[Abandoned] - Gettysburg

[MartinRiggs]

Having visited the battlefield I think this is a great idea. I think the bonus's should be more well defined. Also the Gettysburg town location is importand in gaining bonus's. But it's not centrally located enough to make it fair to someone who had an initial drop predominately in the south. Overall though I believe this is a good concept and with some tweaking should work out

[Minister X]

Here's the third draft. I've included a blurb with some info about the battle, taken the "6" out of Gettysburg to avoid confusion (it starts with a 6 neutral sitting there), enhanced the bonus area color shadings, and gotten rid of the faux paper folds.

show: third draft since revised

Martin Riggs: I feel I ought to remain as faithful to the actual battle as I can, and much more action took place far south (i.e. Round Top) than north of the town. One would need an awfully bad drop to not be within two of Gettysburg. Therefore I'm inclined to not attempt the fix you suggested. I'd like to hear if others agree with this decision or think the town ought to be more centered.

[sannemanrobinson]

The legend mentions a conditional autodeploy which is not possible (yet). You could use a normal bonus for holding Gettysburg+surrounding region.

You still have a conditional autodeploy in the city (hold Gettysburg + two bonus zones). This is not possible. Why would this reflect reality anyway?

Farms or railroads could be starting neutrals with an autodeploy. Like a local delivery of goods.

[Minister X]

The legend mentions a conditional autodeploy which is not possible (yet). You could use a normal bonus for holding Gettysburg+surrounding region.

You still have a conditional autodeploy in the city (hold Gettysburg + two bonus zones). This is not possible. Why would this reflect reality anyway?

Farms or railroads could be starting neutrals with an autodeploy. Like a local delivery of goods.

Thanks for reminding me. I neglected to fix it before. I'll soon put it back to a regular bonus, which is what I prefer. The reason Gettysburg is worth having in addition to the other specified road areas is that you must go through the town to accomplish anything useful. Remember, please, that we're talking campaign strategy here, not battlefield tactics. From the campaign standpoint, it does little or no good to have the roads east and west but not the road hub. The idea is to be able to establish a supply line from where you were before you arrived at Gettysburg to where you want to go when you leave. For either side that means having to hold the city.

Why extra troops? Other than victory conditions, I can't think of anything else as a reward. But there's rationale beyond that. If Lee had been able to secure the town and a road forward he'd have brought up some more troops and lots more supplies (which makes the existing troops worth more). If all he had was a road in, he'd have retreated back down it. (That's exactly what he did.) He could not afford to wage a long invasion - he needed to complete a quick strike. That means he needed to keep extending his supply line until he reached a valuable enough target like Harrisburg or Philadelphia.

Meade, on the other hand, didn't want to just meet Lee and beat him, he wanted to destroy the Army of Virginia. At least that's what Lincoln wanted him to do. Once Lee retreated he had possession of the town and roads needed, but he'd taken such a beating that he could not pursue. Still, it was a strategic victory - Lee's invasion had failed and he was headed south; the war could continue and eventually the Union would grind down their more dashing but less numerous and well-supplied opponents.

[sannemanrobinson]

I understand u want to give a reward for holding a route to the city, the city and a route from the city. Only is the legend not very consistent in this (3 for all of To Hagerstown and to York) where there is a gap in the route. Is it an idea to draw routes on the map just like your Rome map instead of combined bonuses as stated in the legend?

[Minister X]

Hagerstown to York: you'd get two for Hagerstown, two for York, and then an extra three if you also hold Gettysburg, for a total of seven. Do you think this has to be made clearer? If so, I'll certainly try to do that. I can see that your English isn't perfect, which is one reason all explanations have to be as clear as possible. One shouldn't have to have perfect command of English to play these games.

[Minister X]

Fourth Draft - improved graphics and some fixes:

show: superseded map

By making the word "TO" smaller, as in TO TANEYTOWN, I'm able to ignore it in the legend, thus making it so much easier to understand.

