North Carolina: No Gays allowed

[Night Strike]

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

[Woodruff]

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

So the Bible was written in such a way that you shouldn't care what Jesus said? That seems like an odd position to take.

And if you believe that parts of the Bible weren't written to help in keeping power, you should do some objective research.

[Night Strike]

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

So the Bible was written in such a way that you shouldn't care what Jesus said? That seems like an odd position to take.

And if you believe that parts of the Bible weren't written to help in keeping power, you should do some objective research.

No, the Bible was not written to keep certain people in power. What Jesus stated was the guide for everything else included in the New Testament. If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

[nagerous]

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

So the Bible was written in such a way that you shouldn't care what Jesus said? That seems like an odd position to take.

And if you believe that parts of the Bible weren't written to help in keeping power, you should do some objective research.

No, the Bible was not written to keep certain people in power. What Jesus stated was the guide for everything else included in the New Testament. If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

What about these passages?

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

"Chastise your son, for in this there is hope, but do not desire his death. The man of violent temper pays the penalty; even if you rescue him, you will have to do it again." (Proverbs 19:18-19 NAB)

Or this?

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

This is cool?

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

[GreecePwns]

If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

What are the Apocrypha then?

[Night Strike]

If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

What are the Apocrypha then?

Not the Word of God (hence why I'm not Catholic).

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

So the Bible was written in such a way that you shouldn't care what Jesus said? That seems like an odd position to take.

And if you believe that parts of the Bible weren't written to help in keeping power, you should do some objective research.

No, the Bible was not written to keep certain people in power. What Jesus stated was the guide for everything else included in the New Testament. If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

What about these passages?

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

"Chastise your son, for in this there is hope, but do not desire his death. The man of violent temper pays the penalty; even if you rescue him, you will have to do it again." (Proverbs 19:18-19 NAB)

Or this?

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

This is cool?

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

I have never studied the NAB translation, but since my quick wiki-lookup showed that it is a Catholic translation, it probably has the same general issues I have with the Catholic church. But I will take a quick go-through your passages:

The first two from proverbs are talking about discipline. By including these, are you implying that children should not be disciplined? These verses are guides as to how to discipline: do so because discipline shows that you love the child, but do not discipline out of anger. The Isaiah passage probably has to do with a specific situation, but since I don't know the full context, I can't adequately interpret it. The Exodus part dealt with how slaves were treated. Slaves were permitted then, mostly out of repayments of debt or from conquering other nations.

[Woodruff]

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

That is not how the Bible was written.

So the Bible was written in such a way that you shouldn't care what Jesus said? That seems like an odd position to take.

And if you believe that parts of the Bible weren't written to help in keeping power, you should do some objective research.

No, the Bible was not written to keep certain people in power. What Jesus stated was the guide for everything else included in the New Testament. If something was contrary to God, it would not have been in the Bible. The entire Bible is God's Word to His people, so you can't just cut out portions of it. All of it is relevant and included by God for a specific reason.

But you guys "cut out" the entire Old Testament. How is that reasonable, given your statements here?

[Woodruff]

The Isaiah passage probably has to do with a specific situation, but since I don't know the full context, I can't adequately interpret it. The Exodus part dealt with how slaves were treated. Slaves were permitted then, mostly out of repayments of debt or from conquering other nations.

So you agree that God is cool with slavery then, because it's in the Bible and God agrees with everything in the Bible. Right?

Or is this one of those Old Testament things that don't count anymore because God is fickle, that I mentioned last post?

[Night Strike]

The entire Old Testament is not thrown out by the New Testament. Christ came as the atonement for the legalistic fulfillment of the OT law. We are to follow Christ for our atonement instead of all the ritual atonement processes they previously had to go through. God is not "cool with" a lot of the things that happened in the Bible, but He allowed it to take place. And he taught that those who were slaves or were otherwise subservient to someone to respect those who were in charge of them. However, he also taught that masters were required to be kind and appreciated to those who were serving them, otherwise they would be unfit to be in charge. And God is definitely not fickle. The people who follow him are, which is why there were so many problems for the Israelites and others.

