[Abandoned] - Second Indochina War

[FarangDemon]

Hmm... I really like how you did the US navy.

Thanks!

Hanoi and Pathet Lao are still really close.

You are right, we'll need to remove link between Pathet Lao Caves and Vinh. Then it should be ok.

I still think the Viet Mihn can be worked in here some how, perhaps on the Ho Chi Minh Trail a set of three flags or something. Maybe a dual bonus system with the N. Vietnamese army?

When you say Viet Minh, I think you really mean Viet Cong. While it is clear who Viet Minh are in the 1st Indochina war, I'm having a hard time figuring out who they represent during the 2nd Indochina War (circa 1970) if not the Viet Cong. I recommend we try to add Viet Cong instead, as it is clear who these people are at that time, and they constitute the bulk of the forces fighting on behalf of the north in South Vietnam (until after Tet Offensive, when VC control of South Vietnam was essentially broken and VC became a shadow of its former self, largely confined to Cambodia so it could no longer recruit and had to instead be bolstered by NVA troops).

Here is their flag:



"Nov 1960 - Thousands who fear arrest flee to North Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh will later send many back to infiltrate South Vietnam as part of his People's Liberation Armed Forces (Viet Cong). Called Viet Cong by Diem, meaning Communist Vietnamese, Ho's guerrillas blend into the countryside, indistinguishable from South Vietnamese, while working to undermine Diem's government." http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

"Southern Vietnamese communists established the National Liberation Front in 1960 to encourage the participation of non-communists in the insurgency. Many of the Vietcong's core members were "regroupees," southern Vietminh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954). Hanoi gave the regroupees military training and sent them back to the South along the Ho Chi Minh trail in the early 1960s. The NLF called for Southerners to "overthrow the camouflaged colonial regime of the American imperialists" and to make "efforts toward the peaceful unification." The Vietcong's best-known action was the Tet Offensive, a massive assault on more than 100 South Vietnamese urban centers in 1968, including an attack on the US embassy in Saigon. The offensive riveted the attention of the world's media for weeks, but also overextended the Vietcong. Later communist offensives were conducted predominately by the North Vietnamese. The group was dissolved in 1976 when North and South Vietnam were officially unified under a communist government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong

[FarangDemon]

3 Proposed Viet Cong positions:

Iron Triangle / Cu Chi Tunnels - just northwest of Saigon. If we can fit "Cu Chi Tunnels" as label I think that would be a better name, as players would realize that they are fighting through the famous tunnel system. This was an extensive tunnel system and VC base of operations for conducting attacks against Saigon. Central Office for South Vietnam (COSVN) headquarters was located around this area, which controlled all PAVN/VC activities south of the triborder region of Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam. Maybe we can move labels around and fit this in - can also move First Cav Div further north to make space. I'd add connections between Cu Chi Tunnels and Kratie (HCMT), Cu Chi Tunnels and First Cav Division. Add one-way attacks from Cu Chi Tunnels to Saigon and My Tho.

U Minh Forest - South of Binh Thuy AB. Connects Mobile Riverine Forces and Binh Thuy AB. I think extend the HCMT trail from Binh Thuy AB to U Minh Forest.
Could add 1-way attack from Nha Trang to U Minh Forest so North Vietnamese player can get to there by boat from Hai Phong.

Kratie - We could change Kratie to be Viet Cong (I see many references made to VC presence in Cambodia), and make Vinh be PAVN instead. This makes it easier for North Vietnam player to get their flags, but since Vinh can be bombarded easily, the advantage seems to be evened out.

We could make it control 2 out of 3 VC for a +1. All VC for +2. And if you control a PAVN bonus, then it could double.

Additional note - consider making 1 way attacks a different color (red?) as the one from Dong Hoi to Khe Sanh is hard to see as it is.

[grifftron]

FD, just PM me when its all cleared up for the new additions, khoopkhunkhrap

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

Ah yeah, Viet Cong... I dunno why I get those two mixed up.

[grifftron]

Introducing VCong.

Draft 5

Click image to enlarge.

[jabajabba]

Wow, impressive stuff guys ....... Should be fun to play. Get it on here and lets try it out

[Industrial Helix]

What about Viet Cong at Xepon and Nam Ngang? Those would have been locations they would have held but the added threat of air raids would act as a balancing force against the reality of 5 Viet Cong symbols?

[FarangDemon]

What about Viet Cong at Xepon and Nam Ngang? Those would have been locations they would have held but the added threat of air raids would act as a balancing force against the reality of 5 Viet Cong symbols?

Sounds good to me. I was trying to come up with additional VC positions, but was afraid of crowding. Makes sense to use these positions we already have, and they are on the HCMT so it provides extra reason to bomb it.

[Industrial Helix]

What about connecting the Pathet Lao Caves starting point to having a better move on the Vietcong positions rather than Laos or N. Vietnam? This owuld be better than having two players fight over the Laos bonus. This way, each starting position has a tendency to become a force in the Indochina war that would have been in existence during the actual war.

[FarangDemon]

I feel like we should have both Laos factions vying for control of Laos. This is consistent with your suggestion to make Plain of Jars more strategic by making it a flag. Each of these factions can go for something else - Vientiane can go for Thailand bonuses and Pathet Laos can go for HCMT.

I like your suggestion to have the Laos player have connectivity to HCMT. Originally it connected to Vinh but this made Pathet Laos too close to Hanoi. Maybe we can insert connection between Houaphan and Nam Ngang. This connection would not be HCMT, which actually started from Vinh. This way the Pathet Laos player can go for the HCMT without having to be at loggerheads with Vietnamese over Vinh.

