Too many maps?

[thenobodies80]

Today I was taking a break from work and I decided to read a bit a couple of topics into General Discussion.
At some point I had to read this:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=185973&p4066065#p4066065

Are there less people playing these days or am I somehow being ignored by everyone lol?

my games fill pretty quickly. it must be you.

No it's not me. Just had 30 of them full up today. Don't know why it took so long but have a lot of games now. Feel free to join some if you fancy a game.

it's ok, i was only teasing.

we do have fewer players and we have more maps & more settings. we are spread out thinner than ever before & the foundry continues to make this situation worse.

damn you Foundry

and this:

Ah someone else who thinks the foundry pumps out too many maps. Thank you

So now I'm thinking....are there really too many maps? Is it the time we spend on this site throw away/wasted?

Personally I don't think the foundry is doing something wrong, on the opposite I think that is the site that should start to think to display the maps in a different way and start also to produce dedicated maps.
With dedicated maps I mean a map done just for assassin game, or a map just for terminator games, or speaking in general with a specific target in mind.
In addition start to categorize the maps...and this must be done asap, make the gallery public (it's months we wait )....
And again limit maps to period of time, ranks, number of games, etc etc

And finally I would cut some maps nobody cares/play (really we need maps like crossword? )

However, I'm digressing....so going back to the real questions...too many maps? too many maps produced? yes or no? and why?
Please discuss.

Nobodies

[nolefan5311]

We could probably afford to get rid of some. Operation Drug War comes to mind immediately.

[Oneyed]

yes there are to many maps.

graphics of much old ones is far away from new maps. the gameplay of old ones is often (also due to old possibilities in xml?) the same. and I think there are much maps which are not played often or almost never.

some of old maps with interesting theme could be redrawn, maybe rebuilded in gameplay with using xml updates?

but what is doleful is that also much of new maps do not bring something new. yes they have nice graphics, but nothing special in gameplay or theme.

Oneyed

[jsnyder748]

I think the foundry should focus more on themed maps with interesting game play. A lot of the war maps that are very complicated make for good team games and strategy. The simple maps are pretty redundant. Not saying anything you guys do is a waste. Everything you do helps cc, but just some thoughts.

[iamkoolerthanu]

Never get rid of maps. For instance, I enjoy the occasional crossword. Hive's another story But everyone has their preference

I don't think the classic standard gameplay maps should ever stop, everyone has their tastes, but I agree with Oneyed, there needs to be more special gameplay maps made as well

There are definitely some but the more the merrier

[Dukasaur]

I wouldn't get rid of any maps. For every person that hates a particular map, there is another person who loves it. The immense variety is one of CC's selling points.

Sometimes it does get frustrating, when maps come out of the foundry faster than one can learn to play them. But that's a small price to pay for the immense variety we enjoy.

[greenoaks]

my comment was about fragmentation.

the more maps the foundry produces the slower our games will take to fill.

[ender516]

my comment was about fragmentation.

the more maps the foundry produces the slower our games will take to fill.

Do you have trouble filling games on old maps or new ones?

[ViperOverLord]

Not all maps are created equal. But there's no such thing as too many maps. Too many maps is the inevitable destination of elitists.

[Seamus76]

my comment was about fragmentation.

the more maps the foundry produces the slower our games will take to fill.

I'm not sure this is a completely fair or more importantly an accurate statement. In principle yes, the more maps the more the current base is spread across them, but where I don't think I agree is that it's the base, not the maps. More simply put we need more people, and more importantly more people with premium to allow the site to evolve and keep pace with current needs, trends, fads, technology, etc.

How to grow the base is a larger question and problem, but along with Dukasaur it's the maps and the amazing talent (not to mention time and energy volunteered) that makes this site so great. I've seen other sites, and the 30 or so maps are so lame I'm not sure how the 100 or so people stay there.

Two quick ideas...
- Take a page from Disney - Set up a Map Vault, where maps are taken in and out of rotation with a cool pre release contest, teaser, etc. Maybe they go away for a month, maybe two, others maybe six.
- Maybe some maps are only accessible to Premium members, others only to social media followers, etc. Some maybe only to tournaments.

I guess I'm a little sensitive at the moment, probably because I just posted a map withing the last 24 hours that I've volunteered weeks of my time to produce only to have it implied that my time and energy are only hurting the site and keeping people from staying. Not to mention my other two maps, and everyone else's maps and time and energy, etc. etc. etc. Let's focus on the real issue, number of people, not number of maps.

[ender516]

I love the Map Vault idea. Perhaps a key to the Map Vault would be a Premium benefit? Or perhaps there needs to be more gradations to Premium, but that idea is perhaps straying from the topic here too much.

