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Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed May 25, 2011 4:58 pm

SirSebstar wrote:pff, if i am sitting for someone, 24 hours is a jeopardy.. I check once a day mostly, so whatever i dont do not is not going to be done at all. Obviously in this case the delay in taking turns was the wait for information.. I can see this happen. I hope this means a new sitting tool gets installed before 2012..


That is a reasonable approach to account sitting if the person in question is incapable of taking their turns, for example if they went on vacation and don't have internet access. This should not be the standard approach to account sitting if you just have your clan mate's password for safety reasons.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Commander9 on Wed May 25, 2011 5:32 pm

As far as the case goes, I have to say that while I understand that some conditions could force to players to actually ask their clanmates to take their turn every now and then - if I had 3 exams in the same day and then I come back and see 20 open turns and I'm feeling completely drenched, I will not shy away from asking my clanmates to cover for me that day (or during the whole exam schedule). However, all of this seems to be of an overkill - there are way too many "special circumstances" happening. Hopefully admins will get a good look here and make a good decision.

@ Built-in babysitting system

I'm all for this - the sooner it is implemented the better.

Dako wrote:Also, getting exhausted, drunk, hungry, sleepy is not an exceptional case. Exceptional cases are - tsunami, wall fell down on your computer, granny dig out your internet cable, or your have been arrested by cops. Normal life excuses are not exceptional cases - because we all have them. Read the word exceptional - it means uncommon, rare. Is it exceptional to get tired, to sleep at the end of the day? Hell no.


Completely agree with the red part - some clans in fact force their players to only take their turns while drunk.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby tec805 on Wed May 25, 2011 6:17 pm

Commander9 wrote:Completely agree with the red part - some clans in fact force their players to only take their turns while drunk.


Are you saying some people play while they aren't drunk? :shock:

Seriously though, this isn't a black and white situation. Did the system get abused? Probably. Did they try to take advantage of the system initially? Probably not. Did it become too easy to just let things continue if it was working out in their favor? Yeah, probably so. Does joski have way too much time on his hands? ;)

Making this a public complaint is probably the best thing you could do if you are trying to sway public opinion. Will it change anything? :-s...
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby greenoaks on Wed May 25, 2011 7:02 pm

nippersean wrote:Not sure I understand this, but....
The question, and the problem is, if Josko doesn't tell his teammates what to do, (for whatever reason) then they simply let him take his turns for them.
So it's like he's playing multi's in Clan games? And his clanmates are agreeing that this is OK strategy?

that's what it sounds like to me

reptile wrote:Another question i have is... if most challenges there are limits to how many games each player can play.... how is this legal?

it would void any victory the clan had

my understanding of clan challenges is that they are a measure of a clan's skill (and luck) across all participents, not a measure of just one person's time spent on CC.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Rodion on Wed May 25, 2011 7:08 pm

I don't really know about the cases in which Josko sat for Moon, but most of the times he sat for me were clear cut cases of lack of internet connection. That leaves us with the 2 games (Charleston and Great Lakes) in which I was simply mentally exhausted (which is semantically different from "sleepy") and preferred to leave a few notes in game chat and sleep instead of actually playing. That's a judgement call, but occurrences like that in 2 games considering a 7-month period is something I consider exceptional. And that would be on me (if it somehow was considered illegal). I don't think Bones can hold anything against Josko, though. Josko just woke up, checked games, saw time dwindling in a turn I had to take, didn't see me online, checked my game chat notes and took the turn.

I didn't want to feed trolls in what is becoming a public spectacle, but I decided to post one more time just to correct some common misinterpretations I'm noticing. Every admin/mod that has competence to judge this case is invited to send me PMs asking for clarification on anything they deem necessary.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby nagerous on Wed May 25, 2011 7:20 pm

Commander9 wrote:As far as the case goes, I have to say that while I understand that some conditions could force to players to actually ask their clanmates to take their turn every now and then - if I had 3 exams in the same day and then I come back and see 20 open turns and I'm feeling completely drenched, I will not shy away from asking my clanmates to cover for me that day (or during the whole exam schedule). However, all of this seems to be of an overkill - there are way too many "special circumstances" happening. Hopefully admins will get a good look here and make a good decision.

