CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

[IcePack]

Yes I understand schedule wise the desire for byes but I think each clan should be given a chance for the upset. It's unlikely, but look at OSA. They were 24th seeded at start of CC3 and nearly had a run at KORT, rank 1. We can't assume starting seed / rank just are easy wins.

I know it's different, but every once in awhile you have "Cinderella stories" in sports. If the wars are "so easy", then the easy games will be like a break in itself? Or they can run partial rosters first few rounds to give those who need rest a break.

[HardAttack]

cup format looks pretty cool, good job dako

[Qwert]

I dont understand why will each match need to worth medal? Why can we build real Cup competition, where winner ,runner up,,and third place will get medals.
Also decrease number of games per round, will speed these competition,to not last over 1 year.

Finale-61 game (Medal for Winner and Runner UP)
Third place-61 game (Medal For Third Place)
round of 4-31 game
Round of 8-31 game
Round of 16-21 games
round of 32- 21 games
--------------------------------
In any cup competition we know who get medal,,but here everybody get medal, so value of competition who are last over 1 year are decrease.

In League , only winners will be medal recipient,, what are proper ,and what increase value of LEague Competition.

[IcePack]

When I brought up medals in CL5 qwert you stated that CL5 wasn't CC4. Just because CL5 doesn't have many medals doesn't mean CC4 shouldn't - they are seperate events.

I could see going to less games for round of 32 maybe (I'd hate to be rank 16 and 17 and have 21 games decide if you get a chance to go further in the event) but full wars (and medals) should be the rest of the way. But I like having a long event like this. That's part of the draw

[Vid_FISO]

Why go 1v32, 2v31 ..... ?

Free medals for the top clans and a waste of time for the weakest? Competition for those in the middle in the first round but at least half of the match ups are going to be effectively walk-overs?

I don't believe anyone's going to address this point unless you propose a suggestion. Also, you're assuming the lower-ranked clan will lose every time in round 1. The underdog stands to move up in the rankings should they win (and three underdogs won in the first round of CC3).

Plenty of sports out there with cup competitions and I'd presume a lot of experienced TOs in here that have run tourneys with a lot of different KO formats.

But for a "fairer" suggestion taken from tennis. seed the top 8 (working on 32 entries) in the same way for a fixed bracket so that they are the only ones with a fixed starting position in the bracket, other 24 positions are a random draw. Could possibly still give 1v32, 2v31 or 1v9, 2v10 & 29v30, 31,32 in the first round.

[Great-Ollie]

When I brought up medals in CL5 qwert you stated that CL5 wasn't CC4. Just because CL5 doesn't have many medals doesn't mean CC4 shouldn't - they are seperate events.

I could see going to less games for round of 32 maybe (I'd hate to be rank 16 and 17 and have 21 games decide if you get a chance to go further in the event) but full wars (and medals) should be the rest of the way. But I like having a long event like this. That's part of the draw

Totally agree with icepack on this issue. Many of the top clans will shy away from this event if you have less the 41 game wars to decide the victor. As good as we all like to think that we are, bad drops, dice fail, and hot streaks do occur. I can only speak for myself but i think a 41 game threshold is on the bottom line for what i feel is comfortable to determine the true winner. There will always be upsets but over 41 games the best clan usually wins. Medals for the top 3 finishers is kind of a cool idea. Have no medals until the podium i really like that. Do you think there is any way we could get a new type of medal created for this event just like the Conquer Cup? Have gold, silver, and bronze medals awarded to the winning clans every year. Could add to the excitement? Just an idea to get more excitement involved if the medals were not so easy to obtain. Dako the rest looks good and The Pack is looking forward to the event.

[Vid_FISO]

Game 12172270

this is just small example why trench needs round limit

Why are games that take a couple of months to play such a problem? My longest on trench was a Feudal Epic quads, took 40 rounds and 2 months, good game to play and a very enjoyable win.

Given that you've "only" played 50 trench games, do you not think that faced with an identical map and settings that your experience would lead you to play differently to some degree and possibly win quicker (or lose) as a result?

[Bruceswar]

Game 12172270

this is just small example why trench needs round limit

Why are games that take a couple of months to play such a problem? My longest on trench was a Feudal Epic quads, took 40 rounds and 2 months, good game to play and a very enjoyable win.

