-random challenges. So that league suits us perfectly.

[jetsetwilly]

Hey Ice.

As per our chat, can we have a quick debate on the view of the Empire/AOC situation.

Current plan is to reset the merged clan and move us to the bottom of the pile. We briefly discussed whether it was appropriate to instead merge the results of the two clans to create a new position.

I'm not asking as a CD, and we will go with whatever decision is made but in reference to the post made by COF on another thread, I thought it was at least worth having the debate here.

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=188694&start=45#p4123939

[niMic]

I think it makes a lot of sense to in some way combine the results of the clans, but add a small "penalty". After all, it is far from certain that the new clan will be able to perform as well as the two old ones did individually, or have the same team chemistry, etc.

[IcePack]

Sure Jet!
So I went and read the debate in the other thread, and your intent was to start new as shown by dropping from CL5. here is the options from F400 perspective.

1) two clans merge into new clan, start fresh in F400 no problem (although might be from CC4/CL5 perspective cuz I don't know entry restrictions).

2) Empire goes social / ceases to exist and AOC gains many new members. (or vice versa) this is also easy for me, the only question is whether or not clan world is willing to essentially let two clans merge into what is, all intents, a new clan. However the longer I thought about this, if AOC takes members from EMP, the lower ranked clan it's ok. EMP ranked lower than AOC, if it was the other way around I think EMP could see a big boost in score and not entirely the same happy feeling (me personally, not me F400).

3) two clans merge w a rename, and combining of stats. As we discussed jet this has some practical problems for me to overcome on F400. Also to get truly accurate results, it's going to take quite a bit of time. I THINK it's possible, but I would have to go to pretty far lengths to make it.

Note: F400 is based on war results, and dates. It's very difficult to use any sort of penalty system from a practical standpoint.

[chapcrap]

3) two clans merge w a rename, and combining of stats. As we discussed jet this has some practical problems for me to overcome on F400. Also to get truly accurate results, it's going to take quite a bit of time. I THINK it's possible, but I would have to go to pretty far lengths to make it.

I think this is not a good idea. It will effect other clans' scores as well. They weren't combined the past two years, so combining at this point changes everything for the past two years.

[IcePack]

3) two clans merge w a rename, and combining of stats. As we discussed jet this has some practical problems for me to overcome on F400. Also to get truly accurate results, it's going to take quite a bit of time. I THINK it's possible, but I would have to go to pretty far lengths to make it.

I think this is not a good idea. It will effect other clans' scores as well. They weren't combined the past two years, so combining at this point changes everything for the past two years.

Yes, I had told jet I wasn't sure if this is even possible. It would take some time and energy just to clarify whether it is. There are still a few hurdles I haven't been able to figure out

[Leehar]

Again for the record, our intent wasn't to start a new clan. Our intent was to merge with everything that word entails. So the word 'new' never entered into the discussion early on, since we really wouldn't be a new clan.

However, for practical purposes we were told that CL5 continuation wasn't possible (Though I thought being the same clan in phase 2 needn't be such an issue) which was why that competition was dropped
(alongside the thoughts that these are separate clans different from a combined one, rather than them being part of it's very make-up? Which is why the 1 competitive clan rule came into play)


My idea for F400 was just adding the 2 current scores together, and dividing them by 2. Therefore, the weightings etc of past results also get included in the combined results as a factor, while it continues on counting for other clans.

That doesn't account for synergistic benefits, but it seemed a viable option

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[Leehar]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=438&t=188694&p=4124127#p4124127

We considered all the options available to us at great length. I won't get into the details

^^
I went into detail for you? Feel free to discuss it further

[IcePack]

My idea for F400 was just adding the 2 current scores together, and dividing them by 2. Therefore, the weightings etc of past results also get included in the combined results as a factor, while it continues on counting for other clans.

Unfortunately this isn't practical / possible.

[Chariot of Fire]

I can't see how the merging of clans ranked #3 & #7 can't be simply treated as the higher-ranked clan becoming stronger (and thus their record remains in situ and they keep their rank on the table).

If I change my username and start with 1,000pts is it fair to the opponents I would then be facing? I don't think so, and I fail to see how this is any different.