@ Built-in babysitting system

I'm all for this - the sooner it is implemented the better.

Dako wrote:Also, getting exhausted, drunk, hungry, sleepy is not an exceptional case. Exceptional cases are - tsunami, wall fell down on your computer, granny dig out your internet cable, or your have been arrested by cops. Normal life excuses are not exceptional cases - because we all have them. Read the word exceptional - it means uncommon, rare. Is it exceptional to get tired, to sleep at the end of the day? Hell no.


Completely agree with the red part - some clans in fact force their players to only take their turns while drunk.


What if you're too smashed to type apart from slurring your cc password to a fellow mod on msn before passing out? My point is, sometimes real lifes get in the way - it is better to get someone to help you out in certain circumstances than miss.

All clans are ultimately guilty of this to a certain degree, if they see that one of their team mates will miss even if it just a case that the clanmate overslept or forgot about taking that particular turn they will jump in and help them out.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Wed May 25, 2011 7:39 pm

nagerous wrote:All clans are ultimately guilty of this to a certain degree, if they see that one of their team mates will miss even if it just a case that the clanmate overslept or forgot about taking that particular turn they will jump in and help them out.


That is not what this is about, though I would argue it to be abuse if it happens on a regular basis. This is about people who are fully capable of taking their turns but allowing someone else to take it for them.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby gameplayer on Wed May 25, 2011 7:40 pm

Rodion wrote:I don't really know about the cases in which Josko sat for Moon, but most of the times he sat for me were clear cut cases of lack of internet connection. That leaves us with the 2 games (Charleston and Great Lakes) in which I was simply mentally exhausted (which is semantically different from "sleepy") and preferred to leave a few notes in game chat and sleep instead of actually playing. That's a judgement call, but occurrences like that in 2 games considering a 7-month period is something I consider exceptional.

I count 8 in this calendar year, and those are only pulled from a small group of games. I would understand this happening one or two times, I know things can come up, but these are happening too frequently to be "exceptional". There is a definite trend of being active on the site during the 24 hour time frame and intentionally letting certain turns slide. Players have a responsibility to play their own turns unless it is unreasonable for them to access the site during the 24-hour period. When there is a clear trend of intentionally breaking this responsibility, the rules are being violated.

Bones2484 wrote:January 28th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 17:12 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8360118. However in other games, Rodion takes a many turns for himself on 1/28 a few hours before (many within 1 hour), for some reason allowing Josko to cover for him only in the above game: Game 8333260, Game 8331968, Game 8334625, Game 8350201, Game 8360064, Game 8360133, Game 8363351, Game 8363810, Game 8365083, Game 8390001, Game 8390005
March 24th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 5:09 with 2 hours left on the timer in Game 8708832. Rodion's posts end at 20:21 on March 23rd and pick back up again at 9:42 the morning of the 24th. Rodion has chosen to leave a turn for Josko to analyze/play when he had plenty of time to make the turn himself before heading off the site.
April 7th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 6:09 with 2 hours left on the timer in Game 8804946. Rodion's posts end at 22:43 late on the 6th and begin again at 8:56 on the 7th. Rodion has again chosen to leave a turn for Josko to analyze/play when he had plenty of time to make the turn himself.
April 11th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 15:05 with 5 hours left on the timer in Game 8804906. Rodion is active on the forums at 10:01 and 11:24 just a few hours before josko takes the turn for him.
April 19th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 14:55 with 5 minutes left on the timer in Game 8804906. Rodion is active in the forums playing a mafia game with multiple posts for an hour from 7:02 to 8:06 and returns to the forums at 17:06 after work. He chooses to not play this one game and allow josko to take the turn for him.
May 2nd, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 16:03 with 1 hour left on the timer in Game 8880866. However, Rodion is active in a tournament thread at 13:40 and a mafia game at 13:42 (3 hours before his turn expires). He again chooses to not play this one game and allow josko to take the turn for him.
May 7th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 2:29 with 6 hours left on the timer in Game 8957634. It is accepted that Rodion is sleeping at this time as his last forum post is on 5/6 at 23:29 and next post is on 5/7 at 9:54 and no games (other than the one in which josko takes a turn) are played during this timeframe. However, it is obvious that Rodion is not away for an extended period of time and was capable of taking his own turn.
May 10th, 2011
One turn was taken for Rodion at 7:49 with 30 minutes left on the timer in Game 8957634. Again, it is accepted that Rodion was sleeping as he freely admits that he is "Going to sleep now" in his last forum post on 5/9 at 22:36. Why does he not take the turn before going to bed? It is because josko has not yet told him what he should do on his turn, so Rodion goes to bed with full knowledge that josko will take the turn for him.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby nagerous on Wed May 25, 2011 7:40 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
nagerous wrote:All clans are ultimately guilty of this to a certain degree, if they see that one of their team mates will miss even if it just a case that the clanmate overslept or forgot about taking that particular turn they will jump in and help them out.


