Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

[thenobodies80]

Hi Foundry Goers,

I'm posting this topic to start a bit of discussion with you about the special maps. With special maps I mean all the maps that for a reason or another were developed behind the scenes without going through the "normal foundry process". Probably we're the only group that really care about the fact a map is produced without going through the foundry, since everyone else on this site don't care about this. For the common player or forum user maps are fine as long they come and can be played.

The reason of this topic is the little argumentation I had with natty (mate, lately we fight for everything ) on the asia touch up thread. But in reality it's some time I hear about people annoyed by this type of maps. So, apart for that topic, in which it wasn't my intention try to circumvent the foundry process, but just try to the players of this site something better to play than what we have now, what are your thoughts about these special maps?

First of all we should consider some things:

Pro
- Have special/seasonal maps add something fun/special to the site
- Keep them secret add a "surprise" effect
- Given the limited time to develope those maps, work with a smaller group of people is better

Cons
- Mapmakers aren't happy to spend months to develope a map when another can be done in few mins
- Mapmakers feel like there's a different treatment and that the process is not the same for everyone
- It's not possible to contribute or suggest something because there's no public thread

Probably other things can be listed, but i think those are the most discussed points.

Now, Personally I think that the number of maps developed behind the scenes should be reduced to the bone. Obviously I know that mostly all those maps weren't produced without a minimal process. For example the asia map has a dedicated topic in which I posted various versions and a small group of people suggested for changes or other improvements.
I think that sometimes it is usefull to have just a small group of people to look at a map, specially if you have to finish it for a precise deadline.
I bet that if seasonal maps go through the foundry, the mapmaker can have it ready to go only after a year from the start, missing the event complitely.
Probably for you all this is just a way to tell us (CAs) that is the mapmaking process the problem? that is too long and maybe see a map that can circumvent it makes you angry?
Said that I think that all maps, once uploaded should have a public thread, so everyone can go there an dsuggest improvements. In this way also seasonal maps can be better for the next year celebration. Maybe gameplay changes could be a problem to test on a locked map, but I'm going a bit off topic now.
So in general I think that every map should go through the process at some point, but considering the contest and its purpose.

Now moving the discussion on your side, what do you think?

Do you think all maps must go throught the foundry even if it means destroy the surprise effect? or do you think it's fine as it is now? or again, do you think that maps can be developed behind the scenes on special occasions, but there should be a public topic to discuss and improve them anyway?

Please discuss
Nobodies

[DiM]

normally all maps should go through the foundry process.
as it has been pointed out many times before probably just 1% of the people on this site visit the foundry so we can hardly talk about spoiling surprises.

also the map making process is slow but i'm pretty sure that if the CAs give that map a lot of attention they can drive it through the whole thing much much faster.2 weeks, maybe a month tops would be more than enough for a special map to get through the foundry process.

however if secrecy is such a big issue then i think a special group must be created where only the CAs and people that have map making medals can enter and review the map there.

[natty dread]

Well, like Dim said and like I said in the other thread...

Not only do only a small percentage of forum-goers visit the foundry but only a small percentage of CC players visit the forums, so I think it's really disingenious to use the excuse of "keeping the surprise" to let these map be developed outside the foundry process.

We have the foundry process for a reason, it provides the best possible maps for the site (I believe, although some may disagree...) I think it's the best possible system that allows creative members of CC to contribute and develop their skills and innovate new kinds of maps. It allows all members of CC to give input and participate on the process of creating new maps. In other words, I think the system is great - sure it fails sometimes, but no system is perfect.

So why wouldn't this same system be applied to "special" maps? Sure, they may be seasonal and not be playable all the time, but is this any reason to apply lesser standards to them, to deny the CC population the chance to influence them?

I think it's wrong towards CC mapmakers, and it's also wrong towards the CC population, who are both denied the possibility to participate, and both are denied the kind of quality maps they would get if they were made via the foundry process.

Also, who decides who gets to make these seasonal maps? It seems that the only criteria is being in this "inner circle" consisting of entertainment team/cartographers/admin's friends/etc. We have lots of great mapmakers here, why not use their talent for these tasks?