Forgive me if I trouble you in future with the question "How many games do we have to beat the superclan AoC/Empire by in order to not lose a ton of points?" I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.

[IcePack]

I can't see how the merging of clans ranked #3 & #7 can't be simply treated as the higher-ranked clan becoming stronger (and thus their record remains in situ and they keep their rank on the table).

If I change my username and start with 1,000pts is it fair to the opponents I would then be facing? I don't think so, and I fail to see how this is any different.

Forgive me if I trouble you in future with the question "How many games do we have to beat the superclan AoC/Empire by in order to not lose a ton of points?" I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.

Which is option 2, which I said would be acceptable...?

[Chariot of Fire]

It's the contradiction of them not being seeded in CC4 that prompted me to ask - almost as if it has become a fait accompli that they are a 'new clan' with a new starting point on the F400. If your Option 2 is the outcome, then great. It means they will still be on the F400 where they belong and also warrant them being seeded in CC4, otherwise the whole integrity of the seeding system (and the F400) will have been lost.

[Doc_Brown]

It's the contradiction of them not being seeded in CC4 that prompted me to ask - almost as if it has become a fait accompli that they are a 'new clan' with a new starting point on the F400. If your Option 2 is the outcome, then great. It means they will still be on the F400 where they belong and also warrant them being seeded in CC4, otherwise the whole integrity of the seeding system (and the F400) will have been lost.

And if they do end us seeded last on F400, CC4 should consider using the "Coaches Poll" instead of F400 since it will be more accurate in this case and in the case of Atlantis.

Edit: Thinking about it again, I guess CoF's biggest concern is not where the clans are seeded in CCup4 so much as the fact that the first clan they play will be virtually guaranteed a huge point loss. So my point above his very minor relevance.

[agentcom]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

[kizkiz]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

Seems the most logical decision
Either one clan retains name and rank with added new players and other clan ends....or it's a whole new clan starting fresh

[IcePack]

That's probably the route it will end up. There will be a full update on the 15th, I didn't go into all the new details we discussed adding because I wasn't sure if the AOC/EMP was a joke or not on the 1st., so didn't want to have wasted much time on a possibly fake update.

[josko.ri]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

This is wrong way. At first, giving them points of higher clan is causing imbalance in F400 system, where it is supposed that average points of all clans is 1000. At second, it is at big favor to those clans, because half of them are worth 1239 and other half are worth 1315 and now we conclude that all are worth 1315.

What I suggest?

Right now EMP has weight 385 games and rank 1239, while AoC has weight 408 and rank 1315. So their total weight is 793, and rank can be calculated easy by mathematical equation.

New rank = [1239*(385/793)+1315*(408/793)]=1278. The most fair way, and includes averaged performance of both clans together with average weight of both clans. So on this way, it can be calculated their finishing rank after all their matches finish (AoC semis CC4, 3 sets in CL5, and EMPvsFALL), and the result can be starting rank for the new clan. So only difference would then be that starting result for the new clan is not 1000 but is some number which will be gotten as result of this equation.

[IcePack]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

This is wrong way. At first, giving them points of higher clan is causing imbalance in F400 system, where it is supposed that average points of all clans is 1000. At second, it is at big favor to those clans, because half of them are worth 1239 and other half are worth 1315 and now we conclude that all are worth 1315.

What I suggest?

Right now EMP has weight 385 games and rank 1239, while AoC has weight 408 and rank 1315. So their total weight is 793, and rank can be calculated easy by mathematical equation.

New rank = [1239*(385/793)+1315*(408/793)]=1278. The most fair way, and includes averaged performance of both clans together with average weight of both clans. So on this way, it can be calculated their finishing rank after all their matches finish (AoC semis CC4, 3 sets in CL5, and EMPvsFALL), and the result can be starting rank for the new clan. So only difference would then be that starting result for the new clan is not 1000 but is some number which will be gotten as result of this equation.

Not exactly the same, but similar. To repeat myself...

My idea for F400 was just adding the 2 current scores together, and dividing them by 2. Therefore, the weightings etc of past results also get included in the combined results as a factor, while it continues on counting for other clans.

Unfortunately this isn't practical / possible.