[MarshalNey]

I love the graphics and the simplicity of gameplay, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents as far as history goes, since I did a lot of research on the War With a Dozen Monikers that is commonly referred to as the American Civil War, and a ridiculous amount in particular on Gettysburg in preparation for a currently vacationed map (which, if you have any inclination to replace my graphic skills on that one, I'd be ecstatic ).

Now, before I say anything further, let me acknowledge that fudging historical details in order to accomodate gameplay is not only accepted, but expected in CC maps. So don't take my post as a cry for an exact replica of the battle by any means. My map concept, for instance, aimed at a detailed concept (and a complex map) and yet many terrain features were distorted/rotated and a few troop locations guessed at in order to satisfy gameplay. This map is far simpler and that's a strength, I think, but I also think that history can be accomodated without ruining the gameplay framework.

My biggest problem, unfortunately, is the implication of the gameplay that the battle centered around the town of Gettysburg itself. Like most Civil War battles (Vicksburg, Atlanta, Washington and "Petersburg" being the exceptions that come to mind) Gettysburg was so named because that was the nearest population center, but was not especially important as a place to be held or taken. Southern names for battles followed this pattern of naming battles for nearby towns or cities, while Northern names used the nearest body of water or terrain feature (which I've always found odd considering the cultures in question).

In other words, the battle between the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac happened to take place near Gettysburg, but the town itself was not the main object of the fighting. Rather, the goal of the Northern forces was to impede the advance of their enemy, while the goal of the Southern forces was to crush the opposing army.

To illustrate why this is such a grave departure from history, let me point out that by the dawn of the second day of this 3-day battle, the Confederate troops were in uncontested possession of the town of Gettysburg. In fact, using your map bonuses, the Rebels held:

Hanover
York
Railroad
to Cities North
Gettysburg
to Chambersburg
to Hagerstown
Seminary
Just Farms

This would result in the Rebel side getting bonuses of +23 compared to the Union's paltry +9. Day 2 and 3 of the battle, then, should have been overwhelmingly in favor of the South, yet it clearly wasn't.

Now I understand that a CC map won't involve just 2 sides divided along historical lines, but the fact that such lines aren't even possible on this map because the bonuses overvalue Gettysburg seems strange.

The Union's strategy was purely defensive from the beginning; General Meade was only convinced to stay through the advice of General Howard and later General Hancock, and throughout the conflict he prevaricated about whether he should order a tactical withdrawal to Pipe Creek, where he had prepared a defensive line before the battle had erupted so unexpectedly. The reason the Federal generals wanted to stay was the excellent high ground that they occupied (except for the foolish ignoring of the Round Tops until it was almost too late).

I state this because the map seems to center more around terrain (I love the excellent illustration of Gettsyburg as a road hub) and yet does not indicate the central importance of the high ground.

In fact, there are very few impassibles on this map, and the ones that exist seem historically dubious.

For instance, Confederate Brig. General Law (under orders from Major General Hood) scouted the Round Tops from the position that would roughly correlate to Emmitsburg Road III on your map. He later willfully disobeyed the nonsensical plan of attack given to him, and changed the advance of his brigade substantially to the east, toward the Round Tops and Devil's Den, rather than straight up the Emmitsburg Road as ordered.

This was very important, since General Law's brigade was sent in first and acted as a guide for the other brigades of Hood's division. So they all followed his lead, and as a result two Confederate regiments ended up on Round Top while the rest of the troops were involved in a vicious assault on Devil's Den and Lt. General Sickles' Corps positioned along the Plum Run (labeled accurately as The Peach Orchard and Rose's Farm on your map).

Yet your map has the route of the Confederate advance to Round Top- the first troops to occupy its summit in fact- as impassible. Furthermore, once Devil's Den was taken from the Federals, at least 3 Confederate regiments proceeded from Devil's Den to attack the western slope of Little Round Top and assist in the separate Confederate attacks on the southern and southwestern slopes. The impassibles on this map clearly make this route of attack impossible. Admittedly, in the event the western slopes of Little Round Top were so steep that the advance go nowhere, but the Impassible between Round Top and Marsh Creek or Devil's Den makes little sense historically.