[comic boy]

Honestly I simply cant comprehend how anybody can be so literal and at the same time so dense.
Night Strike will have us believe that the bible is the literal word of God, except for those parts that are a bit catholic for his taste, never mind that the whole thing was compiled and edited by the Holy Roman church.
You would think that God would have been a bit more careful with his precious message , fancy entrusting it to a bunch of Catholics , perhaps he was just having a bit of a laugh , all that heretic burning was quite jolly after all......

[GreecePwns]

Who decides whether those books are the word of god or not? What gives them the power to decide it over anyone else? Who decides which books or parts of books are good enough for the bible? Why in the order they were placed? Who decided that?

Humans, not god. This supposed word of god is merely the word of humans, compiled and edited in order to gain followers and therefore power.

Do you disagree? Well why should your worldview be allowed to impose its morality on others? Why should mine? They shouldn't, no matter what people say about democracy or popular opinion or anything.

[Woodruff]

The entire Old Testament is not thrown out by the New Testament. Christ came as the atonement for the legalistic fulfillment of the OT law. We are to follow Christ for our atonement instead of all the ritual atonement processes they previously had to go through.

I keep hearing about all the bad stuff in the OT no longer applies though. So is this another case of "if it makes Christianity look bad, then we'll say it doesn't apply any more"?

God is not "cool with" a lot of the things that happened in the Bible, but He allowed it to take place.

I find it odd that you equate "allowed it to take place" with "directed that it should happen".

And he taught that those who were slaves or were otherwise subservient to someone to respect those who were in charge of them. However, he also taught that masters were required to be kind and appreciated to those who were serving them, otherwise they would be unfit to be in charge.

Which equates to him being ok with slavery, obviously.

And God is definitely not fickle. The people who follow him are, which is why there were so many problems for the Israelites and others.

And the people who wrote the Bible, apparently.

[Phatscotty]

What a joke this thread is. No gays allowed in North Carolina? That is totally a lie. Gays are just as welcome in NC as anywhere else in America. You make it sound like North Carolina stones gay people or something.

If you want to complain about where there are no gays allowed, like....places where homosexuality is punishable by death.....why don't you put your troll skills to use against places that literally do not allow gay people? There are places around the world where people are sitting in prison, just for being born gay. There are plenty of places around the world where governments put gay people on trial and execute gay people, just for being born gay and through no fault of their own. Why in thee blue hell would you lie about North Carolina like this?

How dishonest...

[Night Strike]

GreecPwns and Woodruff, you two need to take classes on Biblical Interpretations and Biblical History. I don't have all the answers for you and it's obviously a waste of time for me to try because you'll continue to hate on Christianity anyway. I am not an expert on the Bible, but I do know that it is the Truth. Christianity has lasted through endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments precisely because it is the Truth. The fact that you and many others will endlessly hate Christianity will not destroy it. If you choose not to believe in it, that is your choice to make. God does not force people to follow Him, but He does win in the end. Those who choose to follow HIm will have eternal life and those who do not will spend an eternity separated from God. The Bible is God's Word to His people and all who wish to become His followers, and will survive no matter how much hate you try to throw on it.

[Woodruff]

GreecPwns and Woodruff, you two need to take classes on Biblical Interpretations and Biblical History. I don't have all the answers for you and it's obviously a waste of time for me to try because you'll continue to hate on Christianity anyway.

I truly don't hate on Christianity at all. I can't speak for GreecePwns, but I don't believe he does either...at least I haven't gotten that impression. There are some in this fora who do, but I am not one of them. In fact, I even started a thread about something I saw that I really liked about Christianity (well, it was about religion, but I'm pretty sure the guy was a Christian). I just hate hypocricy, and I see that far too often from Christians...THAT is what I "hate on".

I am not an expert on the Bible, but I do know that it is the Truth.

You BELIEVE it is the truth. You do not KNOW it is the truth any more than I KNOW it is not the truth.

Christianity has lasted through endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments precisely because it is the Truth.

And the fact that it's been in power. That's helped a lot. I mean, really...a LOT of religions have done exactly what you claim, and they are opposed to one another, so it's not possible for them all to be the complete truth.

