Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[Phatscotty]

the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I must play the devils advocate:
The main question is lost: if a strange man, acting suspiciously, started running away for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his purpose for being on private property, circled back around and attacked you, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Zimmerman was justified in defending against his attacker Martin.

1. Martin was on his own private property (as the child of an HOA member)

2. A reasonable person would assume that the reason the strange man was running away from you was because you were running after him. In the absence of an actual crime having been committed, Zimmerman has no legal authority to randomly chase people on the street anymore than I can walk out my front door and start running after the first person I see. There's probably nothing that prevents Zimmerman from doing that, but a rational person will realize that will be construed as an aggressive action by the person he's pursuing.

In the U.S., no one has a legal obligation to identify themselves to anyone except a police officer acting with reasonable suspicion (see: Hiibel vs. Sixth Judicial District of Nevada). You have no obligation to speak to another person if you don't want to; if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

You might need to correct that a bit. I know Aradhaus is basing his opinions on the weight of the 2 involved, but it turns out Trayvon was 6'2 and Zimmerman is 5'5. I'm not sure I would ever consider the 5'5 guy as "bigger", and at that height the more he weighs the more his weight becomes a problem.

[natty dread]

It's looking more and more everyday like it was self defense.

It is?

Or maybe you just desperately want to believe it is to bolster your own rhetoric?

And it turns out more and more everyday, that Trayvon actually was up to no good, on a regular basis.

Yeah, because young black person = drug dealing gang member... case closed!

[Phatscotty]

It's looking more and more everyday like it was self defense.

It is?

Or maybe you just desperately want to believe it is to bolster your own rhetoric?

And it turns out more and more everyday, that Trayvon actually was up to no good, on a regular basis.

Yeah, because young black person = drug dealing gang member... case closed!

You have some seriously messed up assumptions about young black people.

It looks more and more like self defense because the witnesses are speaking out, and almost all of them confirm almost everything Zimmerman said. Your response here is the only rhetoric I see. Calling me a liar, desperate, and assuming all young black people are drug dealing gang members? How can you possibly accuse anyone of rhetoric? You are the second harshest, most negative, and by far the most guilty person here of constant rhetoric. Do you even know what you post? WTF is your problem?

[saxitoxin]

the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I must play the devils advocate:
The main question is lost: if a strange man, acting suspiciously, started running away for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his purpose for being on private property, circled back around and attacked you, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Zimmerman was justified in defending against his attacker Martin.

1. Martin was on his own private property (as the child of an HOA member)

2. A reasonable person would assume that the reason the strange man was running away from you was because you were running after him. In the absence of an actual crime having been committed, Zimmerman has no legal authority to randomly chase people on the street anymore than I can walk out my front door and start running after the first person I see. There's probably nothing that prevents Zimmerman from doing that, but a rational person will realize that will be construed as an aggressive action by the person he's pursuing.

In the U.S., no one has a legal obligation to identify themselves to anyone except a police officer acting with reasonable suspicion (see: Hiibel vs. Sixth Judicial District of Nevada). You have no obligation to speak to another person if you don't want to; if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

You might need to correct that a bit. I know Aradhaus is basing his opinions on the weight of the 2 involved, but it turns out Trayvon was 6'2 and Zimmerman is 5'5. I'm not sure I would ever consider the 5'5 guy as "bigger", and at that height the more he weighs the more his weight becomes a problem.

That makes more sense why Martin was able to overpower Zimmerman then. It's also pretty funny that a 5'5", 250 lbs. guy was aspiring to be a police officer and saw - due to his extreme obesity - that being "captain" of the neighborhood watch would be easier than taking a break from the Ho-Hos and Pop-Tarts.

And it turns out more and more everyday, that Trayvon actually was up to no good, on a regular basis.

It's pretty clear Martin was a delinquent. Still, did Zimmerman have authority to chase and detain people with criminal histories? No, he had not authority to chase and detain anyone at all unless he witnessed a crime taking place, as opposed to having a hunch that a crime might take place at some point in the future.

[bedub1]

if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

This is why I see both sides of it. It's like getting hassled by a rent-a-cop. "Dude, you aren't even a real cop. f*ck off."