In other words, I think this whole seasonal map racket, the way it is now, is a huge "f*ck you" and slap to the face to all the mapmakers and all the foundry contributors on the site. It's saying to them "you guys have your process which you have to abide by, but we don't have to respect it". It's downplaying and disrespecting all their efforts for improving and contributing to this site.


Anyway, if the secrecy is a concern, then there are compromises that would be better than the current situation. Make an usergroup consisting of mapmakers, CA:s and foundry regulars, who get to see the development of these surprise maps, and participate in them, maybe even contests could be held within it to decide who gets to create a certain surprise map. I'm sure the site can afford that amount of trust to the people who obviously care so much about the site that they're willing to sacrifice their time and effort to contribute to it.

[koontz1973]

Here is my thoughts on all maps like this (seasonal/special maps).

Can be produced behind the scenes as there are not many holidays or events that can support a map of its own, but while it is being played for the first time, a topic should be set up in the foundry so the community can suggest changes which could be implemented. So improvements can be made over a period time.
If a group of map makers come into the mix, it should be near the end of the project to spot mistakes and or help produce a better map. Any sooner and you end up with to many opinions. This goes against the foundry principle I know.
Maps that are made to replace existing maps (revamps), where ever possible should go into the foundry. If a touch up has gone ahead (Asia), a period of Beta should be implemented to allow comments and changes if it can be done.
The idea that a mod or anyone else can make a map as a surprise is silly, and does go against the principles that all map makers have to abide by, but if a map is going to go ahead, bung it into the foundry straight away as soon as it goes live. I am sure all of the map makers and community that want to comment will do so.

Considering we have a Christmas and Easter map, there are not many other holidays celebrated or well known for a map. We already use Halloween Hollows for Halloween so other maps can be used for smaller holidays. The only other holiday/event I can think of that deserves its own map would be the Olympics. This is coming up next year, so either a natty London job for this (changing the background like winter Woodboro) and a great athletics map similar to the world cup map.

[natty dread]

Considering we have a Christmas and Easter map

Which both look horrible.

We already use Halloween Hollows for Halloween

Which looks nice. Can you guess which of them went through the foundry process?

I Rest My Case.

[koontz1973]

Considering we have a Christmas and Easter map

Which both look horrible.

We already use Halloween Hollows for Halloween

Which looks nice. Can you guess which of them went through the foundry process?

I Rest My Case.

And that is why I suggested to put them through the foundry after the fact. If the idea of having a special map is to give a surprise to the players or any other reason, then that should be done, but as soon as the surprise is over, game one on the map has started, then into the foundry it goes.

[natty dread]

And that is why I suggested to put them through the foundry after the fact.

"After the fact" indeed. The development would still be held behind closed doors, and the developer would still be chosen from among the peanut gallery of the entertainment team, not the real mapmakers. What would that solve?

f the idea of having a special map is to give a surprise to the players or any other reason, then that should be done

The entire premise of "surprise" is questionable. Only a minuscule percentage of CC players visits the foundry, you could say every map that goes in beta is a "surprise" to 99% of the players.

However, if the surprise aspect is so important, what is the problem with creating a usergroup of cartographers, mapmakers (at least one medal) and long-time foundry contributors, who would handle the creation of all "surprise maps"? It would be more fair, it would give the foundry community a chance to to participate, and it wouldn't circumvent the process. And it would result in hell of a lot better maps.

All members of the usergroup would have to agree to confidentiality, and if they couldn't keep it they'd be removed from the group forever. However, I don't think any one of the foundry regulars would go willingly spoiling the surprises, I think the people in the foundry are trustworthy enough to handle this kind of responsibility. Too bad the admin doesn't seem to feel that way...

[koontz1973]

Putting Christmas and Easter into the foundry as soon as they have been revealed is the best way forward. Having them listed as Beta for the month they are live would produce far better maps. As for the usergroup idea, why not have one apart from the fact that people would not stop by everyday so if a map is in production and needs feedback, before a deadline, it would not work. Usergroups a great if users go to them. If not, it is dead city. And then you get the pissed of people who say why was I not invited to join and why could I not comment on this map. Considering what else can be made like this now, I see no reason to change the way it has been done apart from putting the maps into the foundry and keeping them there till they are done (after the fact). Who in the usergroup gets the privilege of his/her map being made, another competition that turns out to be a popularity contest? Standards are high in the foundry and seasonal maps must meet them This idea that only a small percentage of players come to the foundry is questionable, a lot more come in to have a look but never comment. How can we know how many come into the foundry to have a look around.