Less grevious but also puzzling is the impassible along Rock Creek, since Rebel General Walker's Stonewall Brigade was ordered to cross at that location if he felt that the Union forces in his front posed no immediate threat near Wolf's Hill (as it turns out, he mistakenly did think that they were a threat and thus kept his possibly battle-changing force out of the assault on Culp's Hill). Rebel General Johnson's brigade crossed Rock Creek at approximately where your impassible lies to attack Culp's Hill, although the passable route to the north between Benner's Hill and Culp's Hill is close enough to satisfy history I think. Nevertheless I don't think that the impassible is very well established.

I point these cases out because it seems to me that far more daunting terrain obstacle existed that aren't shown, such as the stone wall along Cemetery Ridge (not the wall itself, but the approaches to it), and the opposite approaches to Seminary Ridge, for instance. Or, rather, if the high ground of the Round Tops is going to be listed as impassible, then the high ground elswhere should also have impassibles.

Anyway, hope that this map does well, it looks wonderful and the simplicity is a welcome contrast to most maps in the Foundry right now.

-- Marshal Ney

[Minister X]

First the easy reply - regarding the impassaables: I originally had none but someone made the good point that a few would help. I chose the Roundtops one not because the line couldn't be crossed, but because in the historic battle the failure to take the Round Tops was critical and well-known. The impassable is designed to mimic history: make the taking of the RTs from the west impossible. I know that in the real battle it was an extremely close-run thing, but the ultimate failure is what I latched onto. However, my rationale is a bit confusing, weak, and inconsistent. All that's important from a gameplay standpoint is that a decent number of impassables get into the mix so as to break up the action on the map into sectors. I am entirely at your beck and call should you wish to suggest a set of impassables that will do the job and have a lot more historic/geographic rationale than mine. PLEASE suggest a full set.

As for the centrality of the town. It seems likely to me that you failed to read the designers notes in the first post. Everything you say is true, but relevant much more to battlefield strategy/tactics than to campaign strategy. Why did Lee invade Pennsylvania? By strategically threatening critical northern cities he opened up two possibilities: 1) occupy one of them and make the North sue for peace due to popular outcry against the war given the south's marshal skill, or 2) by threatening #1 bring the Army of the Potomac into battle under advantageous conditions and deliver such a beating that #1 then becomes a foregone conclusion. Now which would Lee have preferred? I think it was #1, but Gettysburg turned into #2. Still, as a matter of campaign strategy, he just wanted to create a line of supply to a major city - to go through Gettysburg. The fact that he owned all those things on day three was irrelevant to the campaign-level strategy because the Union was in position to immediately cut his supply line if he had disengaged and tried to move east from Gettysburg.

As for the high ground being so much more important than the town - part of the reason the Union generals avoided the town is to avoid the spectacle of a northern city being utterly ruined in battle. I know this can't count for much, but I used to play the SPI hex grid and cardboard squares "Cemetery Hill" of the "Blue and Gray" series a bunch, and very often the city was the center of action. Still, that's battlefield tactics and my idea is to ignore that and have the game reflect grand strategy more than division-level battle. Besides, how can you hope to simulate the latter in a CC-type game? Even in a two-player game there are no rational battle lines at the start.

Do you see why I went the way I did and why your entirely accurate comments aren't relevant to this particular game?
OR... is it the case that any game titled "Gattysburg" and using this bit of geography had better mimic the battle, period. That no one will recognize or care about my grand-strategy concept; that I'd need an essay on the map to explain it, and that therefore the entire basis for this particular design is misguided?

I fear the latter may be true.

[ironsij0287]

I don't know anything about the history of this map but I do say graphically it's really looking good.

[Minister X]

Thanks!

