Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

[cairnswk]

1588 - Spanish Armada


Draft: 6/7/11
Gameplay Stamp: 28/8/12
Graphics Stamped: 26/12/12
XML Stamped 22/7/13
Beta 14/8/13

Map Name: 1588 - Spanish Armada
Mapmaker: cairnswk
XML: nolefan5311

Number of Territories: 229, starting positions 48 (possibility for 12 players of 4 each)
Special Features: Classic gameplay, Bombardments, Ranged Attacks, Starting Neutrals
Fonts: Serifa BT (map) , Book Antiqua (legend), Monotype Corsiva (Title, Headings, Annotations)
Software: Fireworks CS3, text - Illustrator CS3
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:It is a classic battle that deserves a place on this site.

show

Map Size:As of V31 -
Small - 920W x 775H:
Large - 1023W x 864H:

Current V45 Small

Click image to enlarge.

show: Test 88s for V39 xml

show: Test 888s for V39 xml

Version 42 with neutrals and start positions (propsed)

show: CB Versions

show: Previous Versions

Nomeclature
Beacons -> Beacon Penzance, Beacon Eddystone, Beacon Plymouth etc....
Treasury -> Sir Martin Frobisher M1, Sir Martin Frobisher T1, Sir Martin Frobisher T3, Sir Martin Frobisher T4, Sir Martin Frobisher T5
Command Vessels -> Santa Ana Stern, Santa Ana Bow
Land Bases -> Truro LB, Penzance LB, etc, with exception of LB Army Brussel
Supply Ships -> SS Banzana, SS David etc.


Gameplay:
Players naturally battle conquer neutrals to activate bonuses, and then can fight over battle grounds as marked in the bonus section.
A feature of gameplay for any player starting on the British areas is the lighting of the land beacons, and subsequent gaining of the bonuses. Beacons can be lit only from open-top squares or from one-way arrows from another beacon.

• Impassable are the blue areas of sea as marked; trees, and non-white sections of the command vessels.
• SS = Supply Ship
• LB = Land Base
• LA - Land Army
• M = Monarch
• T = Treasury
• The Treasury squares are named based on the owner (shield at top of column) and level of treasury conquered i.e. Medrano +1T,+3T,+4T,+5T
• The Monarch square is named based on the owner (shield at top of column) and +1M
• All other vessels and territories have their own names - classic style, with Command Vessels occupying two territories Bow and Stern
• Each player starts with:
  
  a Monarch territory e.g. Medrano +1M
  a Supply Ship or Supply Base e.g. SS Bazana
  Captaincy of one half of a Command Vessel e.g. Capitania Bow
  and one other ship e.g. Diana
  
• Each player's Monarch territory can assault sideways to build-up their treasury.
• Treasury units (armies) can assault (and fort):
  
  sideways one-way (to build bonuses)
  from any treasury square to same player's Command Vessel (both Bow and Stern)
  from any treasury square to same player's Supply Ship
  from any treausry square to same player's Land Base (if applicable)
  
• Each Command Vessel:
  
  must hold both Bow and Stern of each vessel to gain that Bonus
  from both Bow and Stern, can assault adjacent regions any player's Monarch square
  
• The Losing Condition: Players failing to hold any non-treasury region and either bow or stern of a Command Ship will be eliminated
  
• Starting Numbers:
  
  There are 229 (i think from preliminary xml count) territories on this map - outside the golden number range.
  However, most of these will start neutral, with the exception of the starting territories.
  Starting Neutrals: 181
  On the Monarch and Treasury seection, neutrals are 6,5,7,8,9 respectively - these once conquered provide the armies (money) to bolster your conquering abilities.
  On the map, neutrals are mostly 1, with the exception of 2s to help balance gameplay by making it harder to conquer command ships early in the game.
  
  Starting positions:48
  2P-16 / 7P-4
  3P-16 / 8P-4
  4P-12 / 9P-4
  5P-8 / 10P-4
  6P-8 / 11P-4
  12P-4
  
  There are 4 starting territories per player and there is a range of 12 players on this map.
  
