The desire to win.

[whitestazn88]

As a child of the 20th century, I feel like my desire to win is, on a scale of 1 to 10, at approximately 11. I know that lots of younger folk don't care about winning or losing, because they always get to go to chuck-e-cheese or get a trophy or all that shit.

Do you think it makes us weaker that we don't allow people to truly excel over others? Or does the fair and balanced approach make everyone nicer and more likely to treat others fairly?

I vote for "stop making all these kids pussies and let the winners tease the shit out of losers"

[KoolBak]

Funny to hear your point of view, being more than twice your age and all....lol. Shall I whip out my crusty old redneck opinions (whippersnapper)?

[tkr4lf]

I have to agree with you whitestazn. My step-nephew plays soccer. When I was up there visiting, I went to one of his games to check it out. First off, soccer sucks, so, yeah, there's that. But more to the point, he sucks. And so did his team. But they all got trophies. What the hell is that?

Back when I played pee-wee basketball, it was a big thing to get a trophy. One year we won the conference championship, got our trophies, and we were all truly proud about it. My step-nephew doesn't care about his trophies at all, since they were just given to him.

I think ultimately, this road leads to nothing but trouble. Competition is a good thing, ya know.

[john9blue]

i'd say i have a pretty strong desire to win, and i got "sports participation trophies" as a kid

[Woodruff]

There is a lot of recent research that shows that rewarding minimal or lack of effort/skill actually REDUCES a child's desire to do well. It's actually counter-productive. After all, why should they put in the effort if they're being rewarded anyway?

[pimpdave]

i got "sports participation trophies" as a kid

[ViperOverLord]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

Many of us believe in feel goodery nonsense to the hilt but how many of us really practice it in our own lives?

[narthuro]

I'm a child of the "everyone gets trophies" era. Taking a quick look at the trophies I kept, there's two from a sports camp for I don't know what, there's one for the year the CYO team won one game, the one for the year the flag football team won one game, one for the year the soccer team was winless (I think I see a trend), and two I actually earned.

I think a part of it is the result of people not wanting to make kids feel bad (of course part of it was the trophy industry trying to keep itself alive...) The idea was that if you worked hard, and you gave your best, and had fun, then you were already a winner. Of course, I never worked hard to get better at a sport, and now the idea of "winning" really doesn't interest me.

Don't get me wrong, doing well still interests me, and I'm still extremely competitive when it comes to games, and I pride myself on my academic success, but I don't feel a driving competitive desire to win at life (whatever that means). I can settle for being happy (or satisfied, depression throws a wrench in my plan for happiness) and enjoying myself. It would be great if I win, but if I'm happy at the end, and think I gained something from the experience, it's okay. Is that a bad thing?

Popular opinion is shifting back to the idea of encouraging success, though. No problem with that. Encouraging success is probably better for a society, but there is some importance to be placed in happiness.

Look at the Satisfaction with Life Index. While some of these studies can be dodgy, they provide decent insights. On the top are countries with great standards of living and great health care systems. Bhutan, the country that came up with Gross National Happiness, is at 8. Canada falls in at 10, The United States at 23, the United Kingdom at 41. At the bottom, of course, are Africa and Eastern Europe. But I want you to look at the most telling ones: Japan and South Korea. Both nations that are wealthy, and growing at fantastic rates, but cultures (disclaimer: cultural stereotyping ahead) that encourage a laser-beam focus on success. Their happiness suffers because of it (Japan at 90, South Korea at 102). Just look at the suicide rates there.

I still agree that there's no point in giving losers trophies. Maybe if I didn't get those trophies, I would have wanted to succeed more, and worked hard to be a better ballplayer. But a cultural obsession with winning like we have in the United States (I'm looking at you, Charlie Sheen) really doesn't make that much sense to me. We worry so much about getting ahead in life, conflating success with happiness. We usually are disheartened when we learn that while success helps in fostering happiness, it's certainly not the end-all, and that your attitude toward life is just as important, if not more.

[Woodruff]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

I really don't believe that's true at all. My reasoning for that is because most (I'd like to think "all", but who knows) teachers join that profession because they want to make a difference for kids, and so they're typically more of the "good hearted" type of individual. I'm not trying to say that people who would swat knuckles with a ruler aren't good or anything like that...I just can't think of a phrase that would capture what I'm trying to say better than "good hearted". A "good hearted" individual is far less likely to consider violence of any sort to be a proper method.