I just noticed that I have the word "Chambersburg" four times on the map, but spelled correctly only twice, and the two incorrect ones are incorrect in different ways!

[The Bison King]

Well this is really coming along. I'm thinking it's time for a sticky!

[MarshalNey]

First the easy reply - regarding the impassaables: I originally had none but someone made the good point that a few would help. I chose the Roundtops one not because the line couldn't be crossed, but because in the historic battle the failure to take the Round Tops was critical and well-known. The impassable is designed to mimic history: make the taking of the RTs from the west impossible. I know that in the real battle it was an extremely close-run thing, but the ultimate failure is what I latched onto. However, my rationale is a bit confusing, weak, and inconsistent. All that's important from a gameplay standpoint is that a decent number of impassables get into the mix so as to break up the action on the map into sectors. I am entirely at your beck and call should you wish to suggest a set of impassables that will do the job and have a lot more historic/geographic rationale than mine. PLEASE suggest a full set.

As for the centrality of the town. It seems likely to me that you failed to read the designers notes in the first post. Everything you say is true, but relevant much more to battlefield strategy/tactics than to campaign strategy. Why did Lee invade Pennsylvania? By strategically threatening critical northern cities he opened up two possibilities: 1) occupy one of them and make the North sue for peace due to popular outcry against the war given the south's marshal skill, or 2) by threatening #1 bring the Army of the Potomac into battle under advantageous conditions and deliver such a beating that #1 then becomes a foregone conclusion. Now which would Lee have preferred? I think it was #1, but Gettysburg turned into #2. Still, as a matter of campaign strategy, he just wanted to create a line of supply to a major city - to go through Gettysburg. The fact that he owned all those things on day three was irrelevant to the campaign-level strategy because the Union was in position to immediately cut his supply line if he had disengaged and tried to move east from Gettysburg.

As for the high ground being so much more important than the town - part of the reason the Union generals avoided the town is to avoid the spectacle of a northern city being utterly ruined in battle. I know this can't count for much, but I used to play the SPI hex grid and cardboard squares "Cemetery Hill" of the "Blue and Gray" series a bunch, and very often the city was the center of action. Still, that's battlefield tactics and my idea is to ignore that and have the game reflect grand strategy more than division-level battle. Besides, how can you hope to simulate the latter in a CC-type game? Even in a two-player game there are no rational battle lines at the start.

Do you see why I went the way I did and why your entirely accurate comments aren't relevant to this particular game?
OR... is it the case that any game titled "Gattysburg" and using this bit of geography had better mimic the battle, period. That no one will recognize or care about my grand-strategy concept; that I'd need an essay on the map to explain it, and that therefore the entire basis for this particular design is misguided?

I fear the latter may be true.

I thought about replying to this post in part, but really the response will be mostly the same to all parts so here it goes-

Please don't take my comments as a Foundry policy on maps needing to be battle-accurate. It isn't. In fact, anticipating this reaction is why I said:

Now, before I say anything further, let me acknowledge that fudging historical details in order to accomodate gameplay is not only accepted, but expected in CC maps. So don't take my post as a cry for an exact replica of the battle by any means. My map concept, for instance, is aimed at a detailed concept (and a complex map) and yet many terrain features were distorted/rotated and a few troop locations guessed at in order to satisfy gameplay. This map is far simpler and that's a strength, I think, but I also think that history can be accomodated without ruining the gameplay framework.

In other words, I support your general concept of keeping tactical maneuvers out of the gameplay. Also, I read your first post (actually I always read first posts) before posting myself and understand that you want the terrain to be the focus. I apologize if this didn't come through clearly.

