CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

[Doc_Brown]

If you ask me for rank format ideas, I would put mine #1, qwert's #2, IcePack's "leave it as it is" #3 and your current idea #4.

I'd still put mine (which you've ignored) as #1 - fixed bracket with the top 8 as fixed seeds and random draw for the other positions.

+1

[Foxglove]

In regards to timing out. The Cup and the Clan league are CD led events. We cannot condone any perceived methods of cheating. If you take a territory you get a card. That is the way the game is designed and we can't allow any exploitation of loopholes. If you claim timed out by "accident" and this time out leads to your team gaining an advantage then the game will be remade. However If the time out, the 1st course of action will be to speak to both clans and see if they want the game to be remade. We can also wait until the game finishes. It will be up to the wronged clan to make the final decision, but if they want a remake they will get one. My advice is to make sure you don't time out

This only applies to escalating and Nuclear spoils.

Am I the only one who feels like it's ridiculous to create and enforce arbitrary rules around timing out? If people are aware that it's possible they can adjust their strategy accordingly. And then we let the rules of the games be exactly what the site has implemented, and there will be no need whatsoever for a list of rules to alter the mechanics of the way the site is coded, there will be no need for allegations of cheating, there will be no need for subjective determinations by the CDs as to what might constitute cheating, there will be no chance that the subjective determination by CDs might be unfairly biased depending on the players or the clans involved, and there will be no possibility of games being remade in some instances and not in others.

I know I've said it before, but I loathe subjective rules. And I know that the response will be that the CDs will consider things fairly, blah blah blah - but really, I don't trust that to be true when all of the CDs are heavily invested in their own clans and the opinions of the clan world in general.

[josko.ri]

If you ask me for rank format ideas, I would put mine #1, qwert's #2, IcePack's "leave it as it is" #3 and your current idea #4.

I'd still put mine (which you've ignored) as #1 - fixed bracket with the top 8 as fixed seeds and random draw for the other positions.

+1

Sorry I forgot about this, yu weren't vocal enough or I wasnt active enough or both. may you give link?

@Dako: I may put strong and weak points which make me rank that way, together with FISO7s idea. I just need some time to do so.

But point of my previous post is not about ranking ideas, it is at the end just my opinion, everyone will have his opinion about ranking formats. That is why voting is the best way to determine which is the best. BUT, voting for original idea of every idea's author, not for 'a little' changed idea made by you.

[Foxglove]

1. Why does a clan have to have 15 members? If 126 spots have to be filled and the quota per player is 12 games, then a clan needs just 11 members to fulfill the requirements for Play-in, Rnd of 32 and Rnd of 16.

I think that rule is unnecessary and should be done away with entirely. If we already have rules about the maximum number of games a player can play in per match it is irrelevant how many players the clan actually has - the games per player limitation will already shape the number of clan members required. And if a clan finds itself short, it had better recruit.

[Arama86n]

In regards to timing out. The Cup and the Clan league are CD led events. We cannot condone any perceived methods of cheating. If you take a territory you get a card. That is the way the game is designed and we can't allow any exploitation of loopholes. If you claim timed out by "accident" and this time out leads to your team gaining an advantage then the game will be remade. However If the time out, the 1st course of action will be to speak to both clans and see if they want the game to be remade. We can also wait until the game finishes. It will be up to the wronged clan to make the final decision, but if they want a remake they will get one. My advice is to make sure you don't time out

This only applies to escalating and Nuclear spoils.

Am I the only one who feels like it's ridiculous to create and enforce arbitrary rules around timing out? If people are aware that it's possible they can adjust their strategy accordingly. And then we let the rules of the games be exactly what the site has implemented, and there will be no need whatsoever for a list of rules to alter the mechanics of the way the site is coded, there will be no need for allegations of cheating, there will be no need for subjective determinations by the CDs as to what might constitute cheating, there will be no chance that the subjective determination by CDs might be unfairly biased depending on the players or the clans involved, and there will be no possibility of games being remade in some instances and not in others.

I know I've said it before, but I loathe subjective rules. And I know that the response will be that the CDs will consider things fairly, blah blah blah - but really, I don't trust that to be true when all of the CDs are heavily invested in their own clans and the opinions of the clan world in general.

You are not the only one.

