SIEGE! - PSD available - [Quenched]

[mibi]

yep i agree with dim s sated before...can you make adjustments...I think it would look much nicer

that would require reducing the gate to one territory, making a total of 55, which would then have neutrals on every map. not going to work.

you reduce the gate to one terit but you add the barbican

well how would i depict that the gate cannot attack the brarbican or walls, the barbican can attack the gate, and the gate goes under the barbican and can attack the wards?

why shouldn't the gate attack the walls or the barbican?

umm... because when your storming a castle or fortress you don't cross the bridge and then try to rock climb 20 foot walls on both sides while people are reigning down arrows and boiling oil on you.

you storm into the inner wards and if you so chose climb the stairs to get to the walls like everyone else.

[DiM]

yep i agree with dim s sated before...can you make adjustments...I think it would look much nicer

that would require reducing the gate to one territory, making a total of 55, which would then have neutrals on every map. not going to work.

you reduce the gate to one terit but you add the barbican

well how would i depict that the gate cannot attack the brarbican or walls, the barbican can attack the gate, and the gate goes under the barbican and can attack the wards?

why shouldn't the gate attack the walls or the barbican?

umm... because when your storming a castle or fortress you don't cross the bridge and then try to rock climb 20 foot walls on both sides while people are reigning down arrows and boiling oil on you.

you storm into the inner wards and if you so chose climb the stairs to get to the walls like everyone else.

well actually i wasn't aware this is a realistic map. especially when i saw the walls can't attack outside but they can be attacked. i talking about the one way attacks from the swamp and the plains. where are the archers now? and the boiling water?

and actually many castles have a system like this:


you go on the moat and reach the gate. breach if and then there are 3 options. go ahead in to the courtyard ar breach the 2 stairs to the left and right walls.

so there's plenty of realism in what i say

[mibi]

yep i agree with dim s sated before...can you make adjustments...I think it would look much nicer

that would require reducing the gate to one territory, making a total of 55, which would then have neutrals on every map. not going to work.

you reduce the gate to one terit but you add the barbican

well how would i depict that the gate cannot attack the brarbican or walls, the barbican can attack the gate, and the gate goes under the barbican and can attack the wards?

why shouldn't the gate attack the walls or the barbican?

umm... because when your storming a castle or fortress you don't cross the bridge and then try to rock climb 20 foot walls on both sides while people are reigning down arrows and boiling oil on you.

you storm into the inner wards and if you so chose climb the stairs to get to the walls like everyone else.

well actually i wasn't aware this is a realistic map. especially when i saw the walls can't attack outside but they can be attacked. i talking about the one way attacks from the swamp and the plains. where are the archers now? and the boiling water?

and actually many castles have a system like this:


you go on the moat and reach the gate. breach if and then there are 3 options. go ahead in to the courtyard ar breach the 2 stairs to the left and right walls.

so there's plenty of realism in what i say

well the walls are defensive positions. ok that being said, lets say they have no arches, juust huge pots of boiling oil and stones to throw or something. well they can throw the stones down on the people crossing the gate below them, but they cant attack the plains because the stones are too heavy to throw. also you cant throw boiling oil. however if armies attack from the plains to the wall well then they face losing armies from a heavily defended area.

this makes the most sense to me. the inner gate strongly favors the defenders since it can be attacked from 3 sides (of the fortress) the outer gate strongly favors the attackers since it can only be attacked by the inner gate, and can be fortified from 3 continents. this all assuming you have an outside/inside the fortress scenario.

as for your image, isn't that whats already there. you breach the ward, then you can go forward to breach the inner wall or to the left or right to breach the outer wall.

[hulmey]

Actually if you think about it...THe attackers would pound the drawbridge and door of the castle with battering rams!!!

Like in the film lord of the rings

[mibi]

Actually if you think about it...THe attackers would pound the drawbridge and door of the castle with battering rams!!!

Like in the film lord of the rings

yeah i agree! but once they broke down the door they wouldn't pound the walls with the battering ram when they can take the stairs

[hulmey]

what!?!?!

[Tommy Hobbes]

damn you semanticians. It's finished! no need for more fine tuning! Just play it!

[Neilhouse]

You can't pound a gate or a drawbridge with a battering ram if the drawbridge is up and there is a moat in your way.

[unriggable]

Bonuses are quite screwed up. Why is tunnel worth two?

[mibi]

Bonuses are quite screwed up. Why is tunnel worth two?

to keep the action on the rest of the map.

[vinroc]

wow great map,i cant wait to play this one.good job dude!

[Coleman]

Bonuses are quite screwed up. Why is tunnel worth two?

to keep the action on the rest of the map.

Since someone else bumped this anyway... The bonus values have been heavily debated earlier in the topic and are unlikely to change at this stage. While I agree The tunnel resembles Africa in structure it's strategic value makes 2 an acceptable bonus, and that has already been discussed.

The Latest XML
http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/Seige8.xml

Changes
1) Added spaces to many of the territory names. (Thanks Keyogi!)
2) Fixed some of the borders... (Whoops...)