  

Aims/design style: The influence for this map was to enhance the sea warfare maps (for those fans/players) on CC. I also have a great interest in this period of English history which is being expanded while i discover the influences of the French Calvinists and the Massacre at Paris of St Batholomew's Day. The design is somewhat already in place with the heavy English Tudor border featuring the English Rose in wood colours. With the exception of the blue sea, all colours should revolve around those from the border.

Versions & Initial Draft:
Only Versions 2,5, 7 and 9 are available before re-design.

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[grifftron]

You make it look so easy... great start! Interesting to see what some will say about using the squares but it think its great.

-griff

[Victor Sullivan]

I like the concept, but I see many flaws...

• Overall, the map is quite bland in gameplay. There aren't any substantial bonuses, aside from the simple territory bonus and the weak beacon bonus. The only real gameplay feature here is the attack routes.
• For the attack routes, no need to have an elaborate explanation like yours, just say each square can attack with range 2, it's the same thing
• I noticed you put "Bombardments - To be discussed" on the map. I'm wondering if maybe you could do something like "squares assault with range 1 and bombard with range 2" so it's like, you can only sail into an adjacent square, but you can fire your cannons farther.
• Could you elaborate on the starting positions? Because, if everyone starts in the same general place, people aren't going to venture out into the open, especially if there's no compensation for doing so. People will likely just go for the early elimination.
• The beacons seem slightly out of place due to the lack of gameplay elsewhere, but I see their legitimacy. The bonus is awful small for it to be worth it, since there's no way out of the chain of one-ways (or so I've understood it to be) all troops spent on that chain are lost, essentially. I suggest making it a +X per Y beacons lit. So, I'm thinking +1 per 2, +7 for all. If you'd prefer it to be lower, you could do +1 per 3, +5 for all, as well.
• Is there supposed to be a difference between the white-outlined blue squares, the orange-outlined blue territories, and the orange-outlined orange territories?
• I'm not sure either objective you've listed will necessarily work, I'm afraid. I just don't see how they could work as it stands.

To summarize my thoughts, I think it needs a lot of work, but it has a lot of potential.

-Sully

[theBastard]

I like the idea (also your Battle of Traffalgar).

- what about to add to English Channel any ships? the square (water) could assault only adjacent squares. the ships (only Spanish?) could assault up to two squares and bombardments another ship.

- there were also some battles in Channel, so they can add any bonus like Beacons...?

- what about Isles in Channel? as impassable...

[cairnswk]

....- what about Isles in Channel? as impassable...

which isles are you referrring to tB?

[cairnswk]

I like the concept, but I see many flaws...
...
-Sully

Sully, i'm examining your list and working on some of those...i'll post something more substantial later.

[theBastard]

[
which isles are you referrring to tB?

error your map does not cover area with isles...

[cairnswk]

[
which isles are you referrring to tB?

error your map does not cover area with isles...

no worries tB

[cairnswk]

You make it look so easy... great start! Interesting to see what some will say about using the squares but it think its great.

-griff

Thanks grifftron.

[cairnswk]

I like the concept, but I see many flaws...

• Overall, the map is quite bland in gameplay. There aren't any substantial bonuses, aside from the simple territory bonus and the weak beacon bonus. The only real gameplay feature here is the attack routes.
• For the attack routes, no need to have an elaborate explanation like yours, just say each square can attack with range 2, it's the same thing

thanks Sully for some ideas.
Not perfect yet, but i have added some supply ships, lead vessels, and battles for bonuses.
The attack route thing i'd prefer to leave as a graphic, just so that i am not asked for it later. Perhaps i'll need to do one for the bombardments also later.

I noticed you put "Bombardments - To be discussed" on the map. I'm wondering if maybe you could do something like "squares assault with range 1 and bombard with range 2" so it's like, you can only sail into an adjacent square, but you can fire your cannons farther.

That's on the map now, but may need adjusting later.

Could you elaborate on the starting positions? Because, if everyone starts in the same general place, people aren't going to venture out into the open, especially if there's no compensation for doing so. People will likely just go for the early elimination.