All I would propose is to have the maps made by whoever, but by someone who has at least one map, and is a regular foundry member.
That map to be made in secret as it is now, with a guiding hand of one CA or another map maker
As soon as the map is made public, it is released into the foundry for changes to be made.
After the map goes off line, it stays in the foundry till graphics are completed.
The map maker would have to prove with his attitude that he/she can make all changes quickly. So a map maker that makes an update every month (Istanbul) would not be considered but another that can do it (natty or DiM or even myself), should be allowed to do these maps.

I have never been one to complain about the maps we have gotten like this, but it would of been nice to comment on them while I was playing them. Christmas GP is bloody awful for team games as well as singles. Easter just looks bad.

[DiM]

As soon as the map is made public, it is released into the foundry for changes to be made.
After the map goes off line, it stays in the foundry till graphics are completed.

that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one? in my opinion that whole map should be scraped and started from scratch. it's awful. i can't find a single thing i like about it.
what then? you release it and the next day you scratch everything and start making completely new drafts?

[koontz1973]

As soon as the map is made public, it is released into the foundry for changes to be made.
After the map goes off line, it stays in the foundry till graphics are completed.

that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one? in my opinion that whole map should be scraped and started from scratch. it's awful. i can't find a single thing i like about it.
what then? you release it and the next day you scratch everything and start making completely new drafts?

Then it gets scrapped and remade. Over the course of the month, the GP would of been sorted out so if a complete remake is warranted, then so be it. If only little things need to be done, then it can be done during live play.

I am not saying a map should not have the foundry process, but a seasonal map should have certain privileges like going into live play first. A map maker should be aware that if they do this, it will go into the foundry and they have to make the changes and no medal of premium will be given till it is done.

[natty dread]

Yes, and that still avoids the issue, who gets to decide who makes these maps? I think it should be an open process like the making of all other maps, so that all the mapmakers would have the possibility to get to make them. We have lots of mapmaking talent here, it's weird that the site doesn't want to utilize that talent for the special maps which are supposed to be sort of celebratory events for the site.

Usergroups a great if users go to them. If not, it is dead city. And then you get the pissed of people who say why was I not invited to join and why could I not comment on this map.

Well that's why I suggest the maps get made in the foundry openly. If that's not possible, then a usergroup is still a hell of a lot better than doing it all behind closed doors so no one gets to comment.

Who in the usergroup gets the privilege of his/her map being made

A democratic process. The CA:s could inform the mapmakers that there is a need for a map, and the interested mapmakers could let the CA:s know they are interested, and then if there's multiple mapmakers interested in the project they could either work together in it or a friendly contest can be held.

another competition that turns out to be a popularity contest?

I don't think any competition has turned out to be "a popularity contest". Especially when they are anonymous, maybe some people vote their friends or against their enemies, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people vote the map they actually find the best. People have different tastes.

This idea that only a small percentage of players come to the foundry is questionable

It's not questionable, it's a fact. Do you know the percentage of CC players that even visit the forums at all? It's less than 5% if I recall correctly. Out of those, maybe 10-20% (a generous estimate) visit the foundry even occasionally. So I'd estimate, no more than a 1% of the active CC members visit the foundry.

[natty dread]

that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one?

Then it gets scrapped and remade.

That's stupid. Why not do it properly in the first place?

[koontz1973]

that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one?

Then it gets scrapped and remade.

That's stupid. Why not do it properly in the first place?

Like your London map. You completely reworked the graphics. A lot of maps get redrawn from scratch half way through if it is not working. It is not a matter of doing it right in the first place, it is a matter of doing it right.
If the CAs sent out a general invite to all map makers to see if they want to do a map for the site, then that could work as well. But I see nothing wrong with the way it is being done now apart from the fact that the foundry and community as a whole is shut out completely. Keep it as a surprise but allow it the foundry scrutiny.

[natty dread]

Like your London map. You completely reworked the graphics. A lot of maps get redrawn from scratch half way through if it is not working. It is not a matter of doing it right in the first place, it is a matter of doing it right.

