Magyarország [Quenched]

[Oneyed]

And I can also produce a map after map that shows what I am saying is correct.

yours maps only show regions. they not show how were regions split, which part of Árva and Szepes was Czechoslovak and which was Polish. so the maps shows that is correct what you said, but it is not correct what you said.

We are not talking about Polish or Check territories. We are talking about territories that where in the kingdom of Hungary. And for this, I am correct.

yes, these regions were part of Hungarian empire, but they were split. so we talk about what was Polish and what Czechoslovak, because you add Poland as country and bonus to map. and Polish regions were only PART OF ÁRVA AND SZEPES.

this could helps you to understand it: Árva (Orava, Orawa) is cultural and historical region divided between Slovakia and Poland also during Hungarian empire. so there is (was) Slovak Orava and Polish Orawa. during Hungarian empire only Slovak Orava was part of empire under name Árva. after Trianon small part of Árva become to Poland and rest of Árva become to Czechoslovakia. so what you have on map as Poland is only small part of Árva. and this is valid also for Szepes (Spiš, Spisz).

I use map posted by you to show you your mistake. only white areas from Hungarian empire were Polish.

Click image to enlarge.

do you see diference?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

So even with your copy of the map I have shows part of the regions I have as Polish. But to show two territs with the same name (Polish Arva - Check Arva), do you not feel this may lead to confusion for players. You have made the point that these two regions are in Polish hands and therefore the bonus is correct. To make these two territs part of Check, you lose a bonus area (Poland), you increase a bonus area in size. I keep saying to you Oneyed, Game play trumps everything else. What you want may or may not be right, and that all depends on which map you look at and which point of view you take. The map is correct and is staying like it is. It is not going to change just to show it how you want. This is now the end of it. I have (as the map maker) made a decision and it is the same one as when you first posted in this tread about this.

You have made the point about the names in the past and have wanted me to change them to the modern names (Szepes (Spiš, Spisz)). And as before, the names are correct for the time period so again, my map is correct with the correct names.

[Oneyed]

But to show two territs with the same name (Polish Arva - Check Arva), do you not feel this may lead to confusion for players.

I did not say to have two Árva (or Szepes). I just say to move Szepes and Árva, because you have them on wrong place.

You have made the point that these two regions are in Polish hands and therefore the bonus is correct. To make these two territs part of Check, you lose a bonus area (Poland), you increase a bonus area in size.

no, I did not say the regions were in Polish hands. only small part of them were in Polish hands - this is difference. again, I did not say to have these area Czechoslovak. just move them correctly.

I keep saying to you Oneyed, Game play trumps everything else. What you want may or may not be right, and that all depends on which map you look at and which point of view you take. The map is correct and is staying like it is.

yes, and what is changed on gameplay on map which I posted? one Polish region still lies in Lipto, just the second Polish region is moved, but still has only one border.
your map is out of reality.

It is not going to change just to show it how you want. This is now the end of it. I have (as the map maker) made a decision and it is the same one as when you first posted in this tread about this.

it is not just I want it. it is about history and reality. and your evasion on gameplay is out as I explain upper.

you pretty ingore history, geography and culture. and this is example:

(Polish Arva - Check Arva)

it is not Check. it is Czechoslovak (or Czech). you are not able to do research how to spell about what you say...

You have made the point about the names in the past and have wanted me to change them to the modern names (Szepes (Spiš, Spisz)). And as before, the names are correct for the time period so again, my map is correct with the correct names.

what I did? point about names? I just used Hungarian, Polish and Slovak names to show difference. what is modern on them? this is next example of your ignorance - Szepes is Hungarian name, Spiš is Slovak name and Spisz is Polish name. and all are old, no modern.

make your map as you want, but the result shows your ignorance of history and culture of other nations.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

You keep making this point about reality. The two territs connect to the correct regions on the maps. It does not matter if I move them to the left or down or right. The regions are connected to the regions that are on the map. I am also sure that Budapest needs to go 4 pixels to the left and Fuime is far larger than in reality as it is only a city.

Your change is not going to happen.
This is now the end of this and I will not respond to any more posts on this issue.

[Oneyed]

You keep making this point about reality. The two territs connect to the correct regions on the maps. It does not matter if I move them to the left or down or right. The regions are connected to the regions that are on the map. I am also sure that Budapest needs to go 4 pixels to the left and Fuime is far larger than in reality as it is only a city.

it is not about connection. it is about place. where you have Árva was Árva never. and where you have Szepes was Szepes never. and you also did not understand Polish _ Czechoslovak problem about them.