Given that you've "only" played 50 trench games, do you not think that faced with an identical map and settings that your experience would lead you to play differently to some degree and possibly win quicker (or lose) as a result?

Because you need to keep on time with an event like this. We do not need games slowing down the whole event.

Also I agree with 100% with Great Ollie. 41 games at least or nothing. BTW all of you who are talking about breaks, etc etc. KORT should be the first clan if any looking for a break, but we plan to keep right on rolling. The overlap is usually not as bad as it seems. Clans just need to keep on target so we can get to the dates needed. And yes while this event has been great for the 1st 3 years the medals that come from it are great also. If only the winner got a medal then KORT would be the only one to get one from this event. That is not fair to the countless other people and clans who put tons of work into beating clan X in a war. Why Change what is a good format? When Chuuuck originally posted the first format it was a great idea. Do not try to make the cup something it is not. The play in round used to be 21 games and maybe it could go back to that again, but past that no need to drop any game numbers.

[IcePack]

I would support any play ins being 21.

[Vid_FISO]

Game 12172270

this is just small example why trench needs round limit

Why are games that take a couple of months to play such a problem?

Because you need to keep on time with an event like this. We do not need games slowing down the whole event.

Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

[Qwert]

When I brought up medals in CL5 qwert you stated that CL5 wasn't CC4. Just because CL5 doesn't have many medals doesn't mean CC4 shouldn't - they are seperate events.

I could see going to less games for round of 32 maybe (I'd hate to be rank 16 and 17 and have 21 games decide if you get a chance to go further in the event) but full wars (and medals) should be the rest of the way. But I like having a long event like this. That's part of the draw

Totally agree with icepack on this issue. Many of the top clans will shy away from this event if you have less the 41 game wars to decide the victor. As good as we all like to think that we are, bad drops, dice fail, and hot streaks do occur. I can only speak for myself but i think a 41 game threshold is on the bottom line for what i feel is comfortable to determine the true winner. There will always be upsets but over 41 games the best clan usually wins. Medals for the top 3 finishers is kind of a cool idea. Have no medals until the podium i really like that. Do you think there is any way we could get a new type of medal created for this event just like the Conquer Cup? Have gold, silver, and bronze medals awarded to the winning clans every year. Could add to the excitement? Just an idea to get more excitement involved if the medals were not so easy to obtain. Dako the rest looks good and The Pack is looking forward to the event.

icepack ,its only mine sugestion,,its not meant that dako will apply any of these.
And for seeding,, well dako could give bue in two stage:
round 1 teams from 9th to ???
round 2 teams from round 1 plus teams from 5 to 8 place
round 3 teams from round 2 plus teams from 1 to 4th place
round 4 teams from round 3
round 5 teams from round 4
-----------------------------------------
for seeding in round 1 he could split teams in two pots (first pot from 9th to 22 place and second pot from 23 to what last number), and then he can do random draws, so that you dont know who play agains who.(like we do draw in CL5)
These will give more chance to low ranked teams to fight for medals(if you stay in 41 war chalenge)
Also these seeding procedure,you can apply for all rounds, so you never know who will play with who, and will introduce element of supprise.
note: these its only sugestion

[Crazyirishman]

I'm in favor of both nuke spoils and trench. There are certain people in our clan who like to play trench on certain maps and I'd as a leader would like to try and incorporate the settings they enjoy playing into competitive games. the. Just put a 20 or 30 round cap on the game and all should be good. There are team games that exceed the 20 rounds threshold under normal circumstances in clan wars anyways, so and usually within 20 or 30 rounds in a trench game the winner has already been decided and the cap would just end it quicker.

[benga]

LOL at trench and new tactics, if you don't think ahead now w/o trebch, you really think trench will give you advantage???

in CC3 we waited 3 months to start war vs KORT, we don't this thing to repeat ever again

and certainly we don't want to be held hostage cause you enjoy endless and pointless games

trench with limit and it's all fine

[Dako]

Great input so far from everyone, thank you.

I will make a list of suggestions and answer all of them tomorrow.

Stay tuned and continue to suggest/discuss. That helps me a lot.

[skillfusniper33]

Why go 1v32, 2v31 ..... ?

Free medals for the top clans and a waste of time for the weakest? Competition for those in the middle in the first round but at least half of the match ups are going to be effectively walk-overs?

