Westboro Baptist

[muy_thaiguy]

Interestingly enough, one of them (the students that dressed up as angels, NOT a Westboro person) ended up being my high school English teacher, and even showed us a picture of her doing it.

Your English teacher was a victoria secret angel?

Sadly, no. She was the other angel mentioned. The kind in the robe that blocked out the Westboro people.

[Symmetry]

Have any of you guys watched the doc yet? I'd be interested in knowing what people who've seen it thought.

I've seen it.
Not much to say really, seems like a pretty standard cult.
Don't think they'll disintegrate too soon, they should be able to successfully brainwash at least a couple of the kids.

Well- sort of the point of the follow up documentary is that they are disintegrating, and losing the younger members. I think they'll probably manage to brainwash a few more of their kids, but like I said, media attention seems to have offered some of them a bit of a way out, or at least access to other ideas.

[PLAYER57832]

Have any of you guys watched the doc yet? I'd be interested in knowing what people who've seen it thought.

I've seen it.
Not much to say really, seems like a pretty standard cult.
Don't think they'll disintegrate too soon, they should be able to successfully brainwash at least a couple of the kids.

Well- sort of the point of the follow up documentary is that they are disintegrating, and losing the younger members. I think they'll probably manage to brainwash a few more of their kids, but like I said, media attention seems to have offered some of them a bit of a way out, or at least access to other ideas.

Sadly, I believe you are mistaken.

What actually happens is that they get a few to leave... older kids, mostly. Some of them will wind up coming back later, because having lived in such a structured/strict society, it can be hard to adapt to a more open world.

However, the bigger story is that the younger kids, future kids will not be allowed such openness. They will be even more heavily "schooled' and sheltered. As much as many will oppose Westboro, they will also find many friends around the country. THOSE are the ones to whom these people will turn, who their younger kids will be allowed to associate with.

Each failure is a lesson learned. Having found that this particular documentary maybe did not have the desired impact (though they will no doubt see a silver lining), they will turn to other tactics.

Meanwhile, for every Westoboro being vocal, you find several churches with similar beliefs, but fully and very intentionally quiet.

And... they keep growing. They grow because there is nothing like a "circle the wagons" type mentality, a "we are oppressed and have to come together" idea to forge bonds and encourage people to persist.

BUT, here is the thing. You will never defeat them by disagreeing. that only reinforces their belief of being attacked. This is precisely why something like that angel campaign is so brilliant.

It is also why it is important to recognize that while there absolutely are plain idiots in EVERY belief/religion, that idiocy is not because of religion or belief. Think about this -- Both Westboro and Martain Luther King were driven to act by the "same" church. (I would argue probably not truly, but that gets into theology) I hardly call Martin Luther King "crazy".. or, at least its a kind of "crazy" I admire!

When you attack ALL who believe, when you try to claim that idiocy like that church is representative of Christianity or any religion as a whole, then you give the idiots fodder and hurt those who are reasonable.

And, well, you often wind up painting yourself as a bigot/idiot of another kind.

[BigBallinStalin]

Have any of you guys watched the doc yet? I'd be interested in knowing what people who've seen it thought.

I've seen it.
Not much to say really, seems like a pretty standard cult.
Don't think they'll disintegrate too soon, they should be able to successfully brainwash at least a couple of the kids.

Well- sort of the point of the follow up documentary is that they are disintegrating, and losing the younger members. I think they'll probably manage to brainwash a few more of their kids, but like I said, media attention seems to have offered some of them a bit of a way out, or at least access to other ideas.

Sadly, I believe you are mistaken.

What actually happens is that they get a few to leave... older kids, mostly. Some of them will wind up coming back later, because having lived in such a structured/strict society, it can be hard to adapt to a more open world.

However, the bigger story is that the younger kids, future kids will not be allowed such openness. They will be even more heavily "schooled' and sheltered. As much as many will oppose Westboro, they will also find many friends around the country. THOSE are the ones to whom these people will turn, who their younger kids will be allowed to associate with.

.....

When you attack ALL who believe, when you try to claim that idiocy like that church is representative of Christianity or any religion as a whole, then you give the idiots fodder and hurt those who are reasonable.