That is not what this is about, though I would argue it to be abuse if it happens on a regular basis. This is about people who are fully capable of taking their turns but allowing someone else to take it for them.


I understand, sorry for taking it off topic.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Wed May 25, 2011 7:48 pm

Rodion wrote:I didn't want to feed trolls in what is becoming a public spectacle.


I don't understand where the KORT "troll" calls are coming from? I haven't seen any flaming or baiting (especially compared to Blitz's thread), just discussion on whether or not this should be allowed in addition to some posts adding new games to the discussion.

If anyone brings the discussion off-topic or flames in any fashion, the mods are quick to shut things down in this forum... as they should. There's no reason for any of that to happen here, and hopefully everything continues to stay civil.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby lokisgal on Wed May 25, 2011 8:43 pm

I had a similar complaint in our war with Empire where lord voldemort was around taking turns then leaving a clan game to run short on time. Often he would log onto msn then suddenly his flag would change and his turn would be taken. I also have a widget which tells me when people are taking turns so that I could see when he was taking his turns and then watch his flag change back and forth between his home country and 2 others during the course of multiple days.
I went to the mods rather than file a report in here because they just become bitch fests. I know the mods can check IPs and see who is in whos account when. I was told I had to host images to them and this is blocked on my computers so I asked them to check ips. I also offered to email screen shots as attachments and was told that was not acceptable.

Its one thing if there is a some sort of mis understanding between a sitter and a sittee its another to take someones turns in a game multiple times. Once ok you had a mix up or didnt make it back and a clan member got worried and hoped in.
Twice its a hmm but after that well its just not right. It does bring up the question of why play team games then.

I was told by lovo that well he just didnt have time to come back and take that turn yet he took turns with much more time on them earlier in the day. I don't think you get pick and chose which turns you take and then leave others for your clan mates especially clan war games. As I said one time ok 2 times hmm 3 times well then why are you in that game to begin with?

There really needs to be a more strict sitting rule ESPECIALLY when it comes to clan wars..........
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby jackal31 on Wed May 25, 2011 8:49 pm

lokisgal wrote:I had a similar complaint in our war with Empire where lord voldemort was around taking turns then leaving a clan game to run short on time. Often he would log onto msn then suddenly his flag would change and his turn would be taken. I also have a widget which tells me when people are taking turns so that I could see when he was taking his turns and then watch his flag change back and forth between his home country and 2 others during the course of multiple days.
I went to the mods rather than file a report in here because they just become bitch fests. I know the mods can check IPs and see who is in whos account when. I was told I had to host images to them and this is blocked on my computers so I asked them to check ips. I also offered to email screen shots as attachments and was told that was not acceptable.