[ManBungalow]

I feel that some maps are passing through the foundry now which wouldn't have done back in the golden age.

Which doesn't really answer the question here, but is still relevant to opinion on the matter.

[koontz1973]

To scrap a map would be bad. Even classic shapes and classic art had their fans and have been asked to be played on again by those who remember. But placing the maps into categories and filing them so players can find maps easily should negate any need for a bin or vault.

A vault does have its cons though. The big difference we have over Disney is that we are thinking of vaulting some bad maps like crossword or Drug wars. Disney vault their classic films. People pay to see these films over and over again, to buy them on the latest format for home viewing. They can do this as the films are in demand. Crossword and Drug war have never had that and never will so this will not work like that.

To place maps on rotation, what ever the map you choose to place on rotation, you will annoy some players. Even crossword has its fans (not many and they need counselling ). So do we intentionally annoy some paying customers just to remove what we may consider a bad map.
What is a bad map. AoR3 has less games being played than drug war.
Drug War 28. Crossword 16. Age Of Realms 3 18
So whatever statistic people use, others can find a better one. Scrapping and vaulting maps seems to be a bad idea. Lastly on this issue, who chooses the maps and what criteria will they use to be put on rotation? As more maps get made, more will have to go into rotation. Soon, these rotated maps will only be played so rarely, you might as well bin them.

I am against the vault idea, but I do like the unlock maps idea of enders. Buy premium and double the maps playable. But this would probably make the current problem of games filling slowly worse.

Before the next one, this little break:

I feel that some maps are passing through the foundry now which wouldn't have done back in the golden age.
Which doesn't really answer the question here, but is still relevant to opinion on the matter.

And the same can be said for every time in the foundry. Maps are made to the standards of the foundry staff and map makers around. Right now, with nobodies, isaiah, ian, nole and RB0, you have a group of guys that know the difference between good and bad gameplay and good and bad graphics.

But I digress. Are too many maps being made. Yes, but what can you do about it. The sites guidelines for making a map are clear. Anybody can do it. But it is not a matter are too many maps being made, but does the community want the maps being made? Without that, no one gets the draft stamp, hence the slow down of draft stamping. And before people complain, 2 guys and a dog do not make a community.

I do not like the idea, but it might be worth thinking of again, limiting the maps being made per map maker.
1 for new people.
2 for experienced map makers (5+ maps)
All other maps stay in the melting pot to be worked upon. Community can still give feedback, maps can still be worked on. But in the drafting room and main foundry, 1 or 2 maps max.
The main foundry would look a lot less cluttered if we removed a lot of the maps and it would stop a lot of waste. This alone would slow down map production.

[Funkyterrance]

In my opinion the problem is not too many maps but too many variations of settings and only complex maps being open. It seems like there are popular maps and there are unpopular maps but it's the settings/complexity that deters people from joining. Freestyle foggy City Mogul or Das Schloss... eh yeah, I think most people will pass on that. Too daunting. When people are just skimming the public games they want something they can just jump into, in other words, an easy to understand map.
New maps are one of the driving forces for me personally to join games since I get bored with a map if I play it too frequently(with some rare exceptions) and I hope you guys don't stop producing. As long as it's quality over quantity in mind I don't think any amount of maps is really an issue.

[macbone]

The more the merrier, I say!

I like playing on new maps. The Papua New Guinea map, for instance, has been a lot of fun to play, and I'm glad the Foundry is working on creating a mix of simpler and more complicated maps.

[Oneyed]

I do not like the idea, but it might be worth thinking of again, limiting the maps being made per map maker.
1 for new people.
2 for experienced map makers (5+ maps)
All other maps stay in the melting pot to be worked upon. Community can still give feedback, maps can still be worked on. But in the drafting room and main foundry, 1 or 2 maps max.
The main foundry would look a lot less cluttered if we removed a lot of the maps and it would stop a lot of waste. This alone would slow down map production.

this is the worst idea here and this idea will solve nothing. the new mapmakers can have better ideas as experienced mapmakers. the new mapmakers could bring new wind...

lets think for what we need maps twice as Europe/Europe with the same theme, with the same gameplay? (and Europe is from graphics view, gameplay view and geographic view totaly out). this is as example...

I do not know if kicking off old maps (poor graphics, poor gameplay, unpopular...) is the best way, but what I know is that the new maps MUST be different as old ones. and this is what is not valid now, much new maps brings nothing new or only a little new from gameplay, theme. so this could be criteria for new maps, not how much map somebody did in past.

