[ACC] The All Comers Cup - Final

[WPBRJ]

9clans have registered so far, and some of them have done so without a protracted and agonizing attempt at thinking aloud in thread.

Yes, and the most common theme is that all of them with the exception of you as hosts were formed within the last year and are still at the back end of most ladders? For gathering mid-rank clans at the least, you don't seem to have done such a great job?
All I'm worried about is trying to make it more appealing for the rest of us, which obviously hasn't happened. I just put down my thoughts about why that could be so.
Rather than negativity, I'm just trying to find a way to make it more inclusive than it seems to be right now, and for that more than just dehumanizing me and my clan for making my comments, why can't we try and find out why clans like bss, legion, aod, bpb, g1, dyn and even myth (despite shocked's sentiments) etc aren't clamoring at the door to join this, since I would assume they're the ones an event like this should be shooting for - rather than the ones you currently have who I suspect aren't as aware of what exactly they're getting into...

well to be honest i see some middle clans in this tournament i don't see any top clans but to be fair if clans have 3 weeks to join why do they all have to jump right in right away?

most middle of the road clans have been around the block a few times and will talk to there clan mates the newer clan jump right away because they have not been around and are eager to play its just that simple and most middle clans will jump when the time is right and will join i think!

[Leehar]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

Also tbh, I wasn't very well disposed with how the NC played out. It's always a danger when you have a mix of old campaigners and new, that there's a huge risk of blow-outs. It was proved last year in Div 2A with Tofu's blow-outs victory's, and similarly here where I doubt you can say it was any different for teams like wd, O66 etc. When you have that blend of some experience and none, it's a lot worse than one with lots of experience and some, as can be proved in games where things like OSA-LoW are so much closer than OSA-O66/Pack-WD.

well to be honest i see some middle clans in this tournament i don't see any top clans but to be fair if clans have 3 weeks to join why do they all have to jump right in right away?

most middle of the road clans have been around the block a few times and will talk to there clan mates the newer clan jump right away because they have not been around and are eager to play its just that simple and most middle clans will jump when the time is right and will join i think!

Similar to my point with how it still does need a bit of discussion to decide whether it's worth taking part or not, which is why it's useful to discuss the points rather than sweepingly reject any and all statements as negativity and say: 'sign-up or get-out'

[eddie2]

leehar i dont want to sound bad but you have not signed up to this tourney yet. plz either sign up or shut up. your opinion would count if you joined and im sure your opinion would be disscused if you did. but at present you have not put your name forward for this. so as a clan that is not participating it has nothing to do with you.

what i mean by this is as follows.

you were not happy with one thing. so dj changed it did you sign up then nooooo. you complained about something else. instead of this join then comment and when it is about to start if you are not happy with the settings pull out. you have not commited to this event commite the say your thoughts.

[WPBRJ]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

Also tbh, I wasn't very well disposed with how the NC played out. It's always a danger when you have a mix of old campaigners and new, that there's a huge risk of blow-outs. It was proved last year in Div 2A with Tofu's blow-outs victory's, and similarly here where I doubt you can say it was any different for teams like wd, O66 etc. When you have that blend of some experience and none, it's a lot worse than one with lots of experience and some, as can be proved in games where things like OSA-LoW are so much closer than OSA-O66/Pack-WD.

well to be honest i see some middle clans in this tournament i don't see any top clans but to be fair if clans have 3 weeks to join why do they all have to jump right in right away?

most middle of the road clans have been around the block a few times and will talk to there clan mates the newer clan jump right away because they have not been around and are eager to play its just that simple and most middle clans will jump when the time is right and will join i think!

Similar to my point with how it still does need a bit of discussion to decide whether it's worth taking part or not, which is why it's useful to discuss the points rather than sweepingly reject any and all statements as negativity and say: 'sign-up or get-out'

leehar i wasnt trying to bash in any way if any i was just trying to say most wont sign up the first day unless there a newer clan is all

leehar i dont want to sound bad but you have not signed up to this tourney yet. plz either sign up or shut up. your opinion would count if you joined and im sure your opinion would be disscused if you did. but at present you have not put your name forward for this. so as a clan that is not participating it has nothing to do with you.

what i mean by this is as follows.

you were not happy with one thing. so dj changed it did you sign up then nooooo. you complained about something else. instead of this join then comment and when it is about to start if you are not happy with the settings pull out. you have not commited to this event commite the say your thoughts.

eddy your are dead wrong better clans want to know what there getting into and if they see a potential problem they should absolutely voice there opinion whether there in or out how are they suppose to make a rational decision if they are in or out if there are questions that are not being brought up that they see can be a problem? are they just suppose to sign up for the turny and hope some one will figure it out?

yes i will agree with some other comments that your top 8 or 10 clans absolutely discus everything to death kinda like your nucks topic its been discussed to death and there still is no good answer to it except to leave it out for now till cc does some thing about it and that's why i choose not to get in most discussions. from what i have read so far leerah has brought up some good points!!!!