Now, I'm not necessarily against this sort of punishment...I did on rare occasions spank my kids if they'd done something that I felt was particularly dangerous and they weren't old enough yet to understand WHY it was as dangerous as it was through talking about it. I don't believe that psychological damage is done by spanking in rare circumstances.

But my view is that it's not MY place as the teacher to discipline someone else's child. That's there job. My job is to educate them, to help them to learn to think for themselves, and hopefully help them to learn why self-discipline is the best course for them rather than acting out in class. But it wouldn't even occur to me to use corporal punishment in the classroom, because that would defeat the purpose of the lesson I'm trying to convey, in my opinion.

I tend to think that most experienced teachers would agree with my sentiment.

Many of us believe in feel goodery nonsense to the hilt but how many of us really practice it in our own lives?

Feel goodery nonsense? I can't speak for anyone else, but I simply try to do what I believe is "the right thing" for the situation.

[Woodruff]

But a cultural obsession with winning like we have in the United States (I'm looking at you, Charlie Sheen) really doesn't make that much sense to me. We worry so much about getting ahead in life, conflating success with happiness. We usually are disheartened when we learn that while success helps in fostering happiness, it's certainly not the end-all, and that your attitude toward life is just as important, if not more.

Sure, I agree. I am personally an ultra-competitive individual. However, that competitiveness is tempered with the recognition that enjoying myself WHILE competing is what really matters. If it's not fun, why am I doing it? As for "success at life"...well, as long as I am happy with my contributions to society and I feel satisfied with my standard of living and personal life, then I am a success.

[ViperOverLord]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

I really don't believe that's true at all. My reasoning for that is because most (I'd like to think "all", but who knows) teachers join that profession because they want to make a difference for kids.....

I'll stop you right there. You are assuming that swatting knuckles would be a form of abuse and not discipline.

[john9blue]

i got "sports participation trophies" as a kid

...really dave?

i also got conference champion trophies for high school varsity tennis, and a good number of tournament champion trophies as well, so your pathetic attempts at degrading my self-esteem are not going to work.

[PLAYER57832]

some good thoughts above, though I was worried when I first saw the thread.

I think the real problem is not honoring winners, it is when you go from "a good soccer team full of good players" to "these are good kids". Its like if you are successful in one skill, suddenly you are somehow a better person. Kids can take losing, not being the best. What they cannot take is being told that they "suck" becuase they are bad at one sport or another or even all of them. (and I don't mean the friendly ragging). It also gets bad when things are not really judged equally, which does happen a lot. This goes 2 ways... I see the parents who insist their child is "not being treated fairly" because little johnny is not put in to play every innning at his favorite spot AND the cases where little johnny really is not being put in to play except the bare minimum, though he actually is a decent player. Both are bad.

Real and honest competition does put one person above another, but if the competition is fair and honest AND if kids are given enough options to find other things at which they can, even if not "excell", at least do a decent job.. then kids do just fine. Pretty well indeed.

If kids are on the school yard, then having a rule "all kids need to get a turn" is reasonable, particularly when its grade school kids. Its called "manners" and "give everyone a chance" (both). BUT, if you are on a competetive team, then there are only so many slots and excluding those who just cannot make it is reasonable as well.

[Woodruff]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

I really don't believe that's true at all. My reasoning for that is because most (I'd like to think "all", but who knows) teachers join that profession because they want to make a difference for kids.....

I'll stop you right there. You are assuming that swatting knuckles would be a form of abuse and not discipline.

REAL discipline doesn't involve violence. So no, I'm not assuming that swatting knuckles is a form of abuse, but I AM stating as fact that swatting knuckles is extremely ineffective as compared to actual discipline. But go ahead and stop me, since the only thing you have to argue against my statements is your own assumptions.

[Aradhus]

No participation trophies in my closet. A participation trophy would've just spurred me on to try even harder to win and avoid the embarrasment of recieving a participation trophy, and they would make mocking the losers an even more satisfying experience. So I rue not having the participation opportunity.

[whitestazn88]

I'm just saying, if you enter some sort of competition or play some kind of game, even among friends, and you don't have the desire to win... well then you're a fucking pussy. SACK UP AMERICA! WE'RE LOSING IN EVERYTHING!

[Haggis_McMutton]

I'm just saying, if you enter some sort of competition or play some kind of game, even among friends, and you don't have the desire to win... well then you're a fucking pussy.

/agree

It annoys me to no end when someone is obviously not even trying to win, probably because they're afraid that even if they tried their hardest they'd still lose and could then no longer hide behind the excuse of "lolz, I was just playing for shits and giggles".