I don't believe anyone's going to address this point unless you propose a suggestion. Also, you're assuming the lower-ranked clan will lose every time in round 1. The underdog stands to move up in the rankings should they win (and three underdogs won in the first round of CC3).

Plenty of sports out there with cup competitions and I'd presume a lot of experienced TOs in here that have run tourneys with a lot of different KO formats.

But for a "fairer" suggestion taken from tennis. seed the top 8 (working on 32 entries) in the same way for a fixed bracket so that they are the only ones with a fixed starting position in the bracket, other 24 positions are a random draw. Could possibly still give 1v32, 2v31 or 1v9, 2v10 & 29v30, 31,32 in the first round.

I like this a lot. It could give a real twist to the round 1 games specifically. It would also allow some of the newer clans to get a chance at a evenly matched clan. We would also have the chance of getting some really fun and tough battles in the first round instead of just the "close" ranked ones.

If we really wanted to speed the first round up we could do it with games to 21, but have the option for the 2 clans to continue the war to 41 to qualify for a medal. Although I would think we could increase that number to 31. I am not in love with the idea of having such a small war since things can go down hill fast with a few games and lead to a clan being extremely far behind early.

[freakns]

Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

i just have to answer to this...
first of all, yes, i for one am waiting for new clan games, dont play other ones(atm i have one "meaningless game", one tournament game(the only tournament im in), and 4-5 clan games. when there is no clan events, my number of active games is between 1 and 3 games...). thats the first thing. second is about me being afraid(i dont think im high rank player, because if you know the difference between your troops and opponent troops, you should be able to maintain colonel rank... but im higher ranked then you, so for this occasion alone i will answer it and pretand that im high ranked). you are absolutely right, im not afraid, im terrified about possibility to play trench settings against you or any other high skill low score player. it scares the shit out of me. first of all because i would lose all my precious points(about which i dont care at all), then because it would take me months of training to reach mastering skill you already have, thus id put my clan in danger of losing to yours.
side kick note: this only tournament im in atm is nuclear, trench, manual, random tournament. now, you can see from my medal count im not that big on any of those(neither is any of my teammates), so presumably, i dont have any skills to compete on tournament like that. on that tournament we already beat TOFU, we are about to beat PACK, and the rest was no challenge at all!!! it was ridiculously easy! we are 5-0, (even though we played one extra round because team we beat dropped out, so we should be 6-0), and about to beat PACK which will put us on 6-0... if we somehow lose, that will put PACK, truly high ranked clan, on 6-0... you on other hand are 3-2 in that same tournament, despite immense amount of skill you posses.

seriously, take a cup of milk, and go back to bed... let the adults talk.

[Vid_FISO]

Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

i just have to answer to this...
first of all, yes, i for one am waiting for new clan games, dont play other ones(atm i have one "meaningless game", one tournament game(the only tournament im in), and 4-5 clan games. when there is no clan events, my number of active games is between 1 and 3 games...). thats the first thing. second is about me being afraid(i dont think im high rank player, because if you know the difference between your troops and opponent troops, you should be able to maintain colonel rank... but im higher ranked then you, so for this occasion alone i will answer it and pretand that im high ranked). you are absolutely right, im not afraid, im terrified about possibility to play trench settings against you or any other high skill low score player. it scares the shit out of me. first of all because i would lose all my precious points(about which i dont care at all), then because it would take me months of training to reach mastering skill you already have, thus id put my clan in danger of losing to yours.
side kick note: this only tournament im in atm is nuclear, trench, manual, random tournament. now, you can see from my medal count im not that big on any of those(neither is any of my teammates), so presumably, i dont have any skills to compete on tournament like that. on that tournament we already beat TOFU, we are about to beat PACK, and the rest was no challenge at all!!! it was ridiculously easy! we are 5-0, (even though we played one extra round because team we beat dropped out, so we should be 6-0), and about to beat PACK which will put us on 6-0... if we somehow lose, that will put PACK, truly high ranked clan, on 6-0... you on other hand are 3-2 in that same tournament, despite immense amount of skill you posses.

seriously, take a cup of milk, and go back to bed... let the adults talk.