[Dako]

Am I the only one who feels like it's ridiculous to create and enforce arbitrary rules around timing out? If people are aware that it's possible they can adjust their strategy accordingly. And then we let the rules of the games be exactly what the site has implemented, and there will be no need whatsoever for a list of rules to alter the mechanics of the way the site is coded, there will be no need for allegations of cheating, there will be no need for subjective determinations by the CDs as to what might constitute cheating, there will be no chance that the subjective determination by CDs might be unfairly biased depending on the players or the clans involved, and there will be no possibility of games being remade in some instances and not in others.

I know I've said it before, but I loathe subjective rules. And I know that the response will be that the CDs will consider things fairly, blah blah blah - but really, I don't trust that to be true when all of the CDs are heavily invested in their own clans and the opinions of the clan world in general.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don't like subjective rules and I'd remove that altogether :(.

@Dako: I may put strong and weak points which make me rank that way, together with FISO7s idea. I just need some time to do so.

But point of my previous post is not about ranking ideas, it is at the end just my opinion, everyone will have his opinion about ranking formats. That is why voting is the best way to determine which is the best. BUT, voting for original idea of every idea's author, not for 'a little' changed idea made by you.

Are you telling me that I cannot offer my own ideas here? I will participate in this CCup as much as any other person. So you can consider "little changed idea" as my own idea, 100% genuine that has been influenced by other people. We are in no rush here so take your time explaining how you see things.

I think that rule is unnecessary and should be done away with entirely. If we already have rules about the maximum number of games a player can play in per match it is irrelevant how many players the clan actually has - the games per player limitation will already shape the number of clan members required. And if a clan finds itself short, it had better recruit. :)

I am ok with dropping that rule. Your logic is sound and I like Occam's razor as well :).

[Chariot of Fire]

In regards to timing out. The Cup and the Clan league are CD led events. We cannot condone any perceived methods of cheating. If you take a territory you get a card. That is the way the game is designed and we can't allow any exploitation of loopholes. If you claim timed out by "accident" and this time out leads to your team gaining an advantage then the game will be remade. However If the time out, the 1st course of action will be to speak to both clans and see if they want the game to be remade. We can also wait until the game finishes. It will be up to the wronged clan to make the final decision, but if they want a remake they will get one. My advice is to make sure you don't time out

This only applies to escalating and Nuclear spoils.

Am I the only one who feels like it's ridiculous to create and enforce arbitrary rules around timing out? If people are aware that it's possible they can adjust their strategy accordingly. And then we let the rules of the games be exactly what the site has implemented, and there will be no need whatsoever for a list of rules to alter the mechanics of the way the site is coded, there will be no need for allegations of cheating, there will be no need for subjective determinations by the CDs as to what might constitute cheating, there will be no chance that the subjective determination by CDs might be unfairly biased depending on the players or the clans involved, and there will be no possibility of games being remade in some instances and not in others.

I know I've said it before, but I loathe subjective rules. And I know that the response will be that the CDs will consider things fairly, blah blah blah - but really, I don't trust that to be true when all of the CDs are heavily invested in their own clans and the opinions of the clan world in general.

Hear hear

[josko.ri]

@Dako: I may put strong and weak points which make me rank that way, together with FISO7s idea. I just need some time to do so.

But point of my previous post is not about ranking ideas, it is at the end just my opinion, everyone will have his opinion about ranking formats. That is why voting is the best way to determine which is the best. BUT, voting for original idea of every idea's author, not for 'a little' changed idea made by you.

Are you telling me that I cannot offer my own ideas here? I will participate in this CCup as much as any other person. So you can consider "little changed idea" as my own idea, 100% genuine that has been influenced by other people. We are in no rush here so take your time explaining how you see things.

I am telling you can offer your ideas here, but then say that it is your idea, not that it is idea concluded from this discussion. From previous conversation, it sounded like you want present that the idea came as conclusion of the whole discussion here, not as your own opinion.

[IcePack]

Just to clarify its not "my idea" to leave it as is.

It was Chuuucks idea. And was the entire basis of having the cup for 3 years, and everybody enjoyed. It was designed to be a simple bracket tournament for the entire clan area.

A lot of these suggestions go way beyond "simple braket tournament" which is what I object to. We are going away from what the whole tournament was designed to be.

Simple to run. Simple to plan for. Simple objective - "win".

[josko.ri]

Simple to run. Simple to plan for. Simple objective - "win".

Continue with this analogy, and you will come to simple play style Classic, Flat Rate, Adjacent, sunny (original settings of Risk)

If simpler is better then why not we all play 61 games sets on that map/settings but we somehow more enjoy at some new/improved options that this site gives to us? The original format of risk achieved great success worldwide so why we even want to add new maps, improvements, whatever this site added when the original worked great?