[jpcloet]

Have you had the time to acquire or have prior knowledge of the FA cup? There is also precedence in tournaments on CC for higher seeded players/teams to have byes for the first few rounds of a tournament.

Probably not the best analogy. The FA cup is essentially all the 2nd tier of soccer and the teams that did not make or did not progress in the Champions league. If we consider CC2 to the be 1st level, than a number of teams from CC2 would not be eligible to play at all. The cups and extras are really just money makers based on huge TV rights.

Tournament precedence does not mean that it should happen.

So is your clan in jp?

I'll have to ask them, I have not seen a post in the AOD forums about it.

[ljex]

leehar i dont want to sound bad but you have not signed up to this tourney yet. plz either sign up or shut up. your opinion would count if you joined and im sure your opinion would be disscused if you did. but at present you have not put your name forward for this. so as a clan that is not participating it has nothing to do with you.

what i mean by this is as follows.

you were not happy with one thing. so dj changed it did you sign up then nooooo. you complained about something else. instead of this join then comment and when it is about to start if you are not happy with the settings pull out. you have not commited to this event commite the say your thoughts.

Your logic is extremely flawed for a few reasons

1) This is still taking sign-ups so even if his clan is not in the event the mere fact that his clan may join the event if things change gives him the right to post suggestions or concerns in relation to this event.
2) There is nothing saying that because one is not involved in this event they cannot try to make it better for those who are involved. I don't see you posting this about any of the other people who have posted here when they are not involved in the event. Hell, there was even a player or came in here and offered his opinion who is not even in a clan and who as stated he doesn't wish to be in a clan and I don't see you telling any of these people to leave unless they sign up.

Also it is not up to an individual player within a clan what event's, challenges, etc they join but the entire clan that decides these things, at least for most clans. Beyond that, most clans don't sign up and then back out at the last second if the event doesn't change to what they want too, they sign up if it is something they want to do.

Food For Thought

[WPBRJ]

leehar i dont want to sound bad but you have not signed up to this tourney yet. plz either sign up or shut up. your opinion would count if you joined and im sure your opinion would be disscused if you did. but at present you have not put your name forward for this. so as a clan that is not participating it has nothing to do with you.

what i mean by this is as follows.

you were not happy with one thing. so dj changed it did you sign up then nooooo. you complained about something else. instead of this join then comment and when it is about to start if you are not happy with the settings pull out. you have not commited to this event commite the say your thoughts.

Your logic is extremely flawed for a few reasons

1) This is still taking sign-ups so even if his clan is not in the event the mere fact that his clan may join the event if things change gives him the right to post suggestions or concerns in relation to this event.
2) There is nothing saying that because one is not involved in this event they cannot try to make it better for those who are involved. I don't see you posting this about any of the other people who have posted here when they are not involved in the event. Hell, there was even a player or came in here and offered his opinion who is not even in a clan and who as stated he doesn't wish to be in a clan and I don't see you telling any of these people to leave unless they sign up.

Also it is not up to an individual player within a clan what event's, challenges, etc they join but the entire clan that decides these things, at least for most clans. Beyond that, most clans don't sign up and then back out at the last second if the event doesn't change to what they want too, they sign up if it is something they want to do.

Food For Thought

ok ljax said way better than me

[Chuuuuck]

leehar i dont want to sound bad but you have not signed up to this tourney yet. plz either sign up or shut up. your opinion would count if you joined and im sure your opinion would be disscused if you did. but at present you have not put your name forward for this. so as a clan that is not participating it has nothing to do with you.

what i mean by this is as follows.

you were not happy with one thing. so dj changed it did you sign up then nooooo. you complained about something else. instead of this join then comment and when it is about to start if you are not happy with the settings pull out. you have not commited to this event commite the say your thoughts.