The fact that you and many others will endlessly hate Christianity will not destroy it.

I don't hate Christianity, and I certainly don't want to destroy it. What I want is for it to be "Christ-like", which is what the term Christian means. Then it would be a useful tool, rather than the oppressive one that it is today.

You keep saying I hate Christianity, but Night Strike...you know that there have been times when I have defended you and your positions in these fora. If I hated Christianity as you claim I do, I certainly would not have done that.

[patrickaa317]

I'm trying to find where Jesus made those statements in the Bible. Can you point them out for me? Thanks!

I'm not agreeing with NS on this but just to make you aware Woodruff, the Bible isn't only quotes by Jesus.

Yes, I know. I've read the Bible quite extensively.

NS stated that it says in the Bible, not that Jesus said it. Perhaps you want to take the spin out of your question and ask him for Bible quotes?

There is absolutely no "spin" in my question. None at all. Are Christians supposed to be Christ-like or not? I don't care what the various power-mongers amongst the past Christian leadership have wanted the Bible to say...but what Jesus Christ himself said...that is what is relevant to how a Christian (i.e. Christ-like) should live. How the hell is that "spin"? Does wanting to see the relevancy of Christ's own words turn the Bible into some "leftist propaganda machine" or something? Why do you fear Christ's words as the way you should live your life?

Calm down Wood-man, calm down.

NS said the "Bible states". You replied "Where does Jesus say this?". You are asking NS to answer a question based on something he didn't say.

True enough, and yet there is purpose behind it. I am asking that question because Christians SHOULD be much more concerned about the things that Christ said, rather than the things that those in power put into the Bible in order to keep power.

Yeah and that may be true but it doesn't make your question relevant to NS's original statement. You were asking him to prove something that he didn't outright say. I realize there has been discussion since so I'm going to go read that now.

On a side note, can you show me where Jesus says that Christians should listen more to his word than the rest of the Bible?

[comic boy]

GreecPwns and Woodruff, you two need to take classes on Biblical Interpretations and Biblical History. I don't have all the answers for you and it's obviously a waste of time for me to try because you'll continue to hate on Christianity anyway. I am not an expert on the Bible, but I do know that it is the Truth. Christianity has lasted through endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments precisely because it is the Truth. The fact that you and many others will endlessly hate Christianity will not destroy it. If you choose not to believe in it, that is your choice to make. God does not force people to follow Him, but He does win in the end. Those who choose to follow HIm will have eternal life and those who do not will spend an eternity separated from God. The Bible is God's Word to His people and all who wish to become His followers, and will survive no matter how much hate you try to throw on it.

Its only the literal ' truth ' sometimes though isn't it , inconvenient truths get explained away

[GreecePwns]

I'm not throwing on it. I'm just saying that there are reasons why the entire world isn't governed by one set of moral codes; because there is no one set of absolute moral codes that must be followed. There is no absolute morality, so let's not govern as if the majority religion's morality is absolute.

[patrickaa317]

I'm not throwing on it. I'm just saying that there are reasons why the entire world isn't governed by one set of moral codes; because there is no one set of absolute moral codes that must be followed. There is no absolute morality, so let's not govern as if the majority religion's morality is absolute.

I'd agree with that which is why each state should decide issues that are more important to them (or however a country's process is designed, whether states have a voice in things or if it is decided by the top level). If NC decides not to allow gay marriage, that is there prerogative.

[Bones2484]

Christianity has lasted through endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments precisely because it is the Truth.

So wait... because it's been around a while it's the truth? What about the religions who have been around just as long or longer? I'm sure they find Christianity just as much of a joke as you seem to find theirs. I didn't realize that duration was dependent on "truth".

Hinduism - 4000 to 2500 BCE
Judaism - 2000 BCE
Buddhism - 560 to 490 BCE
Shinto - 500+ BCE
Confucianism - 500 BCE
Taoism - 440 CE
Christianity - 30+ CE
Islam - 622 CE

Seems to me that other major religions have lasted through many more years of "endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments" than Christianity has. Dismiss them all you want, but you all believe you are right and the others are wrong.

[Neoteny]

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens. We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through usage of the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators,your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sitting across the desk from you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled.