And, well, you often wind up painting yourself as a bigot/idiot of another kind.

Good lord, what happened?

[Symmetry]

Have any of you guys watched the doc yet? I'd be interested in knowing what people who've seen it thought.

I've seen it.
Not much to say really, seems like a pretty standard cult.
Don't think they'll disintegrate too soon, they should be able to successfully brainwash at least a couple of the kids.

Well- sort of the point of the follow up documentary is that they are disintegrating, and losing the younger members. I think they'll probably manage to brainwash a few more of their kids, but like I said, media attention seems to have offered some of them a bit of a way out, or at least access to other ideas.

Sadly, I believe you are mistaken.

What actually happens is that they get a few to leave... older kids, mostly. Some of them will wind up coming back later, because having lived in such a structured/strict society, it can be hard to adapt to a more open world.

However, the bigger story is that the younger kids, future kids will not be allowed such openness. They will be even more heavily "schooled' and sheltered. As much as many will oppose Westboro, they will also find many friends around the country. THOSE are the ones to whom these people will turn, who their younger kids will be allowed to associate with.

Each failure is a lesson learned. Having found that this particular documentary maybe did not have the desired impact (though they will no doubt see a silver lining), they will turn to other tactics.

Meanwhile, for every Westoboro being vocal, you find several churches with similar beliefs, but fully and very intentionally quiet.

And... they keep growing. They grow because there is nothing like a "circle the wagons" type mentality, a "we are oppressed and have to come together" idea to forge bonds and encourage people to persist.

BUT, here is the thing. You will never defeat them by disagreeing. that only reinforces their belief of being attacked. This is precisely why something like that angel campaign is so brilliant.

It is also why it is important to recognize that while there absolutely are plain idiots in EVERY belief/religion, that idiocy is not because of religion or belief. Think about this -- Both Westboro and Martain Luther King were driven to act by the "same" church. (I would argue probably not truly, but that gets into theology) I hardly call Martin Luther King "crazy".. or, at least its a kind of "crazy" I admire!

When you attack ALL who believe, when you try to claim that idiocy like that church is representative of Christianity or any religion as a whole, then you give the idiots fodder and hurt those who are reasonable.

And, well, you often wind up painting yourself as a bigot/idiot of another kind.

What? This is a huge strawman.

1 ) Where's your evidence that they aren't losing people, or that they're gaining people? Is it just something that you believe? I'm happy to see your evidence.
2 ) Where's your evidence that people who've left the church are coming back? Again, is it just something you feel will happen? Or do you have evidence?
3 ) Circling the wagons is right. It's really not the same as growth. It's a shrinking and a tightening down to the hardcore. A last stand.
4 )Nowhere have I argued that the Church (i.e., the broad belief in Christianity) is wrong, or that Westboro Baptist is representative of all Christianity. Theroux doesn't either. In fact I've made efforts to make that distinction in the first page of this thread. Strawman.
5 ) Nobody argued that MLK was crazy. It's not in the videos posted, it's not in the thread. I've never argued it. Theroux never argued it. Strawman.
6 ) Nobody argued that there idiots were exclusive to Christianity, or even religion. Strawman.

If I'd argued for those things, then perhaps you'd have a fair argument for calling me bigoted or an idiot.

[PLAYER57832]

1 ) Where's your evidence that they aren't losing people, or that they're gaining people? Is it just something that you believe? I'm happy to see your evidence.

Having lived with and among several of these communities, plus church statistics on memberships, etc.

2 ) Where's your evidence that people who've left the church are coming back? Again, is it just something you feel will happen? Or do you have evidence?

Again, this is what I am seeing all around me and have in every community in which I have been a part.

Getting into all the evidence would take a lot of time.

3 ) Circling the wagons is right. It's really not the same as growth. It's a shrinking and a tightening down to the hardcore. A last stand.

Wish this were true. Instead, what is happening is that these folks are going "underground" more.