Your logic is extremely flawed for a few reasons

1) This is still taking sign-ups so even if his clan is not in the event the mere fact that his clan may join the event if things change gives him the right to post suggestions or concerns in relation to this event.
2) There is nothing saying that because one is not involved in this event they cannot try to make it better for those who are involved. I don't see you posting this about any of the other people who have posted here when they are not involved in the event. Hell, there was even a player or came in here and offered his opinion who is not even in a clan and who as stated he doesn't wish to be in a clan and I don't see you telling any of these people to leave unless they sign up.

Also it is not up to an individual player within a clan what event's, challenges, etc they join but the entire clan that decides these things, at least for most clans. Beyond that, most clans don't sign up and then back out at the last second if the event doesn't change to what they want too, they sign up if it is something they want to do.

Food For Thought

I have learned that the best way to deal with eddie's posts is to foe and move on. To be honest, I hate seeing his posts quoted because then it forces me to read them. And every time that happens, I think to myself, "wow, this guy really is dumber than a box of rocks" and it reinforces the reasons that I have him foed.

If no one even acknowledged his posts, they would probably become less and less.

[eddie2]

you are missing what i was saying bogangod. with comments like this

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...

why should the event be adapted to what nemisis would like when they can't say if they will or will not participate. fair enough if they want to participate then join in the discussion about how you want things. but you have got to commit that you will join. not change something on the words of in 2 minds about joining.

[ljex]

you are missing what i was saying bogangod. with comments like this

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...

why should the event be adapted to what nemisis would like when they can't say if they will or will not participate. fair enough if they want to participate then join in the discussion about how you want things. but you have got to commit that you will join. not change something on the words of in 2 minds about joining.

I'm guessing you didn't bother to read my earlier post but because I happen to have a shit ton of time on my hands today i will try to explain this to you as simple as possible.

Clans do not join events when the event has rules or conditions that they do not want to play with in the hopes that they can then change those rules conditions before the start of the event and then choose to bow out if those things don't change. That's really not that hard is it?

Now further, Lehar as an individual still has the right to try and make this a better event for all participating clans even if his clan is not participating.

I think I did all of this more justice with a more worthy explanation in my earlier post but i was trying to keep this one as simple as possible so eddie can understand why he is wrong. If he doesn't bother to respond and continues posting completely illogical crap we can assume one of a few things.

1) He has a huge ego and still thinks he is right
2) He has the biggest case of selective hearing (in this case reading) known to all species of life
3) He isn't able to comprehend simple logic or the notion that not everyone is of the same opinion of him with regards to ease of abandoning something because you didn't get your way.

[eddie2]

no ljex you have no logic about what i am meaning. at present there are some clans that have signed up. meaning they were happy with what the order was. maybe it is the way leehars post was. he could of worded it a bit better. but what you are literally saying above is that for example. thota v tofu in a challenge i have no part in that but can go in saying they should change this setting or that setting. what i was getting at is that leehar has stated even if the changes happen he might not still join which i think is wrong because clans have already accepted this challenge. if leehar had of said they are not happy with certain rules of it but would be interested in joining when corrected then fair enough.

[Teflon Kris]

The FA cup is essentially all the 2nd tier of soccer and the teams that did not make or did not progress in the Champions league.

The FA Cup has pretty much nothing to do with 2nd tier or Champions League - all English teams from levels 1 to 11 can compete in the FA Cup. Level 11 teams may have no crowd facilities and therefore be considered grassroots (although levels go through to 23 in some regions - see here for full details of the 23 levels or tiers). There are 763 teams entering for 2011-12, from the top tier downwards, listed here. As you can see Liverpool, Trafford FC of Old Toilet, Chelsea and other internationally-recognised teams with Champions league pedigree will be playing. The teams from lower tiers start at the beginning, whilst professional teams get byes, as revealed here. Premier league (top tier teams) enter in the "third round proper" at the beginning of Jan 2012.

The cups and extras are really just money makers based on huge TV rights.

The FA Cup, League Cup and three different European Cups all existed before TV Rights became an issue, in fact before colour TV.

The reason they exist is because teams and fans enjoy playing and watching them.

At grassroots level, football teams play leagues and several cup competitions too.

The TV Rights you may be thinking of are the adaptations of the European Cup into the Champions League and the combining of the European Cup Winner's Cup and UEFA Cup into the Europa Cup.