I really like your suggestions, especially the navy and VC suggestions, which I think contribute very greatly to the historical accuracy and historio-gaming experience of this map (i.e. Cu Chi Tunnels and battleship USS New Jersey). But we don't want to keep making changes only to have you then come back at the end and tell us we need to scrap the entire scheme of having connections with icons instead of contiguous bonus regions. You did mention you did not like this aspect of the map, though you didn't outright veto it. I have additional ideas for improvements as well, but it makes sense to first get approval for our proposed underlying foundation before building more onto it.

So after we make these additional changes can we then get this map promoted out of the Melting Pot and into the Gameplay Workshop?
Otherwise, please let us know what in addition would be required.

[Industrial Helix]

The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.

[grifftron]

The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.

Digi 888's (enlarged 33% w & h)

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.

[grifftron]

In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.

Thanks IH,

I think even moving terts to the left or right a bit would make the room for the digis.

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.

[FarangDemon]

I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.

Thanks much! I appreciate your concerns regarding clarity, but hope you appreciate my concern to not want to misrepresent actual point locations as corresponding to a larger region which did not actually exist by that name if at all, and where if the historically accurate name were used, it would not ring any bells for the Vietnam war buffs.

This compromise is taken on most maps, but I think we can simplify the appearance here and still keep to the fundamentals - connection-based scheme using actual locations.

A few things that could help with the spider-web-like appearance:

• Change connection from Mobile Riverine Force to First Cav Div to curve around Saigon, this way it intersects just one other connection instead of two.
  
  
• Perhaps we could replace the one way connection lines on the map between Hai Phong -> Nha Trang and Nha Trang -> U Minh Forest with text on the map. The lines required to connect them are very long - I believe this should further improve the clarity of the map.
  
  Could put this text just to the right of Hai Phong:
  
  "Sea Infiltration Routes (purple or other color for this text)
  Hai Phong - - > Nha Trang
  "Nha Trang - - > U Minh Forest"
  
  Could change color of the label for these three locations to be purple so that someone can more easily realize that there is something going on with these three locations. They then see that "Sea Infiltration Routes" is also written in purple and are then more likely to inform themselves of these connections. Seems like it would have the desired effect, but I'm not a graphics/artistic person, so feel free to veto if you think the added purple (or other color) would make it seem more complicated.

I think spelling out Sea Infiltration Routes like this raises players' awareness of this facet of the conflict. And one other name change to make the name more meaningful to players - change "Ta Veng" to "Khmer Rouge HQ".

[grifftron]

Added on the above posted by FD

Click image to enlarge.

[FarangDemon]

Cool, that looks a lot clearer. Any feedback?

One additional idea I had (inspired by Stalingrad map) was to put a plane - 4 in total, each labelled Barrel Roll, Steel Tiger, Rolling Thunder, Freedom Deal - in each of the bombing zones. Every airbase one way attacks each of its two planes (as each airbase bombs 2 separate missions). The planes bombard and are bombarded by any region in the bombing zone.

With this change, I think we can do away with the +2 bonus for holding airbases.
In place of this, we could have a +2 Air Superiority bonus for controlling air (the two planes) in both bombing zones from a particular base (Barrel Roll AND Steel Tiger or Rolling Thunder AND Freedom Deal). Its only 2 plane territs to hold for the bonus, but would be hard to hold as they can be attacked from any of the same type of airbase and also from the ground inside the bombing zones.

[Industrial Helix]

I like the above idea of the planes, ect. I think that would be quite cool.

I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.

Also, you guys might want to try a signature with a link to the map to try and drum up some support for this map... there's not a whole lot of people posting in support and that could really stagnate your progress.

[grifftron]

FD just PM me if you want me to add that stuff you posted above, i am a little busy this new year but i should be able to get some down to some time this month.

-griff

[FarangDemon]

I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.

Ok I think we'll formulate something like Berlin - we can ditch Thai, Laos, Cambodian, North and South Vietnamese flags and represent them as contiguous territories of a bonus region. Could do something like hold any 4 Cambodian for a bonus, hold 5 Laos (must include Plain of Jars), hold 5 South Vietnamese....

We'd retain the symbols for airbases, US Army, Montagnards and VC.

[FarangDemon]

I've made a rough sketch of a version with contiguous regions. It is very hideous.

Click image to enlarge.

Houaphan is shaded in because I made some messups and it makes it easier to see its boundaries.

Click image to enlarge.

Grifftron, if this is too rough to work with, let me know and I can make another version that would be more readable.

The borders I have that are thick (between Thailand and Laos) are supposed to represent the Mekong. The borders I have that are thick with jagged lines just means impassable, we can figure out how to graphically represent it later.

I kept all the territ names the same, except changed Kampong Thom to Siem Reap. Hopefully you can match my chicken scratches with the names on the old version of the map, so you'll know how to spell it.

I am thinking that the US Army regions and Lima Site 85 will not count toward the country bonuses. They all represent point locations as opposed to larger regions, so that is kind of intuitive.

[grifftron]

I think I could work with it FD... we might have to do this by email again until we get something solid if we are going to change it to a pan handle type map, it looks like the game play is changed completely with a glance at it... I will have to work on it when i get a long period of time that i can just sit down and work on just this, lately i have had just short periods of free time so ill try to get it in sometime soon i hope.

-griff

[FarangDemon]

I've decided to do a 2nd draft of the rework using google maps geocoding. Better to wait for that rather than attempt to decipher my notes. This is way more accurate than they were anyway.

[theBastard]

the gameplay looks interesting. just I support Helix - do map with territories. there could be great impassables by jungle, rivers. the routes look bad for me...

good luck.