Its one thing if there is a some sort of mis understanding between a sitter and a sittee its another to take someones turns in a game multiple times. Once ok you had a mix up or didnt make it back and a clan member got worried and hoped in.
Twice its a hmm but after that well its just not right. It does bring up the question of why play team games then.

I was told by lovo that well he just didnt have time to come back and take that turn yet he took turns with much more time on them earlier in the day. I don't think you get pick and chose which turns you take and then leave others for your clan mates especially clan war games. As I said one time ok 2 times hmm 3 times well then why are you in that game to begin with?

There really needs to be a more strict sitting rule ESPECIALLY when it comes to clan wars..........


I am not jumping on the bandwagon here, but the highlighted part needs to be recognized in general. There really is no point in playing "team" games when people are playing for the other players in the group. Its really pointless.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Serbia on Wed May 25, 2011 9:12 pm

I think another common point of this thread is the value of making a public C&A report. Several people, most recently lokisgal, have said they went privately to the mods to avoid a spectacle, and were shot down. Just file the report. If you really believe there is an issue, make it public. A complaint made in private is easily dismissed; a complaint filed publicly will likely bring about a discussion, and if others have a similar complaint, often times they'll add to the conversation.

This forum has it's purposes, and should be utilized.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby drunkmonkey on Wed May 25, 2011 9:16 pm

The value of posting in a public thread is amazing. You get to make an accusation, and in no time guilt is assumed, while the thread snowballs from "josko sat for 2 players frequently" to "josko sits for the entire clan" to "no one makes a move without getting instructions from josko" to lokisgal's latest brainchild of "Why does KORT even bother playing team games, if josko makes all the moves?"

Yes, throwing this to the public forum was definitely the best course of action.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Tripitaka on Wed May 25, 2011 9:34 pm

Rodion wrote:Josko just woke up, checked games, saw time dwindling in a turn I had to take, didn't see me online, checked my game chat notes and took the turn.


There have been occasions where I've noticed a team mate in a particular game is running low on time and in every instance I've pmed them or tried to contact them in some other way to see if they are online and are aware of the situation, so I find it odd that Josko did not think to do the same in the case you mention above. It suggests that either there was a prior agreement for him to take the turn (which you deny) or that this is such a regular occurrence that he would not think twice about jumping in and taking another player's turn regardless of whether they are able to or not. Either way it is quite telling and does not fall within the current guidelines.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Serbia on Wed May 25, 2011 9:45 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:The value of posting in a public thread is amazing. You get to make an accusation, and in no time guilt is assumed, while the thread snowballs from "josko sat for 2 players frequently" to "josko sits for the entire clan" to "no one makes a move without getting instructions from josko" to lokisgal/jackal31's latest brainchild of "Why does KORT even bother playing team games, if josko makes all the moves?"

Yes, throwing this to the public forum was definitely the best course of action.


Public opinion is not going to sway the mods/admin in their decision making. For evidence on that, I'll present you the Commander62890 case. 90% of the people who posted in that thread posted to say it was impossible that Commander could be guilty, that he cares too much to point dump, that he is a great guy, competitive to a fault, and quite obviously innocent. The mods weighed the evidence, and found that it all pointed to Commander being, in fact, guilty. The final ruling reflects that.

What I'm saying is - this will NOT be a public opinion lynching of KORT, or anyone else. Evidence is being gathered and offered on both sides. There is dialogue, discussion, and commentary. There will be a ruling, that I trust will be fair (based on the recent high profile cases that have been decided in this forum recently). Going public, and creating a discussion, IS the way to go. In the end, this is about the betterment of CC and the CC experience, not a public lynching.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Bones2484 on Wed May 25, 2011 10:57 pm

To add to what Serbia said: If you feel like people are taking shots at KORT or Josko, please report the posts and let the moderators take care of it. Punishments were handed out left and right in the Blitz threads, and there's no reason to think they will treat this thread any differently if people step out of line. Just remember that spurious post reporting will also be punished.