Starting positions...as always up for grabs. Now there are some bonuses on the sea that would improve movement incentive.
Land bonuses need placement, and i'm thinking resources scattered throughout the land for that...to be added.

The beacons seem slightly out of place due to the lack of gameplay elsewhere, but I see their legitimacy. The bonus is awful small for it to be worth it, since there's no way out of the chain of one-ways (or so I've understood it to be) all troops spent on that chain are lost, essentially. I suggest making it a +X per Y beacons lit. So, I'm thinking +1 per 2, +7 for all. If you'd prefer it to be lower, you could do +1 per 3, +5 for all, as well.

Changed. I think we can discuss the x for y lit amount later again, but for now it is there.

Is there supposed to be a difference between the white-outlined blue squares, the orange-outlined blue territories, and the orange-outlined orange territories?

Yes, that is stated now what they are...i am thinking there could be a bonus structure associated wth them also, you know 15 for +5 or something similar.

I'm not sure either objective you've listed will necessarily work, I'm afraid. I just don't see how they could work as it stands.

To summarize my thoughts, I think it needs a lot of work, but it has a lot of potential.
-Sully

The objective has been removed for now and left as Invade England. Perhaps it can be re-instated later, see what the people think.

Thanks for your initial comments. Great assistance!

[cairnswk]

I like the idea (also your Battle of Traffalgar).

- what about to add to English Channel any ships? the square (water) could assault only adjacent squares. the ships (only Spanish?) could assault up to two squares and bombardments another ship.

- there were also some battles in Channel, so they can add any bonus like Beacons...?

- what about Isles in Channel? as impassable...

Thanks tB...
Some ships have been added as bonuses to the Channel. Assault adjacent squares is there, but bombardment for 2 is there also.
The battles have also been addded. Thanks for great ideas.

[theBastard]

Thanks tB...
Some ships have been added as bonuses to the Channel. Assault adjacent squares is there, but bombardment for 2 is there also.
The battles have also been addded. Thanks for great ideas.

looking good.

- maybe battle sites are a little too big?
- maybe add one more named ship and delete supply ships?
- what about when only ships (squares of ships) could bombardment for 2?

[pamoa]

Could you elaborate on the starting positions? Because, if everyone starts in the same general place, people aren't going to venture out into the open, especially if there's no compensation for doing so. People will likely just go for the early elimination.

Starting positions...as always up for grabs. Now there are some bonuses on the sea that would improve movement incentive.
Land bonuses need placement, and i'm thinking resources scattered throughout the land for that...to be added.

hi cairnswk
you choose a nice bit of history here
initial graphics great
theme: you choose to put the accent on the last part of the sea campaign not just the battle which is a very original approach
but your gameplay isn't going with it
you try a similar two side gameplay as in arms race but there you have the mean to cross the gap between the two part (+60 bonus)
and the way to reach the other side is relatively short compared to your map
maybe you should rethink your starting position set-up
what about Spanish ships and maybe also some British land territories behind the battle zones
on the other hand I know you are wishing to keep some historical time line...?

[cairnswk]

hi cairnswk
you choose a nice bit of history here
initial graphics great

thanks pamoa

theme: you choose to put the accent on the last part of the sea campaign not just the battle which is a very original approach
but your gameplay isn't going with it
you try a similar two side gameplay as in arms race but there you have the mean to cross the gap between the two part (+60 bonus)
and the way to reach the other side is relatively short compared to your map
maybe you should rethink your starting position set-up
what about Spanish ships and maybe also some British land territories behind the battle zones
on the other hand I know you are wishing to keep some historical time line...?

Pamoa, i've done this image to try to explain what i was hoping to achieve with gameplay.
yes i want to achieve some historical time line...in particular the spanish should be able to work their way towards a goal of sorts where San Martin is, and that is why i have given such a broad avenue for whoever start down south to move through.
Yes, i will have some british bonuses in there on England, just have to do some research on that.
Also, i think perhaps a couple more small Spanish vessel bonuses would not go astray.
Can you explain the "gap between the two parts" bit in your previous post a bit further please. I'm think i am only getting part of that.
Also do you have some suggestions for the starting postiions.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

I'm thinking of having "Faith" metres on this map...Catholic as opposed to Anglican...perfect for the period.
Is this religious facet allowed in CC?