Specifically, you may be thinking of the Europa League. This is essentially a second-tier tournament at Euopean level and has this season been re-vamped again to involve more league stages and matches. Traditionally, winners of this tournament were strong teams having had a hiccup in a previous season whereby they didn't qualify for the top tier tournament (European Cup / Champions League). However, mumblings amongst many teams, and the degree of squad rotation seen by aspitring top tier teams in this competition suggests it is rarely considered a serious goal and, with the extra games now involve, the bigger teams will undoubtedly concentrate their resources on domestic tournaments (and champions league qualification for the following season).

A few years ago a Trafford FC of Old Toilet got in a lot of bother with their, and other fans, for not entering the FA Cup due to tiredness after playing a TV Rights World Club Cup. Even manager Taggart (the Honorable Knight of lies and cheating) admitted this was a mistake and has never dared pull out of the tournament since.



My intention was for the analogy to mean that ACC is a tournament for clans of all levels, as long as they are organised. The byes in my original idea (which I have now reduced) were about bringing higher-ranked clans at a later stage , giving them a shorter season in the competition and creating competition amongst the lower-ranked clans early on. In the FA-cup amateur teams would traditionally battle through rounds in the first half of the fottie season, and top level teams in the second half, meaning similar fixtures demands all round. My idea was probably along the lines of ijex's point earlier - however, I can understand CDs reluctance to accept many byes, after all, this isn't a tournament of 763 teams, with 44 higher-level teams getting through to the later rounds. At our smaller level, the bye system may may it too easy for higher-ranking clans. I can see the debate continuing, but this tournament will run with the level of byes now stated and sicussed with CDs (no more than 1 round of byes). Anyone interested in continuing the debate may wish to start a seperate discussion thread with a view towards a second season next summer.



I hope the tournament doesn't turn-out to be more analogous to the Europa League (i.e. a 3-tier tournament system of CC - ACC - NC), but if it does then so be it. I wouldn't be surprised if sign-ups mean that the tournament is predominently middle-tier , with some enthusiastic and competitive lower and higher-ranking clans providing a little overlap.



Perhaps we should end the analogy there though as football involves one or two 90 minute matches per week (occassionally 3) for athletes covering up to 10KM per match, whereas clan ties can last up to a month.

Here endeth my football lesson.

[Qwert]

dj teflon are host of these event,so i dont see why need to disscus abouth everything here-rules are clear and every clan who join ,accept these rules.

[FarangDemon]

Eddie, I think you should stop trying to stifle productive posters and accept that you were wrong to do so. It should be obvious that the process of sounding out and addressing the concerns of possible participants would likely lead to increased participation. This is the goal I believe. Even if leehar or leehar's clan would not join no matter what, he may still have valid concerns that, if addressed, would result in increased participation from other clans. So I think it's best to attack the individual arguments of a person, if you disagree with those arguments, rather than attempt to silence the poster. I think silencing individuals should be advocated only if the individual has clearly shown that their posts are unproductive and unabated, which seems to be your case.

I'll also take the opportunity to repeat something I had stated in my last post here that nobody responded to. I have an idea that might encourage more clans to participate. I could devise a separate ranking, using the exact same formula I'm currently using, that would only include clans that engage in a minimum set of events (like CC, CL, ACC for example). So I'd provide two rankings - one containing all clans, one containing only those clans that have participated in a certain minimum set of events. This way we recognize excellence in the clans that pick and choose relatively fewer events/battles so they can concentrate a lot on each game AND we can also recognize excellence among clans that engage in many events and wars at once.

Maybe the discussion of this idea would better take place in my clan ranking thread - but I mention this idea here because this could encourage a clan that would not be able to make it to the top of the traditional scoreboard to want to participate in this event. They might elect to participate in ACC in the hopes of placing high on the alternate scoreboard, thinking they could beat out all the clans which sign up for every event (CC, CL, ACC).

[Teflon Kris]

I like your idea although it would be tricky to work out as a team entering some tournaments and playing several clans wars would surely merit relatively favorable scoring, so bringing clan war participation in would be desirable for most. This then gets complicated when you consider that clans knocked out of tournaments early have more time for clan wars (and other tournaments). If you can factor all of that in then you have an interesting ranking system.

[pearljamrox2]

Dynasty will play.

Contacts are pearljamrox2 and WPBRJ

[benga]

OSA are in
benga and bigpash

[maasman]

Nemesis shall play.

Put leehar for the secondary, though I doubt you'll need it.

[Dako]

TOFU in.

[BoganGod]

Thanks TOFU and Nemesis for joining. I know how much time DJ has put into this. To have two more top 12clans aboard. Bringing the clan total up to 15 is great. It is surprising how many "top" clans lack the courage to take part in something new. Innovation and/or specialization or face extinction is one of the lovely little evolutionary rules. A lot of clans that refuse to change/try something new, are forgetting that often the rot starts from the top down.