I need to fix a lot of the centering since the wards have changed but I just ran out of time. Tomorrow I should have more time to get it done.

[Marvaddin]

Yes, not playable. If I remember well, you were the guy saying that the wood camp and the gate was very difficult to hold, and it would deserve a bonus of +5 (its now reduced to 4, and its still high, by the way). So, wood camp + gate is difficult for you, and throne + walls is something "certainly possible"? Trust me, its not playable.

I never really thought the camp + gate thing was difficult. All three would be, but just one camp and the gate not so much. Throne + All Walls seems possible to me, but whatever. I guess we have to just Trust you that it isn't.

Also, all your silly bonus talk at the end flys in the face of the bonus calculator. Every bonus on the map is significantly close to the formula results.

( ( ( Territories * 1.5 ) + ( Border Territories * 4 ) + ( Neighbor Territories / 2 ) + Neighbor Regions ) / 6 ) ) - 1

Now while you could argue the formula is wrong, or shouldn't always be followed I think you'll find most of the good maps have their bonuses spot on with it.

^^ Haha, this is very funny coming from a guy that never designed a map (until where I know) and thinks that Indochina is the best map, and Europe is the worst one...

Mibi, the tunnel is worthy 2 in your opinion... to keep the action... hmmm, maybe you can convince me about this... not much probable however, but why is the forest worthy 3, then? Maybe you should explain the reason of all your bonuses to us... looks like coleman is your bonuses tutor, so maybe we all should learn more about his "wonderfull" calculator

[Coleman]

Yes, not playable. If I remember well, you were the guy saying that the wood camp and the gate was very difficult to hold, and it would deserve a bonus of +5 (its now reduced to 4, and its still high, by the way). So, wood camp + gate is difficult for you, and throne + walls is something "certainly possible"? Trust me, its not playable.

I never really thought the camp + gate thing was difficult. All three would be, but just one camp and the gate not so much. Throne + All Walls seems possible to me, but whatever. I guess we have to just Trust you that it isn't.

Also, all your silly bonus talk at the end flys in the face of the bonus calculator. Every bonus on the map is significantly close to the formula results.

( ( ( Territories * 1.5 ) + ( Border Territories * 4 ) + ( Neighbor Territories / 2 ) + Neighbor Regions ) / 6 ) ) - 1

Now while you could argue the formula is wrong, or shouldn't always be followed I think you'll find most of the good maps have their bonuses spot on with it.

^^ Haha, this is very funny coming from a guy that never designed a map (until where I know) and thinks that Indochina is the best map, and Europe is the worst one...

Mibi, the tunnel is worthy 2 in your opinion... to keep the action... hmmm, maybe you can convince me about this... not much probable however, but why is the forest worthy 3, then? Maybe you should explain the reason of all your bonuses to us... looks like coleman is your bonuses tutor, so maybe we all should learn more about his "wonderfull" calculator

That formula comes from Samus and WidowMakers and the bonuses for this map come from pages of discussion and debate. This is the second map I've helped with and both are at Final Forge status. Your only claim to fame I'm currently aware of is that you talk a lot and I can only tell that from your outrageously high post count.

I don't think Indochina is the best map, it is the map I play the best on. I also like Europe a lot, but for some reason I horribly suck at playing on it.

Back to the issue at hand, the Forest is worth 3 because it has a territory with a huge number of bordering territories making it harder to hold then South America, which probably looks the same to you.

EDIT: I realize that came off a little mean. While it is the internet and I should just let it go I recognize that I don't know you and that you are probably an important valued member of CC.

[hulmey]

bonus armies are fine and have been discussed and should remain how they are

[Samus]

So, here's what I get from the bonus formula. For the Great Hall and the Throne + Walls, it is assumed that the Throne and the Great Hall are owned together, and therefore are not considered bordering territories or regions (voided from the calculations). Otherwise you would come to out of whack numbers like 5 borders for Great Hall when you will almost certainly take the Throne and Inner Wall 2 to have 1 border (I input 3 borders).

Throne: 0.50
Great Hall: 2.50
Throne + Walls: 5.67
East/West Wards: 2.83
Midlands: 5.67
Plains: 3.50
Swamp: 3.67
Forest: 2.33
Woods Camp: 1.33
River Camp: 1.42
Woods Camp + Gate: 4.83
River Camp + Gate: 4.92
Both Camps + Gate: 7.25
Tunnel: 3.50

Keep in mind that the numbers for holding stuff together do not reflect the bonus you would already be receiving from the parts, such as the +1 you're already getting for the Throne.

Something that sticks out to me is the Plains at 3.50 and the River Camp at 1.42. Considering you can hold these two together with only 2 borders (which is pretty clearly what you'll do), I feel like one of these should have the bonus reduced by 1.

The Forest is kind of up in the air. Feels like armies in the Midlands and the Swamp will come right for the Forest and the Woods Camp, and then those two will go right at each other. So claiming victory there is really claiming victory over a much wider area than just those 4 territories. It should be noted that the way WidowMakers calculates it, it comes out to 2.58.