But on the other side of it, I'm out protecting my neighbors and neighborhood, and I see a suspicious person I investigate.

A fight breaks out between the two since they are both jackass's instead of civilized people, and one shoots the other in self defense. Both people were in the position to change the results of the confrontation. Martin was within his rights to ignore Zimmerman, but look what it got him.

Lets flip it 180 degrees. If it turned out that Martin was carrying a gun, and Zimmerman was unarmed, and the fight broke out, and as Zimmerman was slamming Martin's head against the curb, Martin pulled his gun and shot Zimmerman, do you think there should be an arrest?

I agree there should/will be no arrest. But I agree Martin's parents will sue Zimmerman in civil court.

[natty dread]

You have some seriously messed up assumptions about young black people.

No I don't, I was using sarcasm to imply that what I said might be your viewpoint. Sorry, I didn't think you'd need these things spelled out for you.

It looks more and more like self defense because the witnesses are speaking out, and almost all of them confirm almost everything Zimmerman said. Your response here is the only rhetoric I see. Calling me a liar, desperate, and assuming all young black people are drug dealing gang members? How can you possibly accuse anyone of rhetoric? You are the second harshest, most negative, and by far the most guilty person here of constant rhetoric. Do you even know what you post? WTF is your problem?

Come on scotty, you're constantly flinging about this rhetoric where white people are the ones who are really being oppressed, and black people are just somehow "crying racism" for no reason at every opportunity...

You twist yourself in knots and come up with convoluted, fanciful stories just to defend a crazy vigilante who murders innocent kids in cold blood.

An innocent, unarmed black kid got murdered and you want to claim it's somehow "self defense" because the black kid may or may not have been in possession of cannabis at some point in the past? Yeah, whatever...

[saxitoxin]

if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

This is why I see both sides of it. It's like getting hassled by a rent-a-cop. "Dude, you aren't even a real cop. f*ck off."

But on the other side of it, I'm out protecting my neighbors and neighborhood, and I see a suspicious person I investigate.

A fight breaks out between the two since they are both jackass's instead of civilized people, and one shoots the other in self defense. Both people were in the position to change the results of the confrontation. Martin was within his rights to ignore Zimmerman, but look what it got him.

A security guard can at least be identified - by his uniform - as someone acting with some color of authority. For all Martin knew, Zimmerman - who looks a little rapey to begin with - was a child molester, a gang banger, whatever, running after him and demanding he tell him where he was going and what he was doing.

If an older, short, fat, creepy looking guy like Zimmerman, wearing street clothes and an ear stud, started following me down the street through a crime-infested neighborhood and then started asking me where I was going and what I was doing - having identified himself in no other way - I'd probably ignore him or run away too. I absolutely would not stop and hand him my driver's license. If I'm not mistaken, school children - what Martin was - are taught not to talk to strangers.

Lets flip it 180 degrees. If it turned out that Martin was carrying a gun, and Zimmerman was unarmed, and the fight broke out, and as Zimmerman was slamming Martin's head against the curb, Martin pulled his gun and shot Zimmerman, do you think there should be an arrest?

I think in that case Martin should be arrested for being a minor in possession of a firearm but nothing else. I also don't think Zimmerman should be arrested, though. I do think he should be publicly humiliated and sued. At least part one of that is happening.

[Phatscotty]

You have some seriously messed up assumptions about young black people.

No I don't, I was using sarcasm to imply that what I said might be your viewpoint. Sorry, I didn't think you'd need these things spelled out for you.

It looks more and more like self defense because the witnesses are speaking out, and almost all of them confirm almost everything Zimmerman said. Your response here is the only rhetoric I see. Calling me a liar, desperate, and assuming all young black people are drug dealing gang members? How can you possibly accuse anyone of rhetoric? You are the second harshest, most negative, and by far the most guilty person here of constant rhetoric. Do you even know what you post? WTF is your problem?

Come on scotty, you're constantly flinging about this rhetoric where white people are the ones who are really being oppressed, and black people are just somehow "crying racism" for no reason at every opportunity...

You twist yourself in knots and come up with convoluted, fanciful stories just to defend a crazy vigilante who murders innocent kids in cold blood.