And, if you think that nothing has been done wrong in this case... then why worry about this being posted publicly? If this type of play is allowed, the accused will be cleared of any wrongdoing and there will be no possibility of anyone bringing this up again in the future as you'll have precedent to point at when complaints are made.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed May 25, 2011 11:16 pm

Let's face a few truths here. I don't doubt for one minute that virtually everyone on this site has at one time or another sat for someone else - even to the point where the clock may have as much as 5-6 hours on it yet the player who should take the turn looks like being unavailable and there's no clan mate online to whom one can say "Hey, watch this game for xxxxxx would you coz the clock is low" and the sitter is about to log off and can't return for another eight hours say. Then it seems legitimate to actually cover that turn because in all likelihood it will be missed, yet everything was done (and considered) to find someone else to keep an eye on it.

In TOFU we keep an up-to-date thread listing all the clan members, alongside of which we list their appointed sitters (usually 2-3 players in different time zones). I'm down as a sitter for every clan member except those with mod privileges. This is in large part due to the fact that a) I'm trustworthy and reliable, b) I don't take on too many games so don't rush any turns in which I have to sit, c) my own password is only known to myself and so any info in my account is secure and d) I'm a sad old bastard who took early retirement and can spend 24/7 keeping tabs on things, thus I'm usually always available when a sitter is needed.

I have no doubt that when TOFU faced KORT and we had objections to the frequency of josko's sitting, KORT themselves probably felt the same was true of me - this being solely down to my availability over others. I can say though that the instances (over 60 games) were very infrequent, that everything was done to contact the player concerned, and that on no occasion was a complex move 'left for me to take' because the player was unaware of strategy or didn't know what to do. I can't run BOB, I don't/can't save snapshots and yet our clan play predominantly in fog. In fact I'm a sorry excuse for a sitter sometimes as I haven't a clue where things are on a map and I often find myself apologising for it. The upshot is though, we only sit when it is necessary - never to gain a tactical advantage - which is what this thread and allegation is all about. I've kicked enough players out of TOFU over the years for one of them to stand up and say "Hey, CoF plays all the moves etc etc" when in truth all I do is govern strategy in my own games - the others are left to the very capable members who I'm proud to have as clan mates and I don't think for one minute they'd appreciate my interference, otherwise what's the point? In our current challenge I think we've fielded about 20 players - not many clans do that - so we're all about sharing....both the burden and the joy....and the only time I stick an oar in is when someone screws up or misses a turn. It's anathema to me.

As far as impending absences go we run a thread for this very thing. Whether it's for 12 hours driving from Chicago to Washington or taking a week's holiday, everyone posts in this thread so we know what to expect. One thing we will never do is field a player in a game who is off (or due to go) on holiday - as per the Moonchild debacle when he was entered in 4 games which josko sat for him. How the heck is that fair or reasonable in a contest that has player quotas imposed on it?

I've probably said too much, or at least it may be considered too much 'off topic', but the reason I put this down is because I'd like to think all clans operate this way. Every one of their members gets a fair crack at the whip; everyone who is available to play does play; turns are taken by the right person unless something (as per the examples cited by Dako) prevents him or her from doing so.

So I'm sorry KORT, we're not out to get you. If we had been we'd have lodged this report six months ago when we formed our own private opinion of josko's frequent sitting. However, when after three high profile challenges all three opponents have questioned KORT's ethics in regard to this matter then it definitely deserves to be brought into the public forum where it may receive the scrutiny it deserves. If everything's above board then the hundreds (yes, hundreds) of times josko has played for a clanmate will all be passed as having been legitimate account sitting.

As a footnote, here's a prime example of the kind of crap we (and doubtless other clans) have to endure in competitive games nowadays:

Game 9043129

46 minutes after blue played his move on 25th May, BFM's best player (HardAttack) came on and sat a crucial turn for green. It was the kind of move only a quality player would have considered (no offence to Boner Doner) and which has ultimately won them the game and probably cost us the challenge. Immediately after the move green's flag changes back to Canada. So I PM'd Boner Doner and he unwittingly replied eight hours later

Hey CoF,

I'm around, I've just been extremely busy lately, why?