4 )Nowhere have I argued that the Church (i.e., the broad belief in Christianity) is wrong, or that Westboro Baptist is representative of all Christianity. Theroux doesn't either. In fact I've made efforts to make that distinction in the first page of this thread. Strawman.

I agree, that comment was not really aimed at you, more trying to head off responses I anticipated.

5 ) Nobody argued that MLK was crazy. It's not in the videos posted, it's not in the thread. I've never argued it. Theroux never argued it. Strawman.

Uh.. historically, a LOT of people thought he was. Not a strwaman.

6 ) Nobody argued that there idiots were exclusive to Christianity, or even religion. Strawman.

No, but again... heading of argument I saw coming and that has tended to come in resonse.

If I'd argued for those things, then perhaps you'd have a fair argument for calling me bigoted or an idiot.

I believe I said specifically "if" you think that, then.... I did not say you thought that specifically. If you thought so, I am sorry.

[Symmetry]

1 ) Where's your evidence that they aren't losing people, or that they're gaining people? Is it just something that you believe? I'm happy to see your evidence.

Having lived with and among several of these communities, plus church statistics on memberships, etc.

2 ) Where's your evidence that people who've left the church are coming back? Again, is it just something you feel will happen? Or do you have evidence?

Again, this is what I am seeing all around me and have in every community in which I have been a part.

Getting into all the evidence would take a lot of time.

3 ) Circling the wagons is right. It's really not the same as growth. It's a shrinking and a tightening down to the hardcore. A last stand.

Wish this were true. Instead, what is happening is that these folks are going "underground" more.

4 )Nowhere have I argued that the Church (i.e., the broad belief in Christianity) is wrong, or that Westboro Baptist is representative of all Christianity. Theroux doesn't either. In fact I've made efforts to make that distinction in the first page of this thread. Strawman.

I agree, that comment was not really aimed at you, more trying to head off responses I anticipated.

5 ) Nobody argued that MLK was crazy. It's not in the videos posted, it's not in the thread. I've never argued it. Theroux never argued it. Strawman.

Uh.. historically, a LOT of people thought he was. Not a strwaman.

6 ) Nobody argued that there idiots were exclusive to Christianity, or even religion. Strawman.

No, but again... heading of argument I saw coming and that has tended to come in resonse.

If I'd argued for those things, then perhaps you'd have a fair argument for calling me bigoted or an idiot.

I believe I said specifically "if" you think that, then.... I did not say you thought that specifically. If you thought so, I am sorry.

For 1) and 2), well I just don't see that from the evidence of the documentary in relation to Westboro Baptist. Membership could well be on the up for other churches with similar views, but I'm really just talking about Westboro here. As I said, I didn't want to broaden this out particularly. Theroux's doc only deals with Westboro, and not any of the wider stuff. In fact, he makes efforts to really limit the documentary to the families involved in it. It's really not trying to be a broad attack on Christianity.

For 3), I can see your point, but the doc really does address it. They certainly now see themselves as taking a last stand. Again, purely dealing with Westboro. You can find the segment in part 3 on youtube around the 6:30 mark. He comes back to it later on too.

5) and 6) Well- these seem to be strawmen to me. Nobody on this thread was arguing for them, and it's not in the doc. The fact that someone unrelated in the past argued it(5), or the idea that someone might argue it in the future(6) seem to me like you're arguing against claims that aren't present now.

Also, you didn't say "if". You said "when". There's ambiguity in that, and it came across as an attack for a bunch of things nobody was arguing, addressed as a response to me. Perhaps I should have taken it in better faith and not seen only the negative side.

But thanks for the clarification.

[PLAYER57832]

.

Also, you didn't say "if". You said "when". There's ambiguity in that, and it came across as an attack for a bunch of things nobody was arguing, addressed as a response to me. Perhaps I should have taken it in better faith and not seen only the negative side.

But thanks for the clarification.

No, I am sorry if it came off more negative than it should. i apologize.

[puddytat]

Honestly, I think the folks of WBC are just plain crazy.

[2dimes]

Honestly, I think the folks of WBC are just plain crazy.

Religion's powerfull, kind of like sex. People tend to mistake it for God. The fear that generates is worse than crazy.