[IcePack]

Simple to run. Simple to plan for. Simple objective - "win".

Continue with this analogy, and you will come to simple play style Classic, Flat Rate, Adjacent, sunny (original settings of Risk)

If simpler is better then why not we all play 61 games sets on that map/settings but we somehow more enjoy at some new/improved options that this site gives to us? The original format of risk achieved great success worldwide so why we even want to add new maps, improvements, whatever this site added when the original worked great?

Your talking about maps and settings.

I'm talking about an event, a tournament. Something many sports use every year for their playoff / finals. There's seeding for a reason, no random draws, etc.

CL5 has all the random draws, pots, to reflect those other "options". Why can't this remain how it was and be a simple bracket tournament?

Making it more and more like CL5 just reduces the amount of variety clans receive in these events, because they become more and more similiar. Some people like those things, some don't. The Cl5 already exists, so why can't we keep this one the way it was? Simple.

Being over dramatic and discussing something completely different is just wasting your time.

[josko.ri]

Simple to run. Simple to plan for. Simple objective - "win".

Continue with this analogy, and you will come to simple play style Classic, Flat Rate, Adjacent, sunny (original settings of Risk)

If simpler is better then why not we all play 61 games sets on that map/settings but we somehow more enjoy at some new/improved options that this site gives to us? The original format of risk achieved great success worldwide so why we even want to add new maps, improvements, whatever this site added when the original worked great?

Your talking about maps and settings.

I'm talking about an event, a tournament. Something many sports use every year for their playoff / finals. There's seeding for a reason, no random draws, etc.

CL5 has all the random draws, pots, to reflect those other "options". Why can't this remain how it was and be a simple bracket tournament?

Making it more and more like CL5 just reduces the amount of variety clans receive in these events, because they become more and more similiar. Some people like those things, some don't. The Cl5 already exists, so why can't we keep this one the way it was? Simple.

Being over dramatic and discussing something completely different is just wasting your time.

Also in CL5 there are 200+ maps to choose from, so why not put just Classic map? Simple and different than CL5. I am just showing how argument "simpler=better" is not working.
In CL5 there were not random draw, for example KORT could not meet TOFU in any case of draw, so it is not random. Random draw is when everyone can play vs every opponent and only luck says who will face who.

[IcePack]

Oh I'm sorry - so CL5 didn't create pots and then RANDOMLY DRAW qualification groups?

Oh wait.... - yes they did.

[chapcrap]

When you say the top 4 in F400 get a bye to the round of 16, I have two qualms with that. First, you don't know how many will sign up, so predetermining that could give them two byes or give them no byes. Why not just say that they will get one bye?

Second, I think if byes are to be given, it should be to the people who were top in the previous cup, not in the F400.

[Keefie]

Second, I think if byes are to be given, it should be to the people who were top in the previous cup, not in the F400.

I'll go one further and ask, Why should any clan receive a bye at all ????

So those poor pampered souls in Kort, Tofu etc can have a nice little rest and then a preferential draw after that. That is just so wrong.

[Foxglove]

I have a few questions about the organization and running of this tournament - outside of the specific rules that have previously been discussed.

I am quoting a few of Nicky's comments, but my remarks are to all the CDs in general.

The CDs took ownership of both the league and the cup this year making them official clan events. we did this because both tournaments have faced their issues. Now while the CDs do not run them, we are heavily involved so if something were to happen to the TO, we are fully aware of the tournament workings and can step in and take over without causing delay.

There is quite a difference between "taking ownership of" and "being fully aware of the tournament workings". I am very curious to know - which is it? At what point did Dako request you to take ownership of this event? And what does that mean? If the CDs won't be doing the work of running the event, does ownership just mean that the CDs demand oversight and decision making over the tournament in exchange for granting game-making privileges to the individual match-ups, even if the match-ups already meet the requirements for a war that's eligible for game-making privileges?

We will only insist that being a member of CDF is compulsory for these two main competitions.

Why is this a CD decision and not Dako's decision? Again, my understanding is that Dako is hosting and organizing this edition of the cup.

The Cup and the Clan league are CD led events.

Can someone please provide me a link to where it was decided that the cup is led by the CDs? Or was this voted upon in CDF?

We cannot condone any perceived methods of cheating. If you take a territory you get a card. That is the way the game is designed and we can't allow any exploitation of loopholes.

And not to beat a dead horse about the timing-out /card issue, but it actually is very explicitly NOT the way that the game is designed. "If you take a territory you get a card" may be the way people EXPECT the game to behave, but clearly that is not the case. This can be proven by taking a territory in a card game and then not forting or otherwise ending your turn. You don't receive a card.