So with everything on a knife edge in our challenge it is seemingly being left to the opponent's top guns to come in and play out the crucial moves.

There has to be a way to stamp this out or make an example of those who abuse the system.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby greenoaks on Wed May 25, 2011 11:30 pm

i read your entire post CoF. i liked it.

i too believe a team is only as strong as the weakest link (player) & it is not a team if it is just one person.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Denise on Thu May 26, 2011 1:12 am

lokisgal wrote:I had a similar complaint in our war with Empire where lord voldemort was around taking turns then leaving a clan game to run short on time. Often he would log onto msn then suddenly his flag would change and his turn would be taken. I also have a widget which tells me when people are taking turns so that I could see when he was taking his turns and then watch his flag change back and forth between his home country and 2 others during the course of multiple days.
I went to the mods rather than file a report in here because they just become bitch fests. I know the mods can check IPs and see who is in whos account when. I was told I had to host images to them and this is blocked on my computers so I asked them to check ips. I also offered to email screen shots as attachments and was told that was not acceptable.

Its one thing if there is a some sort of mis understanding between a sitter and a sittee its another to take someones turns in a game multiple times. Once ok you had a mix up or didnt make it back and a clan member got worried and hoped in.
Twice its a hmm but after that well its just not right. It does bring up the question of why play team games then.

I was told by lovo that well he just didnt have time to come back and take that turn yet he took turns with much more time on them earlier in the day. I don't think you get pick and chose which turns you take and then leave others for your clan mates especially clan war games. As I said one time ok 2 times hmm 3 times well then why are you in that game to begin with?

There really needs to be a more strict sitting rule ESPECIALLY when it comes to clan wars..........


loki, I just refreshed my memory by looking at that hive game chat. LV was sat twice. The first time he made a comment in chat when there was 14 hours left for his turn. He intended to come back to it but didn't make it back in time, so the turn was sat. The second time, several rounds later, he was on at the very last minute but someone else in the clan was not aware of it so they took the turn for him. He tried to explain his busy RL situation in the chat, but that didn't go over very well with you. Perhaps he should have taken his turn when he commented the first time, but he didn't so it was necessary for someone to take it for him. This is not at all the same as the situation being discussed here, and I resent the implication that it is. LV did not leave his turns on purpose to be taken by a better player who would make all the strategic decisions for him. He was not trying to cheat, which is what I consider to be happening here if the allegations are true. It was merely some misunderstandings between you and some our players, and possibly some misunderstandings within our clan.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As a footnote, here's a prime example of the kind of crap we (and doubtless other clans) have to endure in competitive games nowadays:

Game 9043129

46 minutes after blue played his move on 25th May, BFM's best player (HardAttack) came on and sat a crucial turn for green. It was the kind of move only a quality player would have considered (no offence to Boner Doner) and which has ultimately won them the game and probably cost us the challenge. Immediately after the move green's flag changes back to Canada. So I PM'd Boner Doner and he unwittingly replied eight hours later

Hey CoF,

I'm around, I've just been extremely busy lately, why?


So with everything on a knife edge in our challenge it is seemingly being left to the opponent's top guns to come in and play out the crucial moves.

There has to be a way to stamp this out or make an example of those who abuse the system.


wow, if true, that's pretty underhanded. How is it even fun to play this way? Isn't that why we're here?
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby MichelSableheart on Thu May 26, 2011 2:11 am

@Rodion: In a number of these games, you cite an unstable internet connection as the reason for josko sitting. Because this happened multiple times over a longer period, it seems to me that you were aware of the situation. This means that when you did not take your turns when you had the chance (when you did have a stable internet connection a few hours earlier) you knew you ran the risk of missing your turn. You knew that Josko might have to take your turn if you didn't take your turn then, but you didn't take your turn for strategic considerations (wanting more time to discuss the move).