Yes but my london map didn't go into live play halfway through the development, before any of the foundry community had a chance to comment on it.

If you're concerned of maintaining the surprise element, why not make it the best kind of surprise: a positive one?

I see nothing wrong with the way it is being done now apart from the fact that the foundry and community as a whole is shut out completely.

I see nothing wrong with the holocaust apart from the fact that millions of jews were brutally murdered.

[koontz1973]

I see nothing wrong with the holocaust apart from the fact that millions of jews were brutally murdered.

WTF natty.

[Flapcake]

why can there not be several special event maps? like 5-10 Christmas maps, etc. and then make a Christmas turnament with surprise gifts for the one who wins, loses or otherwise participate, you can create many different events with a surprise in. like "find 5 errors", etc.
Many different special event maps would also get several different map makers on the track.
The idea of ​​a "closed user group" is basically okay too, it should just be that its only those who have the interest, know that you must aplly to this group will sort the unserious / uninterested away automatic. fill out a form for why you wanna join this group. it might also be to discriminatory ?

Crismas and easter are christians holydays, but all ohter relegions have holydays aswell, as I see it there could be work for all the mapmakers in the foundry

[natty dread]

I see nothing wrong with the holocaust apart from the fact that millions of jews were brutally murdered.

WTF natty.

Ok, how about this one:

I see nothing wrong with censorship apart from the fact that it violates free speech.

[DiM]

another competition that turns out to be a popularity contest?

I don't think any competition has turned out to be "a popularity contest". Especially when they are anonymous, maybe some people vote their friends or against their enemies, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people vote the map they actually find the best. People have different tastes.

you're naive to think competitions are anonymous and results aren't fixed.

[DiM]

that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one?

Then it gets scrapped and remade.

That's stupid. Why not do it properly in the first place?

It is not a matter of doing it right in the first place, it is a matter of doing it right.

actually not in this case.

i don't know who made the "special" maps we have now and i don't care but i can surely imagine whoever did them would have no incentive to redraw them completely once they're released to the public.

let's say i'm that demonart guy we see on some maps. lack asks for a christmas map and i deliver some kind of crap. it gets released, people play it for 2 weeks (while it's open) then it is closed for the rest of the year and people ask me to completely redraw it. "why would i do it? the map was live people played on it, now it's closed. end of story. you don't like it, make your own next year."

[koontz1973]

St Patricks Day - Oaktown
Easter - Samuelc812
Colosseum - Samuelc812
2011 WC - Samualc812
2010 WC - MrBenn
Christmas - MrBenn

The incentive comes the same as the rest of us. Medal and premium. Why do any of us make these maps of ours. They are something we love to do. The problem lies with the back room coming up with an idea for a map and not following through with it till the end. All of the above maps could use some time in the foundry and you ask why would the map maker do that, for the simple reason you do it. Your love of doing it. If the site chooses a map maker that is not willing to follow through with the guidelines, then they should not be chosen.

We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium. The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on. Istanbul will not get the medal and premium till it is out of beta. Why not have that for Christmas or any new map that comes along.

[thenobodies80]

I don't think they received a premium....but I'm not sure I have to ask to lackattack....or MrBenn who is reading this thread

[thenobodies80]

A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.
I understand your point in making a call and see who wants to take part, in the same time you should consider two aspects:

1. not everyone use the same software. You know is an hell to move things from PS and GIMP, yes there's a conversion tool, but effects get lost...usually. In few words lot of time wasted for nothing.
2. You're asking to not have the special maps production related with, let me say, an "elite" of people but using instead a usergroup....As said it's already in this way adn anyway that usergroup is just another "elitè". There's no compromise between a small group and a open public process. No trying to flame you, but it sounds "I'm angry because i'm not part of it". Seriously not a flame.