We shall raise vast private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you. We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers.

The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence--will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men.

"We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions. We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

"We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks. ]

[Symmetry]

I'm not throwing on it. I'm just saying that there are reasons why the entire world isn't governed by one set of moral codes; because there is no one set of absolute moral codes that must be followed. There is no absolute morality, so let's not govern as if the majority religion's morality is absolute.

I'd agree with that which is why each state should decide issues that are more important to them (or however a country's process is designed, whether states have a voice in things or if it is decided by the top level). If NC decides not to allow gay marriage, that is there prerogative.

And, one would hope, you don't suspend your critical values at that point. After all, it is ok to say that you think the decision was wrong (and in this case, it seems kind of misinformed). Of course they didn't just ban gay marriage- any form of gay partnership seems to have been made illegal.

Putting it gently, you seem to have been conned into thinking this was a vote on gay marriage, as were many NC voters.

[patrickaa317]

I'm not throwing on it. I'm just saying that there are reasons why the entire world isn't governed by one set of moral codes; because there is no one set of absolute moral codes that must be followed. There is no absolute morality, so let's not govern as if the majority religion's morality is absolute.

I'd agree with that which is why each state should decide issues that are more important to them (or however a country's process is designed, whether states have a voice in things or if it is decided by the top level). If NC decides not to allow gay marriage, that is there prerogative.

And, one would hope, you don't suspend your critical values at that point. After all, it is ok to say that you think the decision was wrong (and in this case, it seems kind of misinformed). Of course they didn't just ban gay marriage- any form of gay partnership seems to have been made illegal.

Putting it gently, you seem to have been conned into thinking this was a vote on gay marriage, as were many NC voters.

I don't think the decision was wrong. If some people do think it is wrong, they are free to leave North Carolina. As Greece pointed out, there is no need to have the whole world governed by one set of moral codes, each area should be able to determine what is best for them and their area.

And I wasn't conned into anything, I really don't care whether it was a vote on gay marriage, gay unions, or what color shirts people can wear on Tuesdays. It is a NC prerogative that doesn't impact me. Marriage & unions are not rights guaranteed to anyone therefore whatever a state decides doesn't deny anyone a right.

If you want to talk about misinformed, it may be relevant to bring up the title of the thread as it is misleading stating that gay people are not allowed in NC.

[comic boy]

It seems to me that it is time for a constitutional ammendment in order to safeguard equality for all regardless of their sexuality.

[AAFitz]

GreecPwns and Woodruff, you two need to take classes on Biblical Interpretations and Biblical History. I don't have all the answers for you and it's obviously a waste of time for me to try because you'll continue to hate on Christianity anyway. I am not an expert on the Bible, but I do know that it is the Truth. Christianity has lasted through endless persecution and the rise and fall of many governments precisely because it is the Truth. The fact that you and many others will endlessly hate Christianity will not destroy it. If you choose not to believe in it, that is your choice to make. God does not force people to follow Him, but He does win in the end. Those who choose to follow HIm will have eternal life and those who do not will spend an eternity separated from God. The Bible is God's Word to His people and all who wish to become His followers, and will survive no matter how much hate you try to throw on it.

Suggesting brainwashing classes are necessary when pure logic and reading comprehension are enough to understand the obvious problems with the very nature of assuming the bible is divine, is sweet, and certainly the only way for a person to come to believe such things, but wholly unnecessary, since logic and reading comprehension, and an understanding of human behavior and history are enough to understand the bible for what it is.

I do like your phrase that says, 'God does not force people to follow him, but he does win in the end', as it indicates your understanding of God is that he created a video game of souls in which there are winners and losers. But then, some seem much more comfortable under the blanket of hate than others.

I think its perhaps you that should take some more classes, because your understanding is quite obviously lacking.

Make no mistake, suppressing the rights of an entire group is entirely a hate based action, and fighting against that, is perhaps what the bible teaches above all other lessons.

I also do not think it is hate that anyone is throwing on your bible. I believe the bible throws out plenty of hate. I think everyone else is actually just pointing that out, and you are taking quite a big leap of faith, by ignoring all of it.