Your change is not going to happen.
This is now the end of this and I will not respond to any more posts on this issue.

you are wrong and it is no matter how big and which colour for font you use. you track up history, geography, culture and you show your ingorance.

Oneyed

[isaiah40]

Okay, I think that will be enough bickering. Gameplay trumps form. In other words gameplay will always trump geographical or historical accuracy. Oneyed, you even said so on your hellinic wars map when you moved a capital to where it wasn't. So please give koontz the same courtesy please. If you want to make a 100% accurate map of the Hungarian Kingdom during this time period, then feel free to make. koontz , you've made your point so just leave it at that please. If this continues then thenobodies80 and I may have to take further action.

[Oneyed]

Okay, I think that will be enough bickering. Gameplay trumps form. In other words gameplay will always trump geographical or historical accuracy.

I posted map with changes which did not change gameplay.

Oneyed, you even said so on your hellinic wars map when you moved a capital to where it wasn't.

here is difference. from geographic view I had it correct. and from historic view: there were no capitals as we know them, just more or less stronger towns. my mistake in explantation. but in koontz map is geography totaly off. and also history.

So please give koontz the same courtesy please.

I gived him nice possibility how to be geograhic and historic accurate and also had gameplay as he has. look at thes maps, I can not see any difference in gameplay.

my map with moved regions due to accuracy.

Click image to enlarge.

koontzs map

Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

[nolefan5311]

Okay, I think that will be enough bickering. Gameplay trumps form. In other words gameplay will always trump geographical or historical accuracy.

I posted map with changes which did not change gameplay.

Oneyed, you even said so on your hellinic wars map when you moved a capital to where it wasn't.

here is difference. from geographic view I had it correct. and from historic view: there were no capitals as we know them, just more or less stronger towns. my mistake in explantation. but in koontz map is geography totaly off. and also history.

So please give koontz the same courtesy please.

I gived him nice possibility how to be geograhic and historic accurate and also had gameplay as he has. look at thes maps, I can not see any difference in gameplay.

my map with moved regions due to accuracy.

Click image to enlarge.

koontzs map

Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

Oneyed, drop it please. If you don't like or agree with how Koontz map is, don't play it. It's as simple as that.

Thanks.

[Oneyed]

Oneyed, drop it please. If you don't like or agree with how Koontz map is, don't play it. It's as simple as that.

Thanks.

you all are members of The Historical Carthorgaphers Society and this is your aim: "Our aim and goal is to add to the community some historically correct maps."

you can see that koontz made some mistakes. and all what you say is stop speak about these mistakes or that I do not play this map?

nobody cares that he track up history and geography? anybody here can do "historic" map and ignore history and geography?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

Thank you guys.

What is next?

[RedBaron0]

Pretty close kiddo.... Couple little things, the mountains on the left side of the map kinda have a floating quality I can't quite put my finger on. The top mountain and the one of the right are best and you should see if you can't inject some of those qualities into the others. The little tiny ones just seem to rounded and reminding me of things I shouldn't mention.

Other than that, gimme the current map with colored numbers to make sure there isn't any color blend issues.

[koontz1973]

Here you go RB0. Enlarged the glow around the offending mountains and placed some trees on them to ground them some more. As for implying they look like what they do, that is either your dirty mind that needs washed out or erosion. Either one but take your pick.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[thenobodies80]

After some researches, I can say that both maps are NOT accurate.
For this reason, and specially becuase this is NOT a national archive of cartography nor something on that line, I leave the freedom to the author of the map to use the image he likes more.
I will push for a different decision in the moment in which the suggestion has a REAL relevance from a playing perspective or if someone can give me (privately) a real, objective and precise motivation of this request.

Everyone can see wrong things on maps of their country (see italy for example that is everything except italy), but here we made maps to play not to for other reasons. We decided in this way also in past (i can recall the macedonia map name issue) and we go on this route also now.

Please always think about what we do here!

koontz, use the version you prefer more, if someone will make again a mess for this NON issue, let me know and I will stop it in a second.

I don't want to hear about this thing again or about child game like you don't do that so I don't do this.... please, act like adult people.

End of this discussion.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[koontz1973]

Thank you nobodies.

Lets keep the images I have now please and can we move on.

[Oneyed]

After some researches, I can say that both maps are NOT accurate.