The Tunnel comes out to 3.50. Outer Wall 3 connects to Tunnel 3, right? I'm not missing anything here? 7 territories, 3 borders, a bonus of +3 seems warranted.


Also, I'm a little unclear on what you will actually get from overlapping bonuses. If you hold the Throne + Walls, will the log read +1 for Throne and then +4 for "Throne and Walls," or an added +5 for "Throne and Walls" for a total of +6?

[Coleman]

It's a total of 6. I arived at a lot of the same things, but then I went through the topic and looked at a lot of the arguments and I don't find I generally disagree with any of the bonuses.

[mibi]

So, here's what I get from the bonus formula. For the Great Hall and the Throne + Walls, it is assumed that the Throne and the Great Hall are owned together, and therefore are not considered bordering territories or regions (voided from the calculations). Otherwise you would come to out of whack numbers like 5 borders for Great Hall when you will almost certainly take the Throne and Inner Wall 2 to have 1 border (I input 3 borders).

Throne: 0.50
Great Hall: 2.50
Throne + Walls: 5.67
East/West Wards: 2.83
Midlands: 5.67
Plains: 3.50
Swamp: 3.67
Forest: 2.33
Woods Camp: 1.33
River Camp: 1.42
Woods Camp + Gate: 4.83
River Camp + Gate: 4.92
Both Camps + Gate: 7.25
Tunnel: 3.50

Keep in mind that the numbers for holding stuff together do not reflect the bonus you would already be receiving from the parts, such as the +1 you're already getting for the Throne.

Something that sticks out to me is the Plains at 3.50 and the River Camp at 1.42. Considering you can hold these two together with only 2 borders (which is pretty clearly what you'll do), I feel like one of these should have the bonus reduced by 1.

The Forest is kind of up in the air. Feels like armies in the Midlands and the Swamp will come right for the Forest and the Woods Camp, and then those two will go right at each other. So claiming victory there is really claiming victory over a much wider area than just those 4 territories. It should be noted that the way WidowMakers calculates it, it comes out to 2.58.

The Tunnel comes out to 3.50. Outer Wall 3 connects to Tunnel 3, right? I'm not missing anything here? 7 territories, 3 borders, a bonus of +3 seems warranted.


Also, I'm a little unclear on what you will actually get from overlapping bonuses. If you hold the Throne + Walls, will the log read +1 for Throne and then +4 for "Throne and Walls," or an added +5 for "Throne and Walls" for a total of +6?

in addition to the individual bonus, i alway want some balance in terms of an in/out of the fortress. so holding the whole fortress without the tunnel or gate is a deployment of 19, holding all the outlands without the gate or tunnel is 22, with the gate its 33.

with that in mind, i would have on problems with any or all of the following bonus changes

river camp 1
forest 2
any camp + gate 3

as for the tunnel, keep in mind that it takes 7 territories to hold it so its +5 deployment at least. but the +2 is really there so the tunnel is used more strategically then just another territory to be conquered. just something to keep your eye on. personally i would rather it would be +1. but that seems a bit too low for people to handle.

[mibi]

well i changed the bonus to have more balance between the fortress and outlands, as well as the east and west of the outlands. samus pointed out that the plains and river camp would be +6 for defending two territories. now its +5. which is more in line with the +7 for defending 4 territories of the swamp + forest + woods.

also upon thinking about it further, the +11 for both camps and the gate was just too high. it's now +8. which is still 3 above the throne + walls bonus.

i think its all well and balanced now.


Changes
River camp is now +1
Forest is now +2
Any camp + gate is now +3, which makes both camps + gate = 8
Throne circle is moved over one pixel to the left in small map.



small

[hulmey]

the bonuses have been screwd up compeletly The Forest has 5 borders and gets 2 armies has everyone gone nuts?

[dominationnation]

the bonuses have been screwd up compeletly The Forest has 5 borders and gets 2 armies has everyone gone nuts?

what are you talking about. It only has two borders.

Also I thought that I should point out that 38nd isn't a word its 38th.

38nd would be pronunced thirty-eightnd

[mibi]

the bonuses have been screwd up compeletly The Forest has 5 borders and gets 2 armies has everyone gone nuts?

I think you mean it is bordered by 5 territories, actually its 6 with the woods camp. Which doesn't mean much since 5 of those territories can be defend from just one territory. So yeah, in play anyone who takes the forest will have many armies on forest 2, which works to its advantage since it can break 3 bonuses from that position.

The bonuses are fine.

[Coleman]

Latest XML (Finished?):

1) Fixed Centering
2) Fixed Small Error In East Ward.
3) Adjusted to New Bonuses.
4) Double Checked Everything

http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/Seige9.xml

Note: My file hosting stopped working so I couldn't put up the maps with the numbers as placed by the xml and I'm too lazy to find a better one. If anyone would like to use the xml I linked to generate the maps and upload for me that would be great.

[Coleman]

Latest XML (Finished!):

1) Removed all the silly - marks.
2) Renamed most of the continents per mibi's request.
3) Spelled Siege correctly.

http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/Siege10.xml

[mibi]

with XML



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