+3500 in team games, -1100 in 1v1, I can see why you want to concentrate on team games

[Bruceswar]

Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

i just have to answer to this...
first of all, yes, i for one am waiting for new clan games, dont play other ones(atm i have one "meaningless game", one tournament game(the only tournament im in), and 4-5 clan games. when there is no clan events, my number of active games is between 1 and 3 games...). thats the first thing. second is about me being afraid(i dont think im high rank player, because if you know the difference between your troops and opponent troops, you should be able to maintain colonel rank... but im higher ranked then you, so for this occasion alone i will answer it and pretand that im high ranked). you are absolutely right, im not afraid, im terrified about possibility to play trench settings against you or any other high skill low score player. it scares the shit out of me. first of all because i would lose all my precious points(about which i dont care at all), then because it would take me months of training to reach mastering skill you already have, thus id put my clan in danger of losing to yours.
side kick note: this only tournament im in atm is nuclear, trench, manual, random tournament. now, you can see from my medal count im not that big on any of those(neither is any of my teammates), so presumably, i dont have any skills to compete on tournament like that. on that tournament we already beat TOFU, we are about to beat PACK, and the rest was no challenge at all!!! it was ridiculously easy! we are 5-0, (even though we played one extra round because team we beat dropped out, so we should be 6-0), and about to beat PACK which will put us on 6-0... if we somehow lose, that will put PACK, truly high ranked clan, on 6-0... you on other hand are 3-2 in that same tournament, despite immense amount of skill you posses.

seriously, take a cup of milk, and go back to bed... let the adults talk.

+3500 in team games, -1100 in 1v1, I can see why you want to concentrate on team games

I sure as hell hope you realize that if you are a high rank it is really hard to have a positive score in 1 vs 1 games. Sometimes you have to win 6 of 7 games just to break even. Getting back on topic. Why is this even being discussed? Who has ever complained about the format of the cup? People know what it is when they sign up.

[Vid_FISO]

I sure as hell hope you realize that if you are a high rank it is really hard to have a positive score in 1 vs 1 games. Sometimes you have to win 6 of 7 games just to break even. Getting back on topic. Why is this even being discussed? Who has ever complained about the format of the cup? People know what it is when they sign up.

Yep, but as freakns took a post of mine personally and decided to reply personally to me in a condescending manner I believe I should have the right to chuck something as pointless back at him.

As this thread is to discuss the format of the cup so therefore it's not yet been decided as to what anyone would be signing up for, surely it is a simple exchange of ideas/ viewpoints up to the point at which decisions are made?

[jghost7]

There should be no round limits incorporated into the cup.

[Bruceswar]

I sure as hell hope you realize that if you are a high rank it is really hard to have a positive score in 1 vs 1 games. Sometimes you have to win 6 of 7 games just to break even. Getting back on topic. Why is this even being discussed? Who has ever complained about the format of the cup? People know what it is when they sign up.

Yep, but as freakns took a post of mine personally and decided to reply personally to me in a condescending manner I believe I should have the right to chuck something as pointless back at him.

As this thread is to discuss the format of the cup so therefore it's not yet been decided as to what anyone would be signing up for, surely it is a simple exchange of ideas/ viewpoints up to the point at which decisions are made?

Why change what people like? Everybody wanted to see who was the best clan. This is what came out of that. The 1st cup was some serious fun and some upsets happened. Cup 2 just proved what one had told us. Now cup 3 is doing a good bit of the same. Top clans are top for a reason, though on any given day most any top clan can beat another top clan. What I am saying is this tournament might not be for all the clans, but every clan has the same chance to win as the next. You do not have to worry about anything anybody else does. Just take care of business in your wars and you will go far.

[ahunda]

Short feedback from me on some issues:

41 games minimum should be maintained for all rounds to minimise the luck factor and keep the Cup as it was: The most prestigious clan event at the side, the toughest competition of skill.

No strong preference on Nukes & Trench from my side. A strong opinion on Round Limits though, and I´ll just quote myself from another older thread:

Some of the most epic & memorable team games are those, that go on for 20+ rounds without one side getting a decisive advantage, going back & forth, come-back after come-back. But all these games are finally decided & come to an end, because between 2 teams stale-mates are impossible. Round Limits would cap off these games and decide a winner based on a couple of armies difference at a random point in the game. Maybe it´s just me, but I find the idea horrible ...

So if time is a concern for those Trench games, and a majority wants to include those settings, I´d much prefer a rule of limiting the use of it to the 1st sets of challenges, instead of putting Round Limits on games.