[Industrial Helix]

I feel like this one belongs over here. Glad to see someone is tryingto translate naval warfare into a CC map. I'll give it a more thorough look tonight.

[cairnswk]

I feel like this one belongs over here. Glad to see someone is tryingto translate naval warfare into a CC map. I'll give it a more thorough look tonight.

iH, can you wait until i have the newest version done shortly.
Thanks for dropping in.

[cairnswk]

I feel like this one belongs over here. Glad to see someone is tryingto translate naval warfare into a CC map. I'll give it a more thorough look tonight.

IH, and others, knock your socks off.

New V4. with new gameplay (as noted in front notes)
Players will start in the Treasury for each side. You can move up in the treasury to top to earn maximum bonus, (this slows the assaults at the start, and thus gains you extra armies if you desire such) or you can assault out of the treasury (with your current bonuses) from any point in your column to the relevent side's supply ships/land base. From there, it's all up to you how you proceed with gaining bonuses and conqeuring the map.
Assault movement is in any direction one square.
Bombardments are 2 squares in any direction from water-based sqaures only.
Various bonuses are available for ships and battles and Fort Tilbury where Elizabeth had gathered an army.

Click image to enlarge.

[MrBenn]

Hi cairns, you've made a great start here - reminds me of how I first felt with your early Das Schloss drafts!

The treasury starts/bonuses.... I'm not too sure how the "need/earn" bit relates to a bonus? As for the supply ships/land bases - would it be easier to make each treasury correspnd to a command vessel - so P12 could link to Duque Medina Sedonia, and so on.

I would prefer the beacons bonus to be something like +1/2 per 3 consecutive beacons (which is incredibly easy to do in the xml, by the way). I understand the desire to have them starting at Lands End, but for gameplay purposes I think it would be better to make them 2-way attacks (ie if the fleet were first seen at Southampton they would have lit the beacon there - they would not have sent a runner to Lands End )

Please could you put a tiny lighthouse at Beachy Head (you have an empty space at F22 to do so) - just google Beach Head lighthouse to see what it looks like... that would make me very happy

It would be beneficial if there were some small numerals along the bottom edge of the map to correspond to the columns. I don;t think you need to do each one, but perhaps every 5 would be OK.. just to make it easier to find the corresponding grid reference.

[cairnswk]

Hi cairns, you've made a great start here - reminds me of how I first felt with your early Das Schloss drafts!
...
Please could you put a tiny lighthouse at Beachy Head (you have an empty space at F22 to do so) - just google Beach Head lighthouse to see what it looks like... that would make me very happy

It would be beneficial if there were some small numerals along the bottom edge of the map to correspond to the columns. I don;t think you need to do each one, but perhaps every 5 would be OK.. just to make it easier to find the corresponding grid reference.

thanks MrBenn.
Those above have already been done on the next version. the lighhouse looks quite good, i'm sure you'll be pleased.
To think of that also, is there any other little "obstructions" in the channel that could be used?
Thanks for you other thoughts, i'll see what the others have to add also.

[pamoa]

[quote="MrBenn"The treasury starts/bonuses.... I'm not too sure how the "need/earn" bit relates to a bonus? As for the supply ships/land bases - would it be easier to make each treasury correspnd to a command vessel - so P12 could link to Duque Medina Sedonia, and so on.[/quote]

yes I feel else it would be better pile up and wait for someone stupid enough to spend his armies attacking neutral territories and then wipe him out

second very important point you should be able to kill those starting territories else it is an unendable map like Das Schloss was initially

btw if you go that way of unique starting position also look at King's court they also had a hell of gameplay adjustment to do

go cairns go

[DiM]

i see you have supply ships even on land. so maybe rename those terits to supply centres?

also i have no idea where ft tilbury is. i mean if i look at the legend i see it is a 4square terit but when i look at the actual map i see the name but no terits are highlighted

[cairnswk]