I guess the tl,dr; summary of my post is:
It's my understanding that Dako is running the cup, and I believe that Dako should be the one making the final decisions about rules to be included or not.

[IcePack]

I believe it was a decision by the CD's unilaterally, to take over both events. No vote or request by Dako / qwert was made.

[jghost7]

Just to clarify its not "my idea" to leave it as is.
... It was designed to be a simple bracket tournament for the entire clan area.

A lot of these suggestions go way beyond "simple braket tournament" which is what I object to. We are going away from what the whole tournament was designed to be.

...

...

CL5 has all the random draws, pots, to reflect those other "options". Why can't this remain how it was and be a simple bracket tournament?

Making it more and more like CL5 just reduces the amount of variety clans receive in these events, because they become more and more similiar. Some people like those things, some don't. The Cl5 already exists, so why can't we keep this one the way it was? Simple. ...

+1+1

[Qwert]

I believe it was a decision by the CD's unilaterally, to take over both events. No vote or request by Dako / qwert was made.

I dont create CL events,,im only host of CL5,, next years some other will be host of CL.

CL5 has all the random draws, pots, to reflect those other "options"

To be correct CL had only one random draw,in beginning, and will not have anymore random draws in second stage.

I think that people like surprise competition, excitement when you dont know who will be your opponent. I know that for you its better old system when you play 1 vs 32 and 2 vs 31, but these its standard competition in all possible cup events , so something new random or semi-random , could only be big + for competition.
Im all ready explane that right from beginning, we draw clans with equal strength, to avoid stronger vs weaker clan , and how competition moving ,we get stronger and stronger pairs in Round 2, 3 Quarter Final. From these Everybody will have advantage and benefit .
Now i dont understand why you oppose these, even Fall will want to have equal rank clans to start competition(i think)
If you look CC3 Round 2 , from 16 pairs, except in two match, all other match win high ranked clans, and some results was very high (Tofu-Soh 35-5====Pack-Ra 34-7====TSM-tlw 33-8).

[Nicky15]

I will answer most of these but Bruce wants to comment

There is quite a difference between "taking ownership of" and "being fully aware of the tournament workings". I am very curious to know - which is it? At what point did Dako request you to take ownership of this event? And what does that mean? If the CDs won't be doing the work of running the event, does ownership just mean that the CDs demand oversight and decision making over the tournament in exchange for granting game-making privileges to the individual match-ups, even if the match-ups already meet the requirements for a war that's eligible for game-making privileges?

As i mentioned before, The clan league and Cup both have had issues over the years. Yes we have taken ownership, but no we are not running them. The CDs are heavily involved in the league, and have helped with the running/organizing. The cup we have not had much input, as once the format is decided it is not hard to manage. Its a huge undertaking for just one person, especially the clan league. If something were to happen to the TO in real life like the last league and cup, then there will be no delays in organization or updates as the CDs can just step in and take over. The CDs decided to make these events Official clan events as they represent the clan worlds two main competitions and as such we believe they should be fair to all clans. May I add Dako does not own the cup either. It was not his to begin with. The Original TO is no longer with us, and Dako very kindly stepped in mid cup last year.

Why is this a CD decision and not Dako's decision? Again, my understanding is that Dako is hosting and organizing this edition of the cup.

Again like i mentioned before, The Cd team are very keen for all clans to have a say in how the two main competitions are run. They are the ones playing them, and one person should not be picking and choosing all the rules, clans should be getting a say. CDF is where the votes take place. If your clan is not in the CDF they can't have their say. Also meeting the requirements to be a member means that the clan is of a standing that makes them more unlikely to pull out and disrupt the competition.

I will add that the only thing the CDs are insisting on for the cup is that people be members of CDF and the very hard fought for timing out rule remains in place. Bruce will reply more on the timing out rule. But I am only seeing two clans out of 50 complaining about it so far. The format and other rules are for Dako to have the final decision on. All we are doing is offering suggestions.

CDs demand oversight and decision making over the tournament in exchange for granting game-making privileges to the individual match-ups, even if the match-ups already meet the requirements for a war that's eligible for game-making privileges?

We do not demand oversight we made the decision to oversee these events for reasons stated above. Neither competition had an owner. They should belong to the clan world, and it is The CDs job to make sure these events are run well, and are fair to all. We have a duty to do that for every war, tournament and competition in the clan world. That is a CDs main role. We do not grant privileges in general for anything unless it is fair and meets the requirements. We will not be denying anyone anything.