/rage

[ViperOverLord]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

I really don't believe that's true at all. My reasoning for that is because most (I'd like to think "all", but who knows) teachers join that profession because they want to make a difference for kids.....

I'll stop you right there. You are assuming that swatting knuckles would be a form of abuse and not discipline.

REAL discipline doesn't involve violence. So no, I'm not assuming that swatting knuckles is a form of abuse, but I AM stating as fact that swatting knuckles is extremely ineffective as compared to actual discipline. But go ahead and stop me, since the only thing you have to argue against my statements is your own assumptions.

In your opinion, that is violent abuse. Other people feel that it's a stinging reminder to be serious. And you're the one assuming that it's ineffective. I've seen plenty of schools in which such measures would greatly increase effectiveness.

Perhaps you should consider the history of such a tactic. For the majority of American history, that was the common tactic. I'd say that general dumbassery and actual abuse has increased in modern times since we went away from such measures.

[natty dread]

VoL, maybe you should have been swatted at the knuckles more when you were kid, you might have learned how to read better.

[PLAYER57832]

No participation trophies in my closet. A participation trophy would've just spurred me on to try even harder to win and avoid the embarrasment of recieving a participation trophy, and they would make mocking the losers an even more satisfying experience. So I rue not having the participation opportunity.

Participation trophies are appropriate in the Special Olympics, because just going to the competition and participatin IS an acheivement.

Similarly, they are OK for the youngest children who just don't really "get" the idea of competition or who are just so early in the stages of learning that having them really thing about actually winning is just a bit much. We all cheared when the 3 year olds hit the goal.. no matter if it was the wrong one, but by the time they were 7... it changed, as it should.

They are also appropriate at higher levels when just getting into a tournament or competition is itself an achievement.

Otherwise.. they are a waste and truly diminish the value of a real award. As someone noted above, they really insult, because they tend to imply that the person could not do better or at least could not take an honest loss.

[Woodruff]

I believe that a significant percentage of school teachers that start their career believing that swatting kids knuckles with a ruler is barbaric end up seeing the rationale only a few short months or years later.

I really don't believe that's true at all. My reasoning for that is because most (I'd like to think "all", but who knows) teachers join that profession because they want to make a difference for kids.....

I'll stop you right there. You are assuming that swatting knuckles would be a form of abuse and not discipline.

REAL discipline doesn't involve violence. So no, I'm not assuming that swatting knuckles is a form of abuse, but I AM stating as fact that swatting knuckles is extremely ineffective as compared to actual discipline. But go ahead and stop me, since the only thing you have to argue against my statements is your own assumptions.

In your opinion, that is violent abuse.

No, I never said I considered it violent abuse. I never even hinted that I considered it violent abuse. Good Lord.

Other people feel that it's a stinging reminder to be serious. And you're the one assuming that it's ineffective. I've seen plenty of schools in which such measures would greatly increase effectiveness.

If the student respects the teacher, such "stinging reminders" aren't necessary. If such measures "greatly increased effectiveness", then the teacher doesn't have the student's respect already.

Perhaps you should consider the history of such a tactic. For the majority of American history, that was the common tactic. I'd say that general dumbassery and actual abuse has increased in modern times since we went away from such measures.

Actual abuse absolutely has not increased in modern times. I'm not even sure how you could make such a statement.

[rockfist]

I got a "participation trophy" once from my former employers for completing a training program that you were pretty much brain dead if you failed at. I threw it away immediately.

Two years later I later got a "top five percent" salesperson award, which is displayed prominently in my home office. It was a big deal to get that award with as little experience as I had...most people were 10+ year veterans before they won that.

Giving participation trophies is bad IMO.

[natty dread]

Participation trophies are appropriate in the Special Olympics, because just going to the competition and participatin IS an acheivement.

So what you're saying is, disabled people should be treated differently than abled people?

[notyou2]

I was at a party with a bunch of teachers and one told me a story.

Kids are graded and pass every year. They get trophies for losing in sports. They get badges in Scouts for not properly earning them.

This one kid graduated and got a job.

He then got fired because he was useless. He complained to his former teacher that he thought people got rewarded no matter how well they did their job, just like school, sports and organizations such as Boy Scouts.

He got a rude awakening.

Fix the system, competitiveness is healthy and prepares them for the real world.

[BigBallinStalin]

Participation trophies are appropriate in the Special Olympics, because just going to the competition and participatin IS an acheivement.

So what you're saying is, disabled people should be treated differently than abled people?

I say ban the Special Olympics immediately. Let them feel what the REAL WORLD is like. YARRRGGGGGGGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!