TOFU vs T4C [40-10 of 50] [Final]

[Lubawski]

Just so you all know, there will be no medals issued for this challenge.

Bad luck Saxlad.

Because we accepted a challenge from a clan that's not "good enough" to face us? That's fucking ridiculous and a slap in the face of T4C.

Its the right thing to do. If clans start getting medals for accepting challenges from lower ranked clans then the site is doomed. We can't have that stuff going on. The top clans will never face each other again because they know they can get easier medals. They will start getting lazy, maybe even forgetting to top up their Premium membership. Chaos ensues.

So true. Everyone knows this clan thing is all about the medals. If we can insult clans by saying they aren't good enough to qualify, then that is clearly the best option for the site. We don't want to promote clans accepting challenges even when they think they can win.

[danryan]

Tough decision, I know it's a difficult call but this will discourage any top clans giving a chance to a new or unproven clan. There's a fine line between farming for medals and giving anyone a shot but I'd prefer to err on the side of trusting people's good nature on this. Maybe it'd be better to wait until the results are in? I mean, the war is going to happen either way, and if T4C surprises everyone and wins 15-20 games I'd say everyone will have "earned" their medals here.

[phantomzero]

Tough decision, I know it's a difficult call but this will discourage any top clans giving a chance to a new or unproven clan. There's a fine line between farming for medals and giving anyone a shot but I'd prefer to err on the side of trusting people's good nature on this. Maybe it'd be better to wait until the results are in? I mean, the war is going to happen either way, and if T4C surprises everyone and wins 15-20 games I'd say everyone will have "earned" their medals here.

Agreed. What are the minimum requirements for the medals again? Won't this win/loss still count for clan ladders? If TOFU lost wouldn't this hurt their reputation? Are Clan War/Challenge rights being given to create games?

Is this a Clan Challenge or not? If it is then medals should be awarded.

[sonicsteve]

quite right.

I'm honestly not bothered about the medal*, but it's insulting to us to suggest that we're farming and insulting and dismissive of T4C who will be giving these games their best shot, just as we are.

*If we really wanted to farm some medals we'd get there a lot more quickly by running or playing 16-man doodle tourneys or similar.

[jpcloet]

Are Clan War/Challenge rights being given to create games?

Privileges were given out already.

[InsomniaRed]

Are Clan War/Challenge rights being given to create games?

Privileges were given out already.

I think what he meant was if privs are given for a clan war, shouldn't it be treated like any other clan war (in terms of medals). That's how I read his post, at least.

[jpcloet]

All clan wars can get medals, but not necessarily all wars will get medals. They have 2 different requirements. Medals are being used to promote competitive play, and non-competitive challenges won't receive medals. Non-competitive is probably better wording than farming.

Eg. You could have 2 clans that only play singles and they would be given rights, however, based on the team game rule, they would not be given medals. Privileges and medals do not have to overlap, but can quite easily.

[InsomniaRed]

All clan wars can get medals, but not necessarily all wars will get medals. They have 2 different requirements. Medals are being used to promote competitive play, and non-competitive challenges won't receive medals. Non-competitive is probably better wording than farming.

Eg. You could have 2 clans that only play singles and they would be given rights, however, based on the team game rule, they would not be given medals. Privileges and medals do not have to overlap, but can quite easily.

So this is a non competitive challenge? Please explain. That makes no sense to me.

[jpcloet]

You have one of the top 5 clans facing a brand new clan that just barely lost to a brand new clan. Based on past history within the clan world, TOFU is more likely than not to win over 70% of the games. T4C would be better off facing 1 or 2 more clans in the mid-level range before going after an elite clan. The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

I think it is great that T4C has the opportunity to learn, however, I don't expect this to be a close battle. I'd like to wait and see results, but do understand the fair warning on the medals.

[InsomniaRed]

You have one of the top 5 clans facing a brand new clan that just barely lost to a brand new clan. Based on past history within the clan world, TOFU is more likely than not to win over 70% of the games. T4C would be better off facing 1 or 2 more clans in the mid-level range before going after an elite clan. The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

I think it is great that T4C has the opportunity to learn, however, I don't expect this to be a close battle. I'd like to wait and see results, but do understand the fair warning on the medals.

So what happens if they win? They get denied medals because they were expected to lose?

[jpcloet]

That's why we wait to see what happens. History has shown that highly unlikely in the clan world.

[InsomniaRed]

That's why we wait to see what happens. History has shown that highly unlikely in the clan world.

Seems a bit bias though if they do end up winning and receive medals for it.

[Rodion]

That's why we wait to see what happens. History has shown that highly unlikely in the clan world.

Seems a bit bias though if they do end up winning and receive medals for it.

It definitely is biased. But by no means that bias should be considered unfair!

“Justice consists of treating equals equally and unequals unequally according to relevant differences." - Aristotle

[phantomzero]

You have one of the top 5 clans facing a brand new clan that just barely lost to a brand new clan. Based on past history within the clan world, TOFU is more likely than not to win over 70% of the games. T4C would be better off facing 1 or 2 more clans in the mid-level range before going after an elite clan. The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

I think it is great that T4C has the opportunity to learn, however, I don't expect this to be a close battle. I'd like to wait and see results, but do understand the fair warning on the medals.

If this is a non-competitive challenge then privileges should not have been granted. We wouldn't want a new clan to get discouraged and fade out because of this.

What about all of the other lop-sided challenges will they not receive medals?