What I'm trying to say is that this map does not ignore one aspect of a battle to focus on another; rather it completely invents a focus that never existed and never would have existed. Disregarding the fact that Lee detested the Union penchant for total war and was incensed when the Union shelled Fredricksburg, for instance (not because it was southern, but because it violated Lee's code of conduct), there still remains the basic fact that the Union couldn't have defended Gettysburg after Day 1, they were in full retreat. Also, there were better defensive positions available, which the Union general Howard recognized and that's why his HQ was on Cemetery Hill. Finally, taking or not taking Gettysburg was irrelevent to Union or Rebel strategy, as both armies basically ignored the town.

No, an essay doesn't need to be written on the history of the battle to make a vastly simplified version of it; but in my personal opinion, there's also no need to invent fictional aspects if the map pretends to be a rough depiction of history. Otherwise, why not change the title to something else? I feel that Cemetery Hill, for instance, could replace Gettysburg as your "bonus unlocker" for the gameplay and be historically true- so why choose one that isn't? Gen. Howard described Cemetery Hill as "the only position" as far as the Union was concerned; Lee's Day 2 plans focused on flanking Cemetery Hill and the artillery there bombarded practically every Southern unit involved in battle at one point or another.

My aim is not to drastically alter the map, my comments are aimed only at improving where improvement doesn't alter the mapmaker goals.

-- Marshal Ney

[Minister X]

This is the key:

...both armies basically ignored the town.

You are absolutely correct... during the battle. But once it was over the town was needed. Remember: I'm ignoring the battle and concentrating on the theater. Gettysburg was a important crossroads at the theater level even though the town proper was somewhat unimportant (not totally!) to the battle. Think of it this way: on my map the "Gettysburg" territory doesn't represent the town so much as it represents the idea of being able to move safely and freely through south-central Pennsylvania on your way somewhere else.

Your suggestion that Cemetery Hill be made the crucial spot shows me that you still are thinking at the tactical level. Now, in fact, one crucial road did go right over the hill, but the hill was important tactically because it commanded the town. It was the town that was important strategically. Had that hill been farther from the town it would have been MUCH less important.

Think of it this way: what if there had never been a battle there? Then the only important things would have been the roads, which by definition means the town where all those roads meet.

Ah. But there was a battle there, and everyone familiar with it will think as you are doing - that the town is too important. I insist that the map is correct insofar as it's a reflection of the way I'm thinking about the campaign as a whole. I readily admit that the map is no good at all, however. No one else is going to be able to think of the battle as I have been doing.

Possible solutions:
1) Give up the "G'burg plus roads" bonus idea and just make this a basic map with no special bonuses - redraw the town and place it within the north-central continent.
2) Combine the town and Cemetery Hill... somehow or other.

I can't think of any others and #2 is pretty lame.

Do you understand the limits of XML coding? If so, can you suggest some other nice little twists that might be built in once #1 is implemented and we're back at square one? I'd considered making the Devil's Den a minus one per turn penalty area, and that could still work. We could make plus ones out of the four critical spots: the two Cemetery Hills and the two Round Tops. Or perhaps totally different bonus continents would make more sense now that we're losing the road motif. I respect your knowledge of the battle and hope you'll offer more help. Also, I really do hope you'll suggest better impassables!

Thanks.

[isaiah40]

Okay this has a good draft, and the issue of impassables etc can be taken care of during gameplay discussion. So I deem this stamped!

[TaCktiX]

I'm going to side with MarshalNey. While the map is simple and graphically pleasing to look at, I look at it and do not see Gettysburg. I see a bunch of themed territories and a central hub of Gettysburg the town. Where's the disposition of troops? Where's the potential significance of high ground? I don't see a battle, I see a period geographical map, which considering it's Gettysburg of the infamous Gettysburg Address does not do at all.

I'll second the motion to reconsider where the focus for the map is. Right now it won't get a good reception when it comes to theme.

[Nola_Lifer]

Okay this has a good draft, and the issue of impassables etc can be taken care of during gameplay discussion. So I deem this stamped!

I disagree but then again I am not a mod.

[Minister X]

I'm going to side with MarshalNey.

Truth to tell, so am I. He and I are exchanging PMs about what to do from here moving forward.