An innocent, unarmed black kid got murdered and you want to claim it's somehow "self defense" because the black kid may or may not have been in possession of cannabis at some point in the past? Yeah, whatever...

how do you know he was innocent? How is your statement not the epitome of a convoluted fanciful story! Love how you talk...."crazy" "vigilante" "murders" "cold blood" LMAO. There wasn't enough evidence to even charge the guy.

I am never once assumed the kid is guilty because he had pot a few days earlier? You do not even have a talent for making shit up.

[saxitoxin]

how do you know he was innocent?

If he wasn't innocent then, by default, he was guilty. What was the specific crime of which he was guilty (or might have been guilty)?

[Phatscotty]

the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I must play the devils advocate:
The main question is lost: if a strange man, acting suspiciously, started running away for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his purpose for being on private property, circled back around and attacked you, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Zimmerman was justified in defending against his attacker Martin.

1. Martin was on his own private property (as the child of an HOA member)

2. A reasonable person would assume that the reason the strange man was running away from you was because you were running after him. In the absence of an actual crime having been committed, Zimmerman has no legal authority to randomly chase people on the street anymore than I can walk out my front door and start running after the first person I see. There's probably nothing that prevents Zimmerman from doing that, but a rational person will realize that will be construed as an aggressive action by the person he's pursuing.

In the U.S., no one has a legal obligation to identify themselves to anyone except a police officer acting with reasonable suspicion (see: Hiibel vs. Sixth Judicial District of Nevada). You have no obligation to speak to another person if you don't want to; if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

You might need to correct that a bit. I know Aradhaus is basing his opinions on the weight of the 2 involved, but it turns out Trayvon was 6'2 and Zimmerman is 5'5. I'm not sure I would ever consider the 5'5 guy as "bigger", and at that height the more he weighs the more his weight becomes a problem.

That makes more sense why Martin was able to overpower Zimmerman then. It's also pretty funny that a 5'5", 250 lbs. guy was aspiring to be a police officer and saw - due to his extreme obesity - that being "captain" of the neighborhood watch would be easier than taking a break from the Ho-Hos and Pop-Tarts.

And it turns out more and more everyday, that Trayvon actually was up to no good, on a regular basis.

It's pretty clear Martin was a delinquent. Still, did Zimmerman have authority to chase and detain people with criminal histories? No, he had not authority to chase and detain anyone at all unless he witnessed a crime taking place, as opposed to having a hunch that a crime might take place at some point in the future.

Yes, Zimmerman had a thing for donuts
No, Zimmerman did not have the authority to make a citizens arrest, but people can still initiate conversation with each other, and no that does not seem wise in this situation. I have always felt, if this is the case, that Zimmerman went about it all wrong. I suppose one could argue if they really wanted to go that low that if he was puffin on a blunt and how that's a crime, but I wont make it.

I still want to get into what a Watchman is supposed to do (in the other thread) in this situation. I haven't checked it yet but I will

[Phatscotty]

[bedub1]

If an older, short, fat, creepy looking guy like Zimmerman, wearing street clothes and an ear stud, started following me down the street through a crime-infested neighborhood and then started asking me where I was going and what I was doing - having identified himself in no other way - I'd probably ignore him or run away too. I absolutely would not stop and hand him my driver's license. If I'm not mistaken, school children - what Martin was - are taught not to talk to strangers.

Would you circle around and follow the guy back to his car and try to beat him up?

[saxitoxin]

If an older, short, fat, creepy looking guy like Zimmerman, wearing street clothes and an ear stud, started following me down the street through a crime-infested neighborhood and then started asking me where I was going and what I was doing - having identified himself in no other way - I'd probably ignore him or run away too. I absolutely would not stop and hand him my driver's license. If I'm not mistaken, school children - what Martin was - are taught not to talk to strangers.

Would you circle around and follow the guy back to his car and try to beat him up?

