Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

[Gilligan]

Hi Cairnswk,
I know I'm WAY behind the pack here, and maybe the suggestion has already been made, but:
Please consider changing the buggy stop "territories" so that they don't have a spoils "card" attached to them. I have played quite a few Salem's games, especially Nuke, and the spoils play a very minor role (if someone likes it that way, they can play No Spoils) when half of them are buggy stops.

Cannot be done. It's coded into the site where every territory matched to a card.

[koontz1973]

Hi Cairnswk,
I know I'm WAY behind the pack here, and maybe the suggestion has already been made, but:
Please consider changing the buggy stop "territories" so that they don't have a spoils "card" attached to them. I have played quite a few Salem's games, especially Nuke, and the spoils play a very minor role (if someone likes it that way, they can play No Spoils) when half of them are buggy stops.

Cannot be done. All territs come with cards when conquered. It is just one of the things about killer neutrals. But saying that, the only way to stop it would be to make them decay or normal territs and that would change the map in a big way.

[cairnswk]

Hi Cairnswk,
I know I'm WAY behind the pack here, and maybe the suggestion has already been made, but:
Please consider changing the buggy stop "territories" so that they don't have a spoils "card" attached to them. I have played quite a few Salem's games, especially Nuke, and the spoils play a very minor role (if someone likes it that way, they can play No Spoils) when half of them are buggy stops.

Cannot be done. All territs come with cards when conquered. It is just one of the things about killer neutrals. But saying that, the only way to stop it would be to make them decay or normal territs and that would change the map in a big way.

But it still wouldn't stop them from being nuke territories koontz

[Gilligan]

Hi Cairnswk,
I know I'm WAY behind the pack here, and maybe the suggestion has already been made, but:
Please consider changing the buggy stop "territories" so that they don't have a spoils "card" attached to them. I have played quite a few Salem's games, especially Nuke, and the spoils play a very minor role (if someone likes it that way, they can play No Spoils) when half of them are buggy stops.

Cannot be done. All territs come with cards when conquered. It is just one of the things about killer neutrals. But saying that, the only way to stop it would be to make them decay or normal territs and that would change the map in a big way.

But it still wouldn't stop them from being nuke territories koontz

I think he's getting at the fact that a decay would make the nukes more useful because a killer ones to neutral anyway.

[Foreverman]

Sure, conquering a buggy stop should result in a spoils card. But is there a way to make sure none of the cards represent a buggy stop, that they only contain non-buggy-stop cards?

[Nola_Lifer]

Another solution to fix the problem is don't play nukes on this map. Not all special game plays are ideal for every map and vice versa.

[Gilligan]

Sure, conquering a buggy stop should result in a spoils card. But is there a way to make sure none of the cards represent a buggy stop, that they only contain non-buggy-stop cards?

No, not possible.

[cairnswk]

Sure, conquering a buggy stop should result in a spoils card. But is there a way to make sure none of the cards represent a buggy stop, that they only contain non-buggy-stop cards?

Not in the current xml engine, as i beleive it.

[Leehar]

Is it possible to make the Buggy Stops being killer neutrals (revert to 1) a bit more visible rather than in the bottom left corner?

I know it's something me and a coupla others ended up learning the hard way (our poor 4 stack )

[cairnswk]

Is it possible to make the Buggy Stops being killer neutrals (revert to 1) a bit more visible rather than in the bottom left corner?

I know it's something me and a coupla others ended up learning the hard way (our poor 4 stack )

Leehar, i think it's as visible as it's possibly going to get....at 100% opacity.
It does say killer neutral in that corner.
and killer neutrals always revert to neutral no matter how many u have so you would have lost any stack.
I think you simply slipped up, and possibly forgot it, or didn't bother to read that corner.
i can't make it more plain-as-daylight than it already is unless i put it on a big neon sign with flashing lights.

[Gilligan]

i can't make it more plain-as-daylight than it already is unless i put it on a big neon sign with flashing lights.

Can we see how that looks?!

[cairnswk]

i can't make it more plain-as-daylight than it already is unless i put it on a big neon sign with flashing lights.

Can we see how that looks?!

[Leehar]

I was thinking you could do something similar to what you have in Das Schloss where it's bolded and highlighted in red

Its my first time playing the map so I admit it's probably all of the above slip-ups you mentioned, but the reality is I'm probably not the only one to have fallen into that mistake.
If it could be made more clearer all to the good, if not, I guess people can continue learning it the hard way

[cairnswk]

I was thinking you could do something similar to what you have in Das Schloss where it's bolded and highlighted in red

Its my first time playing the map so I admit it's probably all of the above slip-ups you mentioned, but the reality is I'm probably not the only one to have fallen into that mistake.
If it could be made more clearer all to the good, if not, I guess people can continue learning it the hard way

Leehar, i don't consider reading the instructions on the map (which are very clear and have their own specific corner) to be a case of "learning the hard way", since from my experience over these last nearly 6 years (since CCC) most player simply don't bother to read the instructions on the map which we in the foundry go to great length to place there for everyone's benefit, and they certainly don't bother to visist maps while they are in production to highlight some of these so-called anomolies.
And if others have had a similar problem they haven't mentioned them since April when this went to BETA nor before it became quenched and there are now 1776 games on it.
IN fact we specifically changed that section to read:

Roads are impassable
except at Buggy Stop Junctions which (if held) revert to 1 neutral at the start of your turn.

I really don't think it needs changing at all, except for the players to read the instructions before they play a map. Quite simple really.