Oneyed

[ender516]

The idea of unlocking maps with premium purchase faces the same problem as the vault: who decides which maps are segregated? Perhaps each user could: after an initial honeymoon, a freemium player would be expected to select only a portion of the maps available and would then only be allowed to change that selection after a lengthy period of time (three months?) or by purchasing premium, which would make all maps available (or some larger portion, with several levels available for purchase, ultimately including the full set).

[koontz1973]

I do not like the idea,

this is the worst idea here and this idea will solve nothing. the new mapmakers can have better ideas as experienced mapmakers. the new mapmakers could bring new wind...

Its not the worst idea, but if people are thinking of limiting the maps coming out, then this is an easy way forward. Remember, this is what nobodies asked. Are too many maps being made?
As for new map makers bringing new wind to the foundry, that is true, but it also depends on that new map maker. Do they make friends and help or do they annoy the hell out of others.

[Oneyed]

Its not the worst idea, but if people are thinking of limiting the maps coming out, then this is an easy way forward.

so it is better to have 100 old maps (from which 50 are nothing special) and limiting new nice maps?

Remember, this is what nobodies asked. Are too many maps being made?

I assume the main question is if there is too much maps. also old ones:

And finally I would cut some maps nobody cares/play (really we need maps like crossword? )

As for new map makers bringing new wind to the foundry, that is true, but it also depends on that new map maker. Do they make friends and help or do they annoy the hell out of others.

yes, yes depends on mapmakers. new and old.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

We have what we have. Does not matter if it is 100 or 1000 maps. Some will always be better and played more than others. World 2.1, no where near the best for graphics but voted the best map on the site. Just because a map is old, does not mean it is bad. Classic map itself is really poor graphically, but will probably never be touched for a long time to come. A map may have normal game play, as you say nothing special, but just because we make it, does not mean players will play it. Everyone will play what they like. Look at the results for the map makers awards. Eurasia and Eurasia mini won nearly everything. Both graphically good but the game play is normal. Using your logic of nothing special in game play does not wash or Kings Court 2 and Salams Switch would of won more.
Does the site have room for 500 maps, yes, if 500 can be made and are played. Seamus made the point of finding more players. But out of those 500 maps, a variety needs to be found that suits all types of players. Crossword may be shit in graphics, but a revamp is better than a bin. Same can be said for all old maps.

yes, yes depends on mapmakers. new and old.

True, but the old ones are just old farts.

[IcePack]

Don't get rid of maps.

[jonofperu]

I don't think it can hurt to have more maps. Especially new maps with unique strategy elements.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=181867
But as others have pointed out as long as a map has fans, there's no point in canning it. Part of the attraction/challenge of random games is that you can get stuck on ANY map - out of many different kinds. Of course that's also the downside to random. You can get stuck with a map you really hate.

Maybe there could be a map ranking system - perhaps as simple as identifying the CC favorite maps.
Then you could do several things with the favorites:
1) Make a random map option that applies only to those.
This would work for other kinds of categories - you could chose between Random Map (all maps); Random Map (CC favorites); Random Map (strategy kings); etc.
Or like someone else said, having maps that work only for certain options. Like be able to pick a random 1v1 optimized map.

2) Give freemiums access only to favorite maps

[ManBungalow]

Maybe some revamps?

[chapcrap]

What about this thread: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=168444 ?

[Armandolas]

I dont think any maps should be deleted.
I like to have the option to play many different maps(some of them i still search my first unique kill)
Even Europe/Europa, i might dislike the feel of Europa and others just hate the feel of Europe.
It does not get people away from CC to have many maps, but like someone said earlier, maybe categorize them or organize/show them in a nicer way could be a solution.
So in my opinion, it isnt the maps who need a revamp, but the whole site

About mapmakers/numer of maps being made i think its irrelevant. Like someone said before, the community will decide if the map is good or not.
The only question i have is if the community is that really important for a map to pass(since only a small niche of people represents the other thousands of players)

About graphics i think Kabannelas (or someone as good as him) should be named graphic supervisor.
I gave this name because in my personal opinion he produces the most beautifull graphics in the site. So only aperson like him can decide if a map can have graphic quality or not

To finish i would like to give my suggestion about this all.
Entertainment team and tournaments team should be involved in some actions about maps. "is this map not being played enough?
Lets start this competion"
For example:
-Tournament team 16 player tournament in das schloss where u can only enter if u dont have any unique kill in it.
And this can be fun, as a "noob" in this map know they wont just be tricked by an experienced player in this difficult map.
They will have fun playing it , and learn from it, instead of just being farmed
-Entertainment team choose the "map of the month" and give a prize(GA medal) to the player who played more games in that map that month.
Those might be bad ideas, but the those two fantastic teams (entertainment and tournaments) they know what they do and they will come out with great ideias to incentivate people to do something different.


Cheers