If I felt under threat from an old, short, fat, rapey-looking guy who suddenly started chasing me down the street for no articulated reason, I could imagine how a high schooler with no vehicle and a mile or two from the safety of his home would feel the threat were continuing or escalating if the guy - once winded - were returning to his car for reasons I might reasonably presume were to continue the pursuit he had initiated but via vehicle or to retrieve a weapon. There's no requirement that self-defense be a fair fight or abide by the Marquess of Queensberry rules. If Martin felt he was under imminent threat of injury by this rapey looking man who had been chasing him he can punch him in the junk, jump him from behind, whatever it takes to eliminate the threat.

[BigBallinStalin]

Can Zimmerman be questioned by the FBI, or anyone highly skilled in interrogation?

If the Saxi Scenario is a good possibility, then isn't Zimmerman a suspect? I think the local police called it quits early on because it was a very difficult scenario for them to approach.

I thought the FBI could only be involved in crimes that crossed state lines (he writes, while understanding that knowledge comes from fictional television shows).

I'm thinking that a good interrogator could pry the story from Zimmerman (not by torture, but by morally proper interrogation methods). Mr. Criminal Justice and/or Police Academy usually lack these skills.

[Phatscotty]

Police: Trayvon protesters ransack store
North Miami Beach Walgreens incident caught on video

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Tray ... index.html

North Miami Beach police said surveillance video shows dozens of high school students demonstrating in the Trayvon Martin case Friday ransacking a Walgreens store.

The incident occurred during a walkout from North Miami Beach Senior High School in support of Martin, 17, who was fatally shot in Sanford. Protesters have been calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman, 28, who has not been charged because he claimed self-defense in the shooting, according to police.

Minutes after walking out of their school Friday, a large group of students walked through the streets of North Miami Beach. Along the way, they stopped at a Walgreens at 163rd Street and 15th Avenue at about 10:40 a.m.

Surveillance video shows dozens of teenagers running through the store. Police said about 80 to 100 students stormed in, ransacking the shelves, before the school's vice principal ordered everyone outside.

North Miami Beach police said students damaged items worth about $150. Local 10's John Turchin reported some merchandise also was stolen.

Some of the students dropped their IDs on the way out of the store, police said, so investigators have an idea of who was inside.

[Falkomagno]

[saxitoxin]

Police: Trayvon protesters ransack store
North Miami Beach Walgreens incident caught on video

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Tray ... index.html

North Miami Beach police said surveillance video shows dozens of high school students demonstrating in the Trayvon Martin case Friday ransacking a Walgreens store.

The incident occurred during a walkout from North Miami Beach Senior High School in support of Martin, 17, who was fatally shot in Sanford. Protesters have been calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman, 28, who has not been charged because he claimed self-defense in the shooting, according to police.

Minutes after walking out of their school Friday, a large group of students walked through the streets of North Miami Beach. Along the way, they stopped at a Walgreens at 163rd Street and 15th Avenue at about 10:40 a.m.

Surveillance video shows dozens of teenagers running through the store. Police said about 80 to 100 students stormed in, ransacking the shelves, before the school's vice principal ordered everyone outside.

North Miami Beach police said students damaged items worth about $150. Local 10's John Turchin reported some merchandise also was stolen.

Some of the students dropped their IDs on the way out of the store, police said, so investigators have an idea of who was inside.

While interesting, this neither adds to, nor detracts, from any responsibility Zimmerman or Martin may or may not have had in the matter.

[bedub1]

Police: Trayvon protesters ransack store
North Miami Beach Walgreens incident caught on video

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Tray ... index.html

North Miami Beach police said surveillance video shows dozens of high school students demonstrating in the Trayvon Martin case Friday ransacking a Walgreens store.

The incident occurred during a walkout from North Miami Beach Senior High School in support of Martin, 17, who was fatally shot in Sanford. Protesters have been calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman, 28, who has not been charged because he claimed self-defense in the shooting, according to police.

Minutes after walking out of their school Friday, a large group of students walked through the streets of North Miami Beach. Along the way, they stopped at a Walgreens at 163rd Street and 15th Avenue at about 10:40 a.m.

Surveillance video shows dozens of teenagers running through the store. Police said about 80 to 100 students stormed in, ransacking the shelves, before the school's vice principal ordered everyone outside.

North Miami Beach police said students damaged items worth about $150. Local 10's John Turchin reported some merchandise also was stolen.

Some of the students dropped their IDs on the way out of the store, police said, so investigators have an idea of who was inside.