I only respond on this here, because it looks that I do not know about what I talk.

I did one mistake - I did not changed region names. but map edited by me is accurate as is possible while I accept the rest of map.

Oneyed

[thenobodies80]

the point is that nobody cares. what you're saying looks more a politcal request for historic reasons that something that willl affect the games on the map.
Look at the thread oneyed, really...it's just you.

I think you missed what we do here. Stop here and move on, you can live also with those regions swapped...no?

[Oneyed]

I can not see any answer here, I have no answer from you via PM, so I replay here.

you can live also with those regions swapped...no?

yes, I can. but with what I can not live is when somebody do dumb-ass from me even when I have right. only because he has any assignment?

I think you missed what we do here.

realy? fancy maps, real maps, historic maps. maps for play - what does not mean that any historic map must be ahistoric...

the point is that nobody cares.

what is doleful. even if you have here group with so epideictic name as The Historic Cartographers Society...

Look at the thread oneyed, really...it's just you.

no. you can look at the thread and find debate about accuracy of names. names could have more "freedom" as geography because each nation use another ones or each time period has another one. so if accurate names are so important why not geography, history?

After some researches, I can say that both maps are NOT accurate.

in PM you also wrote me that you spoke with any experts. you did not give me any reason why my edit is not accurate. you just used your assignment to make decision that my edit is not accurate...

look at maps below:

This is the image I worked from. It is the two right at the top centre that I have called Trencsen and Arva which went to Poland. From a historical point of view, they may not of been significant, but for a game play side of things, they need to be kept for bonus balance.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

you can see that what I drawn by white is accurate when you compare it with map posted by koontz. so this is not "my view"...
btw, koontz I am realy shocked that you posted map from which you worked and you still can not see and understand your error.

next maps which show reality. this is research, nobodies.

polish Árva

Click image to enlarge.

polish Szepes

Click image to enlarge.

I will push for a different decision in the moment in which the suggestion has a REAL relevance from a playing perspective or if someone can give me (privately) a real, objective and precise motivation of this request.

I gave you geographic, historic relevance.

as you can see you are not right. koontz made error and you "consecrate" it. I made edits which are accurate and what you did: just used yout assignment for censorship and used demagogy of "any research and any experts", so it looks that I have not truth and I do not know about what I speak (from geographic, historic view).

if you as Foundry foreman would be impartial you could tell truth and not to make dumb-ass from me. something like this will realy stop me: yes koontz did map wrong, but it is not important for gameply. your edits helped to accuracy, but it is on koontz if he will use them.

Oneyed

[nolefan5311]

Oneyed,

I really don't want to see something like this affect you so much that you stop making maps. Is this something you won't be able to get over and allow you to continue to work on your own maps?

[isaiah40]

[LOCKED] for the time being.

[thenobodies80]

Ok, now I'm tired of this, really....Oneyed stop now, this is the last warning.

On the map there are many other things that don't match with reality. (e.g. Vezprem)

THIS IS the point and this is what the people I asked said to me. I do not have to say you what people exactly said to me, who said this? you? and who are you?
You can't like this but you need to live with this.

You continue to annoy people with those two regions just because you have a personal/politic reason to do that.

I do not see reason to not allow the map koontz posted as it is apart you and your reasoning about which I've already given an answer above. Stop doing the crying baby, we heard your point, we don't agree. Move on and stop now to annoy us all.

The map is good as it is. As said end of this discussion.

Any other discussion on this is being annoying (and be annoying is against the guidelines), if you don't like koontz map, feel free to draw your one.

Please stop now, in which way I need to say this to you?

I unlock the topic just because I don't want koontz can't continue to work on his map, if you don't like the map oneyed, don't play it, don't post here and find something else to do, draw your map, do what you want...but do not post here again about that thing or I will kick your ass.....this is clear?

[Oneyed]

I will kick your ass.....this is clear?

koontz if it is possible could you at least change some names of regions?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

Yes, post changes you want and I will look at them.

[Oneyed]

I was three days on hollydays and have time to clear my head from this. this is my last post here and only because I did not attack anbody and nobody will threaten to me.

On the map there are many other things that don't match with reality. (e.g. Vezprem)

THIS IS the point and this is what the people I asked said to me.

this is off debate. the debate was about Árva and Szepes...


[ Mod Edit : OFF TOPIC contents ]

[koontz1973]

Anything else?

[lostatlimbo]

This looks really good. Your graphics have improved greatly since your first efforts.