Emipre Vs Soldiers of war 41-19 68%

EMPIRE vs The Last Warriers 47-13 78%

THOTA vs L4D 29-11 72.5% (although it's was only 40 games, not 41)

TOFU vs BFM 29-11 72.5% (same, only 40 games)

[eddie2]

no i think you need to look at what jpcloet is saying properly T4c are not a established clan yet.
same as time were not established. we both started about the same time. but in our challenge time outclassed t4c 21 v 9 with the last set not needing played. what jp is getting at there is a big line between the 2 clans t4c and tofu. I am not against them playing each other but medals like cof stated do not matter they are just playing to give t4c a chance. if clans are allowed to do this,why do the site punish players for playing ? players it is the same kind of situation here.

[phantomzero]

no i think you need to look at what jpcloet is saying properly T4c are not a established clan yet.
same as time were not established. we both started about the same time. but in our challenge time outclassed t4c 21 v 9 with the last set not needing played. what jp is getting at there is a big line between the 2 clans t4c and tofu. I am not against them playing each other but medals like cof stated do not matter they are just playing to give t4c a chance. if clans are allowed to do this,why do the site punish players for playing ? players it is the same kind of situation here.

Put that way it make some more sense now if TIME beat them 21-9. If that is the case then perhaps they shouldn't be able to play TOFU at all?

[jpcloet]

Anyone can play anyone and get privileges.

[lord voldemort]

points and clan battles are quite different.
whorring ? compromises the scoreboard integrity (lol i know)
where as there are measures in place in the clan wars for unbalanced wars to not count towards the grand scheme of things...no offence to t4c...ive already stated good on you for giving it a go

[TheSaxlad]

no i think you need to look at what jpcloet is saying properly T4c are not a established clan yet.
same as time were not established. we both started about the same time. but in our challenge time outclassed t4c 21 v 9 with the last set not needing played. what jp is getting at there is a big line between the 2 clans t4c and tofu. I am not against them playing each other but medals like cof stated do not matter they are just playing to give t4c a chance. if clans are allowed to do this,why do the site punish players for playing ? players it is the same kind of situation here.

Put that way it make some more sense now if TIME beat them 21-9. If that is the case then perhaps they shouldn't be able to play TOFU at all?

We got unlucky in that clan war. If AKA, (TIME by another name or so I am now told) want to rematch us in a war we will accept, after the ccup and eddies lower clan tourney.

[elfish_lad]

I think that this is a very good discussion actually. When I first came on the scene the Clan World seemed remote and far beyond my interest. That changed over the months. I'm thrilled that it seems to be growing and gaining an interest beyond a limited number of people. That is great for everyone. But I totally understand the challenge, when there is a reward at stake, to figure out the system. If my Trinity Western basketball teams play a far, far, lower ranked team, maybe even a new university, does that game count for the season rankings? Probably not.

The challenge for the Clan World is to work out over the next number of months as we (hopefully) see the Clan World grow, the division of clans. A top ranked team should be able to play a clan in a "lower level" once or twice a season imh. It gives a chance for a top team to try out some new maps/settings/players etc. and a lower one to experience play with a team that will make very few mistakes. Win-win all around.

But it needs to be thought out.

E.

[jpeter15]

The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

So are you not giving medals in challenges like this as a way of dissuading top clans from taking on newer clans?

[jpcloet]

The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

So are you not giving medals in challenges like this as a way of dissuading top clans from taking on newer clans?

The clan medals are being used to promote more equal playing grounds, so the preference of clans should be to take on clans of similar skill levels. So inherently, yes.

[FarangDemon]

Medals are being used to promote competitive play, and non-competitive challenges won't receive medals. Non-competitive is probably better wording than farming.

Good on you for promoting competitive clan play. Would only be fair to give the underdog some medal if they win, though. Like when I went after high ranked teams when I was a very low rank, this was competitive from my side and I got lots of points as a reward.

Maybe have a 'Clan War Upset' medal. But that means you'll need to decide how to define underdog and upset. Just define some official CC Clan Ranking, and define 'upset' as when a clan is defeated by another clan 10 spots below in ranking or something like that. Say you only get a regular medal if the clan you are facing is higher than 10 spots below you in ranking.

If you have this restriction in place for the much higher ranked team, they cannot farm medals and could face the shame of a Clan War Upset medal being awarded to the underdog. But, if the much lower ranked team happens to win, they get the regular medal plus an upset medal.

Btw, best of luck to both teams - I believe there are good reasons for top ranked clans to play lower ranked ones from time to time, as already stated by many (i.e. training new maps, new recruits). But I think a policy of encouraging clans to mostly play peers is necessary to prevent abuse.

(Though personally I think all CC medals and scores are pointless as indicators of skill and therefore unimportant. Only one thing really matters - can you defeat your opponent in the arena?)

[jpeter15]

The last few times battles like this happened, the clan on the wrong end ended up fading out. That is not good for the clan world as a whole.

So are you not giving medals in challenges like this as a way of dissuading top clans from taking on newer clans?

The clan medals are being used to promote more equal playing grounds, so the preference of clans should be to take on clans of similar skill levels. So inherently, yes.

I appreciate the no BS response. I see your point and actually think you are right for the most part. My biggest concern is that it sets a precedent that will cause issues in the future. How do you determine a competitive challenge vs non-competitive? Is it just a judgment call? If so, who makes the judgment call? If it is a non-competitive challenge, does the result go into your formula for rankings?

I understand there is no perfect solution here but its good you are here explaining the thought process.

[Dako]

Does competitiveness base on final score (over 70% win rate?) or on some personal feeling? Or due to ladder ranking? You need some kind of actual "formula" or rule for that. Just calling one challenge non-competitive and the one one - it will not work and most of CCers will criticize you.