While interesting, this neither adds to, nor detracts, from any responsibility Zimmerman or Martin may or may not have had in the matter.

Agreed. Now what does race have to do with anything?

[Phatscotty]

Police: Trayvon protesters ransack store
North Miami Beach Walgreens incident caught on video

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Tray ... index.html

North Miami Beach police said surveillance video shows dozens of high school students demonstrating in the Trayvon Martin case Friday ransacking a Walgreens store.

The incident occurred during a walkout from North Miami Beach Senior High School in support of Martin, 17, who was fatally shot in Sanford. Protesters have been calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman, 28, who has not been charged because he claimed self-defense in the shooting, according to police.

Minutes after walking out of their school Friday, a large group of students walked through the streets of North Miami Beach. Along the way, they stopped at a Walgreens at 163rd Street and 15th Avenue at about 10:40 a.m.

Surveillance video shows dozens of teenagers running through the store. Police said about 80 to 100 students stormed in, ransacking the shelves, before the school's vice principal ordered everyone outside.

North Miami Beach police said students damaged items worth about $150. Local 10's John Turchin reported some merchandise also was stolen.

Some of the students dropped their IDs on the way out of the store, police said, so investigators have an idea of who was inside.

While interesting, this neither adds to, nor detracts, from any responsibility Zimmerman or Martin may or may not have had in the matter.

Of course it doesn't. But if a few more things like this happen, I will need to subtitle the thread "reaction". No need to get all Natty on me Sax!

btw no my sig does not have anything to do with your affliction for Frank Herbert, just mine.

[Night Strike]

I still don't get why night strike & co. are so adamant that the shooter has to be innocent... Why are you so sure it was "self-defense"?

Is it just because the victim was a black kid in a rich neighbourhood, so he simply had to be "up to no good"?

I don't think I have ever claimed that he was innocent. I've simply claimed that he's not guilty simply because an angry mob trying to start race riots demands that he be guilty. I'm sorry, but this country is made up of laws, not mob rules.

[natty dread]

Now I know where phatscotty gets his facts from...

http://angryblacklady.com/2012/03/26/fa ... neo-nazis/

[natty dread]

Another article that shows clearly where phatscotty's rhetoric is coming from:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/0 ... 1995-2012/

Over the last 48 hours, there has been a sustained effort to smear Trayvon Martin, the 17-year old African-American who was shot dead by George Zimmerman a month ago. Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, “They killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.”

Thus far these attacks have fallen into two categories: false and irrelevant. Much of this leaked information seems intended to play into stereotypes about young African-American males. Here’s what everyone should know:

1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed “like a wannabe gangster.” Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that “everyone that ever stuck up a convenience store” was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said “I’m staying with my parents.” Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]

The final part of the effort to smear Trayvon Martin is to link him and his supporters to irresponsible fringe groups like the New Black Panthers and marginal provocateurs like Louis Farrakhan. Threats by these groups are serious and should be investigated, but they have nothing to do with Martin or his supporters. The leader of the effort to associate Martin with these groups is Matt Drudge. You can see how he is framing the story today here.

Ultimately, whether Martin was a perfect person is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman’s conduct that night was justified. Clearly, there are two different versions of the events that transpired on February 26, the night Trayvon was killed. There are conflicting statements by witnesses and conflicting evidence as to who was the aggressor. Zimmerman has the right to tell his side of the story. But his opportunity to do this will come in a court of law after he is charged and arrested. In the meantime, Zimmerman’s supporters should stop trying to smear the reputation of a dead, 17-year-old boy.

[TheGeneral2112]

I just want to say that I am a permit holder in my state and I carry a SW9VE and I would have shot the fuck out of that ****** too. So take that as you may.

[codeblue1018]

I just want to say that I am a permit holder in my state and I carry a SW9VE and I would have shot the fuck out of that ****** too. So take that as you may.

Classy post. You are the reason why certain persons have zero business possessing a firearm.

[comic boy]

I just want to say that I am a permit holder in my state and I carry a SW9VE and I would have shot the fuck out of that ****** too. So take that as you may.

You are a cedit to humanity , your parents must be very proud .