But for a "fairer" suggestion taken from tennis. seed the top 8 (working on 32 entries) in the same way for a fixed bracket so that they are the only ones with a fixed starting position in the bracket, other 24 positions are a random draw. Could possibly still give 1v32, 2v31 or 1v9, 2v10 & 29v30, 31,32 in the first round.

This sounds ok to me, though I don´t have a strong preference in regards to the seeding system overall.

[freakns]

Why not just flip a virtual coin then, it can be over in seconds that way.

It takes as long as it takes, if that's 2 years then it's 2 years. If everything is delayed for a couple of weeks by one game then it does, really, so what? A load of players with no other games to play in the meantime so they' are actually waiting for the next round before they can play a new game???? A lot of high ranks with no/ few trench games to their name screaming like babies, is it about the time it takes or the fact that they have to learn new tactics and others have a head start on them due to not being precious about how "good" they and others perceive them to be?

i just have to answer to this...
first of all, yes, i for one am waiting for new clan games, dont play other ones(atm i have one "meaningless game", one tournament game(the only tournament im in), and 4-5 clan games. when there is no clan events, my number of active games is between 1 and 3 games...). thats the first thing. second is about me being afraid(i dont think im high rank player, because if you know the difference between your troops and opponent troops, you should be able to maintain colonel rank... but im higher ranked then you, so for this occasion alone i will answer it and pretand that im high ranked). you are absolutely right, im not afraid, im terrified about possibility to play trench settings against you or any other high skill low score player. it scares the shit out of me. first of all because i would lose all my precious points(about which i dont care at all), then because it would take me months of training to reach mastering skill you already have, thus id put my clan in danger of losing to yours.
side kick note: this only tournament im in atm is nuclear, trench, manual, random tournament. now, you can see from my medal count im not that big on any of those(neither is any of my teammates), so presumably, i dont have any skills to compete on tournament like that. on that tournament we already beat TOFU, we are about to beat PACK, and the rest was no challenge at all!!! it was ridiculously easy! we are 5-0, (even though we played one extra round because team we beat dropped out, so we should be 6-0), and about to beat PACK which will put us on 6-0... if we somehow lose, that will put PACK, truly high ranked clan, on 6-0... you on other hand are 3-2 in that same tournament, despite immense amount of skill you posses.

seriously, take a cup of milk, and go back to bed... let the adults talk.

+3500 in team games, -1100 in 1v1, I can see why you want to concentrate on team games

i concentrate on team games because i happen to like them. and i do that for fun alone, i dont hunt for points(you may check, but i believe i havent set up more then 20 free to join team games) thus i play only clan related games(i think i even play more away games, so i dont play those on my favorite maps). i also like to play 6-8 men esc games(im pretty sure i have positive score in those too), but not playing many of those now because i hate when n00b screws up the game(even if he screw up in my favor, i still hate it). finally, what on earth 1 vs 1 have to do with CCup and trench settings?
i mean, this discussion has gone like this:
freak- i dont want to play trench
vid fiso the n00b- high ranked players dont want to play trench because we are superior to them in those games
freak- i already spanked your sorry ass on trench settings, even without any practice on it, i just happen not to like those settings
vid fiso the n00b- you suck at 1 vs 1
freak-
i really struggle to find the meaning in your posts...

[Qwert]

trench its ok, but need to have some round limit and game limit per home games.

[Vid_FISO]

i concentrate on team games because i happen to like them. and i do that for fun alone, i dont hunt for points(you may check, but i believe i havent set up more then 20 free to join team games) thus i play only clan related games(i think i even play more away games, so i dont play those on my favorite maps). i also like to play 6-8 men esc games(im pretty sure i have positive score in those too), but not playing many of those now because i hate when n00b screws up the game(even if he screw up in my favor, i still hate it). finally, what on earth 1 vs 1 have to do with CCup and trench settings?
i mean, this discussion has gone like this:
freak- i dont want to play trench
vid fiso the n00b- high ranked players dont want to play trench because we are superior to them in those games
freak- i already spanked your sorry ass on trench settings, even without any practice on it, i just happen not to like those settings
vid fiso the n00b- you suck at 1 vs 1
freak-
i really struggle to find the meaning in your posts...

You struggle to find meaning as you have no sense of reality, your little conversation there is neither what I said or meant, you have chosen to attribute both words and a viewpoint that I do not possess to me.

We've never played, unless you're a multi???