If you want and if the people who has more power than me agree I'm open to make a call every time we are going to develope a map behind the scenes. Let me said that I see some flaws in that system. I like more the option draw the map, then have a public topic once it's released.
Premiums and medals can given only after that the mapamker change the map accordingly the people requests, if not he receives nothing and the map is binned.
It's simpler and it works 100%

[DiM]

St Patricks Day - Oaktown
Easter - Samuelc812
Colosseum - Samuelc812
2011 WC - Samualc812
2010 WC - MrBenn
Christmas - MrBenn

The incentive comes the same as the rest of us. Medal and premium. Why do any of us make these maps of ours. They are something we love to do. The problem lies with the back room coming up with an idea for a map and not following through with it till the end. All of the above maps could use some time in the foundry and you ask why would the map maker do that, for the simple reason you do it. Your love of doing it. If the site chooses a map maker that is not willing to follow through with the guidelines, then they should not be chosen.

We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium. The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on. Istanbul will not get the medal and premium till it is out of beta. Why not have that for Christmas or any new map that comes along.

except for colosseum (which is salvageable) all the others are good to be scratched and binned.
the medal and premium are nothing or close to nothing if all you want is your map to be out there then there's nothing to motivate you to follow up and improve that map especially if you're looking to approximately 6 months of foundry nagging and dozens of updates. the map is available to play for 2 weeks just as you made it. to rework it according to foundry specs just to get another 2 weeks next christmas is pointless. you'd be better off making a different secret christmas map each year

[DiM]

A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.

the difference between a close usergroup and what you have now is huge.
in a closed usergroup you could have 30 people with a lot of experience in mapmaking (map makers/CAs/foundry regulars) while in your small group of people you have what? 5 people? and out of those 5 how many are actually foundry regulars or experienced map makers? cause i'm betting some of them are just people from the entertainment team who rarely visit the foundry.

an with no offence to the people that worked on those maps but the results aren't even decent. maybe it was a really tight schedule, maybe the map maker had no experience, maybe the small group that was supposed to give feedback wasn't too inspired. whatever the reasons, the outcome is the one that really matters.
and i'm not talking about graphics alone. from a gameplay perspective those maps aren't really good either.

the best solution would be for such maps to be openly made in the foundry. the closest best would be a group consisting of map makers/CAs/foundry regulars. along with some other factors like decent deadlines, decent graphic artists, etc.

[natty dread]

you're naive to think competitions are anonymous and results aren't fixed.

How are they fixed? Someone manipulating the voting results, or what?

I don't want to get into a huge argument over this, but... Maybe everyone just doesn't like the same kind of maps you do. I mean, I don't agree with all the contest results either, there've been some contests where I've thought the best entry didn't win, but I still don't believe those are "fixed" in any way. Just that people have different tastes.

We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium.

Contest winners don't get a pass. They get moved straight to final forge (or to main foundry these days), but they still have to receive feedback and suggestions and make updates before the map goes live, as well as during the beta testing.

The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on.

Thing is, that still doesn't address the issue. The maps would still get a free pass through the foundry process, there would be no feedback before the map goes live. And it still goes against the whole foundry process: the foundry guidelines state very clearly that beta-testing is not the place to test out ideas, that maps should be as close to finished as possible before beta... the beta phase is supposed to be only a final contingency, to find any flaws that may have been unanticipated by the foundry.

Also, the issue of choosing the mapmaker is still an issue. It's currently also done behind closed doors, someone who's in the "inner circle" gets to make the map. Ie. samuel or mr benn currently. Why aren't other mapmakers being offered the chance to create these maps? If we could get someone like Kabanellas or Tisha or Dim to make some of these seasonal maps, and get some of the foundry regulars to give feedback during the process, there'd probably be some amazing maps.

And it wouldn't even be that hard. All that has to be done is:

1) entertainment team/whatever entity it is that deciedes these things decides the need for a new seasonal map
2) they inform CA:s, who inform mapmakers who are the most active in the foundry of the opportunity
3) then, those interested submit drafts and
4) then maybe a panel of CA:s, some foundry regulars, mapmakers, admin & entertainment team etc. can decide which one gets done, or it can be put to a vote. Then, that same panel can offer feedback during the development, and once it's done the map goes live. At that point it can be treated the same as beta maps, it can have a thread in the foundry and receive feedback and updates can be made.

You also said there'd be a problem of people complaining they wouldn't get in this deciding panel, but if we just round up all the people who are active in the foundry on a regular basis and ask if they're interested, then all those who would even be interested in being in it would very likely be included.

Again, it's not as good as having the map made openly in the foundry, but if this "surprise" element must be maintained, then it's the best possible solution.