It may not be against the letter of the law, but it definately seems against the spirit of account sitting: taking turns for someone who is unable to take them.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby SirSebstar on Thu May 26, 2011 2:56 am

Maybe for the time being, all sitting should be disallowed?
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Incandenza on Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 am

SirSebstar wrote:Maybe for the time being, all sitting should be disallowed?


If we start getting rid of everything on the site that can be abused, then lack might as well power down the servers and lock the door on his way out. The vast vast majority of sitting is perfectly legitimate, as are the vast vast majority of absences.

In fact, my great fear is that management will overreact to this and other potential sitting abuses happening in clan games, mostly because management doesn't really seem to understand clans. Some will remember that Optimus Prime floated a sitting system trial balloon some months back, and it was pretty overwhelmingly panned. Earlier in the thread, jake mentioned that bruce has gone on record backstage against any sort of sitting system. This happens to be a place where bruce and I are in 100% agreement, though if it turns out that the allegations against josko are true, then we probably have different motives for thinking so.

I simply don't think that software is the solution here.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby Army of GOD on Thu May 26, 2011 4:19 am

Hahahahahaha, there is absolutely no flaming going on here, sorry KORT members who feel otherwise. Anyway, Bones isn't even in TOFU so don't try to think that TOFU made this thread...

Also, there's a reason this forum exists. Why aren't all multi/secret diplomacy accusations all through e-tickets? I'm sorry, but you guys are trying to hide behind those excuses without trying to defend the actual case being presented.

I'm split though. I mean, as far as we know, josko.ri is just ordering everyone what to do on their turns anyway (key phrase: "as far as we know") and there isn't anything illegal with that. I mean, yea, it ruins the game and doesn't make it any fun at all, but if the players are just going to listen to joski.ri's orders anyway, I don't see how this is abuse.

It's stupid, ruins the fun and destroys the integrity of the game, but in my opinion I think it's within the rules.
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Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri

Postby SirSebstar on Thu May 26, 2011 4:37 am

Incandenza wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:Maybe for the time being, all sitting should be disallowed?


If we start getting rid of everything on the site that can be abused, then lack might as well power down the servers and lock the door on his way out. The vast vast majority of sitting is perfectly legitimate, as are the vast vast majority of absences.

In fact, my great fear is that management will overreact to this and other potential sitting abuses happening in clan games, mostly because management doesn't really seem to understand clans. Some will remember that Optimus Prime floated a sitting system trial balloon some months back, and it was pretty overwhelmingly panned. Earlier in the thread, jake mentioned that bruce has gone on record backstage against any sort of sitting system. This happens to be a place where bruce and I are in 100% agreement, though if it turns out that the allegations against josko are true, then we probably have different motives for thinking so.

I simply don't think that software is the solution here.


I partially disagree with you. I think that any non ad-hoc sitting system is not going to satisfy I think a feature where you can acces someone else's account for games only where your logging in is accounted for in the gamechat, is something worthwhile. It would not stop the josko sitting abuse, but it would make things more visiable and trackable. Then it would be obvious in some cases where sitting is happening not to avoid a missed turn, but for strategic purposes, and that is not allowed.. I am obviously not talking about a single turn in a clan war, but 3-5 or more turns a game in over 20-40 or more games would be... remarkable.. then you'd better not put that person in, if he is not going to play. Also it would be able to document sitters action or lack thereof much better.
overall, it is NOT a solution, but it is a tool to get to where we want to go. A system that is flexiable to use, but does show its not the original player playing. Within the rules frame you can agree on wether or not that is all acceptable, but you can see it at least.. E.g. within clanwars you can agree that no more then 2% of the turns may be sat for, unless vacations are announced in gamechat or something..
maybe nothing else needs to be arranged and we just play a josko vs clan game and thats okay too, but at least we know it!
I agree with you that any sitting system should not bring more limitations then the current ease of sitting should. thats about all at the moment.
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