The treasury starts/bonuses.... I'm not too sure how the "need/earn" bit relates to a bonus? As for the supply ships/land bases - would it be easier to make each treasury correspnd to a command vessel - so P12 could link to Duque Medina Sedonia, and so on.

yes I feel else it would be better pile up and wait for someone stupid enough to spend his armies attacking neutral territories and then wipe him out

second very important point you should be able to kill those starting territories else it is an unendable map like Das Schloss was initially

btw if you go that way of unique starting position also look at King's court they also had a hell of gameplay adjustment to do

go cairns go

Bugger, OK, i get the idea now with what MrBenn is saying about assualting to an individual vessel from the treasury. thanks pamoa for pointing that out to me.

as for killing the treasury....
1. perhaps opposing treasuries could be assaulted by any commander positions
2. t'would be better if those treasury positions were killer neutrals after a number of turns, although i don't know if that capability is in the current xml.

i see you have supply ships even on land. so maybe rename those terits to supply centres?

also i have no idea where ft tilbury is. i mean if i look at the legend i see it is a 4square terit but when i look at the actual map i see the name but no terits are highlighted

Supply centres...done next version
ft tilbury, mmmm seems the indicator has got lost among the layers, i'll fix it.
thanks Dim.

[Victor Sullivan]

Firstly, loving the new draft Secondly...

The treasury starts/bonuses.... I'm not too sure how the "need/earn" bit relates to a bonus? As for the supply ships/land bases - would it be easier to make each treasury correspnd to a command vessel - so P12 could link to Duque Medina Sedonia, and so on.

yes I feel else it would be better pile up and wait for someone stupid enough to spend his armies attacking neutral territories and then wipe him out

second very important point you should be able to kill those starting territories else it is an unendable map like Das Schloss was initially

btw if you go that way of unique starting position also look at King's court they also had a hell of gameplay adjustment to do

go cairns go

Bugger, OK, i get the idea now with what MrBenn is saying about assualting to an individual vessel from the treasury. thanks pamoa for pointing that out to me.

as for killing the treasury....
1. perhaps opposing treasuries could be assaulted by any commander positions
2. t'would be better if those treasury positions were killer neutrals after a number of turns, although i don't know if that capability is in the current xml.

Maybe losing conditions would work here? If you had players start out with more than just the treasury territories, you could set the non-treasury territories as losing conditions (meaning you must hold at least one non-treasury territory or you're eliminated). That way, you need not have something assault the treasury if you decide you don't want anything to. Sadly, point 2 as you described is not possible with the current XML Along with this, are players able to assault sideways/east-west in the treasuries? I would think not, but I figured I'd ask.

Thirdly, make sure your squares are at least 20 pixels high, as the 88s are around 10 pixels high, and I'll likely have to alternate the coordinates, as you have for the S's and whatnot.

Fourthly, I don't understand which squares are single ships.

-Sully

[cairnswk]

...
Maybe losing conditions would work here? If you had players start out with more than just the treasury territories, you could set the non-treasury territories as losing conditions (meaning you must hold at least one non-treasury territory or you're eliminated). That way, you need not have something assault the treasury if you decide you don't want anything to.

I knew i needed a good person on the job.
That's a great idea Sully, for not assaulting the treasury, but because at present i have everyone starting on the treasury, doesn't that mean the losing condition comes into play automatically right at the very start of the game when no-one has a non-treasury territory anyway.

Sadly, point 2 as you described is not possible with the current XML

Along with this, are players able to assault sideways/east-west in the treasuries? I would think not, but I figured I'd ask.

no -> i guess i need to put that into the script

Thirdly, make sure your squares are at least 20 pixels high, as the 88s are around 10 pixels high, and I'll likely have to alternate the coordinates, as you have for the S's and whatnot.

Squares are 24 pixels square.
i've just checked an existing game with the numbers and letters turned on...
Numbers appear to be 12 pixels high, add the letter y g p in front and you blow out to 15 pixels high.
That why i have them alternating upper and lower in the columns.

Fourthly, I don't understand which squares are single ships.

Top left of legend...although i do need to possibly change that script....perhaps Single Ships (on top to indicate a single square) with Hold 9 for + 2 (underneath)

Thanks.