[Foxglove]

As i mentioned before, The clan league and Cup both have had issues over the years.

What issues in previous events will the CDs required rules help prevent? Can you provide some specific examples, please? Issues caused by organizers going absent have nothing to do with additional rules.

Yes we have taken ownership, but no we are not running them.

Can you please clarify what ownership means? You get to decide which rules are mandatory (on top of the previous war requirements that we've had for years)? You delegate who does the work of organizing events?

The CDs are heavily involved in the league, and have helped with the running/organizing. The cup we have not had much input, as once the format is decided it is not hard to manage.

So the only benefit you see to CD involvement in the cup is deciding on the initial rules?

Its a huge undertaking for just one person, especially the clan league. If something were to happen to the TO in real life like the last league and cup, then there will be no delays in organization or updates as the CDs can just step in and take over.

Yes, that makes sense.

The CDs decided to make these events Official clan events as they represent the clan worlds two main competitions and as such we believe they should be fair to all clans. May I add Dako does not own the cup either. It was not his to begin with. The Original TO is no longer with us, and Dako very kindly stepped in mid cup last year.

I think the tournament is "owned" by whoever is doing the work of running it, just like any other tournament. The league is a different beast. But the cup is just a framework for a series of organized wars. Tournament organizers should be able to make the rules for events they run. Has anyone ever claimed that previous editions of the cup weren't fair to all clans?

Why is this a CD decision and not Dako's decision? Again, my understanding is that Dako is hosting and organizing this edition of the cup.

Again like i mentioned before, The Cd team are very keen for all clans to have a say in how the two main competitions are run. They are the ones playing them, and one person should not be picking and choosing all the rules, clans should be getting a say.

The cup is the most popular clan event, I think? If clans felt that they were being treated unfairly they probably wouldn't continue to join it. And yet, every year has more clans than the previous year.

CDF is where the votes take place. If your clan is not in the CDF they can't have their say.

I think the demise of the CLA proved how completely ineffectual it is to have every clan vote on every issue.

I will add that the only thing the CDs are insisting on for the cup is that people be members of CDF and the very hard fought for timing out rule remains in place. Bruce will reply more on the timing out rule. But I am only seeing two clans out of 50 complaining about it so far. The format and other rules are for Dako to have the final decision on. All we are doing is offering suggestions.

That's so clearly not true! You've said so many times in this thread that you own the event, and you and are requiring rules that the organizer *doesn't want*.

CDs demand oversight and decision making over the tournament in exchange for granting game-making privileges to the individual match-ups, even if the match-ups already meet the requirements for a war that's eligible for game-making privileges?

We do not demand oversight we made the decision to oversee these events for reasons stated above.

Demanding oversight is *exactly* what you did. What else can it possibly mean to say that you have taken ownership of an event that someone else is running?

We do not grant privileges in general for anything unless it is fair and meets the requirements.

Great. I think we've had rules established for fair wars for years now.

[IcePack]

I pretty much agree w fox here..

[angola]

I would point out that tournament organizers - in the tournament part of CC - can't make up any rules they want for their individual tournaments.

There are guidelines in place there regarding even the most minute of details. So, having general guidelines in the Clan World should not be viewed as odd, at least not for Conquer Club.

[Foxglove]

I pretty much agree w fox here..

Thank you.

I want to add that I do appreciate the work that the CDs do in terms of maintaining the clan war database, ensuring that wars meet minimum standards for game privileges, and dealing with issues that come up in war threads.

I just personally feel like it's presumptuous and unnecessary for the CDs to unilaterally decide that they are now the owners of the CCup and get to enforce additional rules upon the event. The cup has been fantastically successful and will hopefully continue to get better. Yes, there have been issues, but we've always worked through them, and I think the vast majority of clans have always been excited to participate. Let's keep it that way, and let's let the clan directors continue to provide support for clans, and not insist on decision-making and guidance.

[IcePack]

I would point out that tournament organizers - in the tournament part of CC - can't make up any rules they want for their individual tournaments.

There are guidelines in place there regarding even the most minute of details. So, having general guidelines in the Clan World should not be viewed as odd, at least not for Conquer Club.

Very generally - yes. Tournaments can't go over a year, min number of participants, etc.
But those tournaments are given huge leeway and ability to modify things according to their own TO goals and allow for rules and settings as they see fit.

There are no votes for majority opinion from participants to create / modify the rules of the TO for example.