[LFAW]

I will see if I can mobilise The Legion.

Not promising anything though x

[angola]

AOC is discussing it.

We shall see.

[josko.ri]

It is surprising how many "top" clans lack the courage to take part in something new. Innovation and/or specialization or face extinction is one of the lovely little evolutionary rules. A lot of clans that refuse to change/try something new, are forgetting that often the rot starts from the top down.

it is surprising how it is easy to call someone with "lack of courage" ettiquette without real basis. why it is so hard to understand that it can be many other reasons to not participate, not only "lack of courage" like:

1. not wishing to have 2 simultaneous challenges. why BoFM didnt play 2 challenges simultaneously when you faced TOFU in CC2? why you start war vs Legion now and didnt start it at the same time when you played vs TOFU? was it "lack of courage" from BoFM or was it wish to being focused on only one war that you played at that time? is it so hard to understand that not every clan is capable (limited number of clan members) or just their members wish to have limited number of ongoing games, so playing 2 challenges at the same time would overlap their wished ongoing game number? for "top" clans, which can possibly reach finals of CC2, it can easy happen to have 3 ongoing challenges soon if they sign up, CC2, CL4, and newcomers cup. so isnt it prety unfair to call them with "lack of courage" ettiquete because they try to avoid possibly having 3 challenges simultaneously soon?
I doubt (maybe I am wrong?) that your clan ever had 2 challenges simultaneously, and now you use your right to judge "top" clans because they want to aviod possibly having 3 simultaneous challenges. pretty low blow from you when you even do not know reasons why "top" clans dont sign up.

2. maybe "top" clans dont like format of the Cup. when someone going to sign up for some tournament, he will choose the one which has the best format in his opinion and will not choose the one which doesnt have good format. I very appreciate effort that DJ Teflon put in organizing this, but that doesnt mean I need to like every part of format he choose.

3. I very understand that clans who are already eliminated from CCup2 currently doesnt have any ongoing competition, and the fact that CL4 will not come soon made wish for that clans to organize something which will fill the lack of competitive tournaments before beginning of CL4. so from that side of wiew I very support this Cup. but please, then you also may understand that there are many clans which doesnt need additional competition as one ongoing 61 game clan war is enough for them, and it does nothing to do with "lack of courage".

what I think are bad parts of the format of this cup?

A round limit of 30 rounds (for singles and doubles) and 25 rounds (for trips and quads) will be set - there will be no result if there is no winner within the limit. It is anticipated that this will only occur extremely rarely and is only introduced to prevent a stalemate-game from holding the tournament up.

round limit and draw result if round limit is overlapped. so players put huge effort to play 25 rounds (100 turns in quads) and then all their effort made would be void? if you check "top" clans home games, I dont think there are clan who doesnt choose hive, Conquerman or FNA like their home map. setting up the rule which can delete all their effort made in those games during 100 turns (quads) for sure will not make them willing to sign in.

Player Usage

Individual players can play a maximum of 30% of games (counting a 1v1 bout as 1 game).
Individual players can only play in one 1 v 1 bout per round.

so it was many complaining that we should try to show depth of a clan more, not that only top players from a clan play wars. and then it is rule which increases number of games that each clan member can play (from 25% CC2 to 30% NC). you have to notice, it will be more than 30% games allowed to play per one member in team games because of other rule that one player can play in only one 1v1 per round. so if one player can play 1/8 (12,5%) 1v1 games, that means he can play more than 30% team games, to have total of 30% games played.

Nuclear spoils games are only allowed in 1 v 1 and doubles games. Unlimited reinforcements are only allowed in triples and quadruples games.

I dont see any reason why it is limited using of nukes and unlimited according to gametypes. you may think that unlimited in doubles are lot of luck for 1st playing team, but if some clan choose to have their home game with lot of luck involved, let it be so (it will only decrease their possible advantage in their home map, because something that could be chosen like map where they have advantage is now something where away team can have huge advantage by getting 1st turn). it exists many reasons why someone like to play for example doubles unlimited game.

p.s. all this is just my personal opinion, it is in any way not stating opinion from KORT.

[sonicsteve]

Feeling touchy.

[QoH]

The New Crusade (TNC) would like in. Member list TBD.
First contact: tokle
Second contact: Blackknight_6
Third contact: QoH