[Minister X]

Update: MarshalNey and I are working together on some ideas and making great progress. Stay tuned.

[Minister X]

With MarshalNey's good ideas combined with my habit of never cleaning closets, I was able to devise a proper map and bonus structure that reflects both the strategy of Lee's invasion of the North (to some degree) and the famous tactical maneuvers/places of the battlefield.

Since the battle was a meeting engagement, with forces coming in from all directions, the roads into town correspond with the arriving forces. The more important the road, the more terts it has, and the larger its bonus. In order to determine the importance of each road I was able to use a dusty back-of-the-closet copy of the "Cemetery Hill" wargame published by SPI in 1975. (The old gamers are now having square cardboard nostalgia flashbacks.)

I counted up the combat value of the forces arriving on each road, doubling the value of artillery. (MarshalNey helped me determine which roads had been used by the forces that start on the SPI map.) By taking the cube root (actually 0.4, not 0.333) and rounding, I was able to directly convert the strength numbers into terts. The only exception I made was to add one tert to the Baltimore Pike; it was the best road leading southeast and if Lee had been able to get through the Union forces and down it to Baltimore or DC the war would have ended.

Thus, as you can see, both strategic and battlefield factors are reflected. Now in addition, we have the crucial spots on the map where those forces, coming in, most wanted to end up. These spots are primarily Cemetery Hill and the two Roundtops, with Culp's Hill and Wolf's Hill not far behind. To reflect the importance of these spots they all have a plus-one autodeploy per tert per turn. Then, in addition, both the Roundtops and Cemetery Hill are continents. The town itself had defensive value and serves to connect all the roads, so it also gets an autodeploy of one. Why not something more? Because despite its potential importance it barely played a role in the battle itself.

By assigning bonuses in this manner, it is hoped that the action of a CC game will, in addition to being dynamic and balanced, bring to the attention of the players those features which were most crucial to the battle. While actual battle simulation is almost impossible under this game system, the appearance of simulation might be achieved. Once I had determined the number of terts per continent, I utilized the bonus-calculator spreadsheet. The only exceptions I made to its results were the addition of one bonus troop to Cemetery Hill continent and the Roundtops continent, making them 4 and 2 instead of 3 and 1. The reason: the huge significance of these features to the actual battle.

The impassables are mostly based on terrain features, with liberties taken to ensure there are enough of them to break the map up. The Roundtops impassable is based on the historical fact that the Rebs would have had to get behind and flank them (or at least Little) to take them - they almost succeeded. The Devil's Den autoremove is almost completely explained by that battle nickname: the cannon fire from the hills made that terrain deadly. The impassable along Cemetery Ridge is not meant to reflect the topography but rather the stone wall that proved to be the bane of Pickett's charge.

Neutral starts of five units will be placed on the nine terts that get the autodeploys.

FIFTH DRAFT:

show: replaced

[Seamus76]

Need a little time to digest, but I like where you are heading.

Also, there is absolutely no better person for you to work with on this map other than Marshall. This should turn out well.

[isaiah40]

All I can say right now is much better!!

[Minister X]

Are there no complaints about this map? It's perfect? Or is it just that no one cares?

[Victor Sullivan]

Are there no complaints about this map? It's perfect? Or is it just that no one cares?

Patience, Young Sasquatch, Sully is on the case.

-Sully

[Victor Sullivan]

When one thinks of Gettysburg, he thinks of the Civil War, the Union, the Confederacy... There seems to be a lack of the two sides of the war/battle.I'm sure MarshalNey could help with this, but I think the roads should be designated as Confederate or Union, and you can only get a bonus for holding multiple roads if they're all either Confederate or Union. Also, with the auto-deploys for Round Top and Cemetery Hill, it seems rather overpowered to give a bonus for holding them in addition to the auto-deploy. Try something like +2 auto for Round Top, +1 auto for Cemetery Hill, and maybe up Gettysburg to +2 auto as well.

-Sully