[Leehar]

There are landowners, accused, accusers, roads, buggy stops, reverends, judges, and meeting houses; it seems feasible while figuring out all those that you'd miss out the revert to neutral as well. And this info is at all corners of the map...
I got the part about buggy-stops being the route throw the roads, but unfortunately didn't read-through it all the way through as I was quickly scanning the map, and so missed the part about reverting to neutral
(which is why I thought making it a bit bold/in contrasting color, could highlight it a bit more clearly)


I was a bit bored, so I took on your challenge of nobody mentioning the issue in the last 6 months and took a brief scan through the chat of the last half-page of games:

2013-01-19 19:59:15 - dollarsnosense: just left 11 on a reset to neutral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12240643

2013-01-16 14:01:27 - mint-murray: watch buggy stops they revert to nuetral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12225386

lost 4 to the neutral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12218408

2013-01-16 23:59:07 - Mad Martigan: What is this neutral player that just wiped out four of my troops?!
2013-01-17 03:40:22 - Asher413: Neutral got me too... and the dice dragged me back in.
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12217041

2013-01-20 18:26:07 - mudfighter [team]: damn, did not see that...
2013-01-20 18:26:15 - mudfighter [team]: about the reset
2013-01-20 18:26:24 - mudfighter [team]: ok, that is the way to learn a map...
2013-01-20 19:12:19 - Leehar [team]: same
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12218405


Again, I completely understand that this is already out of beta, so it's not worth the effort to change it if it's only causing a problem for a slight few, but I just thought it was worth mentioning because even through that scan above, there were quite a few other comments that the map was too complicated so maybe this could have been something to make it a bit easier to avoid falling into a pitfall.

[cairnswk]

There are landowners, accused, accusers, roads, buggy stops, reverends, judges, and meeting houses; it seems feasible while figuring out all those that you'd miss out the revert to neutral as well. And this info is at all corners of the map...
I got the part about buggy-stops being the route throw the roads, but unfortunately didn't read-through it all the way through as I was quickly scanning the map, and so missed the part about reverting to neutral
(which is why I thought making it a bit bold/in contrasting color, could highlight it a bit more clearly)

i too can understand u wanting it bold...but really i beleive the problem is that ( and i am guilty of doing this on many ocassions) we don't read things properly and take it in and let it sink in

I was a bit bored, so I took on your challenge of nobody mentioning the issue in the last 6 months and took a brief scan through the chat of the last half-page of games:

2013-01-19 19:59:15 - dollarsnosense: just left 11 on a reset to neutral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12240643

2013-01-16 14:01:27 - mint-murray: watch buggy stops they revert to nuetral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12225386

lost 4 to the neutral
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12218408

2013-01-16 23:59:07 - Mad Martigan: What is this neutral player that just wiped out four of my troops?!
2013-01-17 03:40:22 - Asher413: Neutral got me too... and the dice dragged me back in.
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12217041

2013-01-20 18:26:07 - mudfighter [team]: damn, did not see that...
2013-01-20 18:26:15 - mudfighter [team]: about the reset
2013-01-20 18:26:24 - mudfighter [team]: ok, that is the way to learn a map...
2013-01-20 19:12:19 - Leehar [team]: same
https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12218405

Appreciate your efforts, but you don't have to convince me that players don't read instructions. sorry.

Again, I completely understand that this is already out of beta, so it's not worth the effort to change it if it's only causing a problem for a slight few, but I just thought it was worth mentioning because even through that scan above, there were quite a few other comments that the map was too complicated so maybe this could have been something to make it a bit easier to avoid falling into a pitfall.

the map is none too complicated...many players these days someply want quick quick quick so they don't have to think or read too much...while others want something where they can strategise, which is where this map is aimed at.
I may consider it at some time in the future if i get a flourish of players in here complaining about similar.

[ender516]

I think this sort of discussion will subside somewhat when (please, not "if") the site gets the map database out in the open, where users can read about maps and find out how difficult they are, and where the pitfalls are, including features like killer neutrals.

[cairnswk]

I think this sort of discussion will subside somewhat when (please, not "if") the site gets the map database out in the open, where users can read about maps and find out how difficult they are, and where the pitfalls are, including features like killer neutrals.

totally agree ender516

[ManBungalow]

One really petty issue here from me today:

Map says "Johnathon Putnam"
XML says "Johnathan Putnam"

[Gilligan]

One really petty issue here from me today:

Map says "Johnathon Putnam"
XML says "Johnathan Putnam"

Never noticed that. I guess when I read "Johnathan" I read it as how I normally see it spelled! Google keeps telling me John, so I can't tell if it's supposed to be an O or an A...

[cairnswk]

One really petty issue here from me today:

Map says "Johnathon Putnam"
XML says "Johnathan Putnam"

Never noticed that. I guess when I read "Johnathan" I read it as how I normally see it spelled! Google keeps telling me John, so I can't tell if it's supposed to be an O or an A...

Thanks for that pickup MB.
I've just examined the original map i took the references from and the correct spelling (my error) is

JONATHAN PUTNAM

I will amend the map, if Gilligan can amend the xml

[cairnswk]

Version 36 Small and Large with update as above.

Click image to enlarge.

[Gilligan]

The XML already says Johnathan. Also I really like that font!

[cairnswk]

The XML already says Johnathan. Also I really like that font!

Ah. new version has new and correct spelling

[nolefan5311]

Is "Dorca Hoar" supposed to be "Dorcas Hoar"?

The changes really do look sharp.