[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[Victor Sullivan]

No, the table of researches and values a few posts above that.

I found it, thanks.

[OliverFA]

Some potential things to add to the to do list...

Basic Mining bonuses also need to be discussed, due to the zeppelin change
Doomsday auto deploy and neutral needs to be discussed, though could be done before beta testing
Propaganda may need discussing, though I can't remember at this point. What happened to the neutral countries being worth +2?

All the technologies values are still open to discussion. That's why I have marked them as "No" in the "Final" column.

I think we'll start the discussion with the tech that has bigger consensus: Secret Conscription and Open Conscription. So we can start closing subjects.

I have added the propaganada subject to the "To decide list". Will post all tree tables together in my last post today.

[OliverFA]

I made them up? Was trying to be relatively location agnostic, though they seem to strike a balance between African-sounding and European-sounding.

Ah. I was gonna say change Wilbon to something else, cuz I thought it was to close in name to SWinton, but I suppose it really doesn't matter, just me being nitpicky...

I can see what you mean. Both names share many letters in very similar places. Changing the name is just a Search and Replace operation, so it's not a big deal to change it. Maybe Warton and Swinton?

Would someone mind posting a list of the different techs and their tentative neutral counts? I feel like OliverFA already did this, but I thought I'd ask. That way I can give you more educated comments.

I'll regularly post all three tables each time so they can be easily found. If you want to play with values yourself, you can do it here http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/RCDashboard.xlsx in the "Tech Bonus and Cost" tab.

[OliverFA]

One thing that I think would be good to figure out is what of the to-do list things would be required to get the Gameplay stamp for the map. Not that I'm terribly concerned about getting the stamp itself sooner than later, but I think that it would provide some good guidance and direction to what should be taken care of now to allow the map to progress and what can wait until later.

Any thoughts on what should be done now and what could be done later? I'll be taking some time to go over everything myself and get some thoughts together, but probably won't be able to post my own thoughts until Tuesday some time, as the next couple days are pretty busy for me and it would be good to get the conversation going before then.

It's a good idea. However almost everything is done in the XML file. Only the coordinates and the adjacencies, plus the Deep Mining tech.

If I reach a point when I have nothing else to do, I'll create the 6 granular version for reduced size.

Of course that does not count any change we need to do. But changes are a lot faster.

Here are the 3 tables, the XML version for today (added continents bonuses and revised objectived) and the XLS link for the tech values.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

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http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.16.XML
http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/RCDashboard.xlsx

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

One thing that I think would be good to figure out is what of the to-do list things would be required to get the Gameplay stamp for the map. Not that I'm terribly concerned about getting the stamp itself sooner than later, but I think that it would provide some good guidance and direction to what should be taken care of now to allow the map to progress and what can wait until later.

Any thoughts on what should be done now and what could be done later? I'll be taking some time to go over everything myself and get some thoughts together, but probably won't be able to post my own thoughts until Tuesday some time, as the next couple days are pretty busy for me and it would be good to get the conversation going before then.

It's a good idea. However almost everything is done in the XML file. Only the coordinates and the adjacencies, plus the Deep Mining tech.

If I reach a point when I have nothing else to do, I'll create the 6 granular version for reduced size.

Of course that does not count any change we need to do. But changes are a lot faster.

I had meant what things that need to be discussed, as far as potential changes or gameplay issues (propaganda, doomsday, mining bonuses, etc) go.

[carlpgoodrich]

I'm a bit confused. I know I joined this discussion rather late... but I've been going off the map on the first page for the techs other than the ones we were discussing. It seems like my understanding of a lot of the techs has been different from what is on the table above. Here is a rundown of my thoughts:

Standing army: Good. Can make this final as far as I'm concerned.

Secret Conscription: I guess this was changed due to XML constraints? I suggest making it +1 for every 5 territories instead of 6. This will make it a bit more relevant in the beginning (it's supposed to be a relatively easy tech after all), and it will make the benefits come at different intervals as Open Conscription.

Open Conscriotion: Good.

National Pride: I really like this the way it was before (i.e. where you have to hold your entire homeland to get the bonus). My reasoning is that this is one of the only techs that can really be broken. There should be a major penalty for someone invading your homeland, even if its just one territory.

Propaganda: Here, I feel the opposite. Why do you have to hold someone else's entire homeland to get this bonus? Propaganda usually is an underground movement that affects certain regions at a time, and why should you be forced to defend all the borders on someone else's homeland? I think this should be +1 for every 2 foreign homeland territories.

Activated Reserves: Why was this reduced from +8 to +3? For an advanced tech, this seems very weak. Also, at 30 neutral, it takes 10 turns to be repaid. +8 with a cost of 40 works great for me.

Mining: why are both techs only +1? I thought they would both be +2 or +2 and +3. I will think about this more later, but +1 is pretty weak.

Its late and I have work to do. More later.

[TaCktiX]

That version is horrifically out of date. I'm going to post a new version early this week even if it kills me, to show how much has changed since the last draft.

[OliverFA]

I'm a bit confused. I know I joined this discussion rather late... but I've been going off the map on the first page for the techs other than the ones we were discussing. It seems like my understanding of a lot of the techs has been different from what is on the table above. Here is a rundown of my thoughts:

Don't worry. Some techs have changed a lot. That's why I created the table with the proposed values. For the moment all those values are just a proposal. We can discuss any change in such values.

Standing army: Good. Can make this final as far as I'm concerned.

I am afraid that Standing Army and Activated Reserves maybe have values which are too low. +3 and +6 armies respectively, compared with the hig values of all the other techs, may be too few.

Unless those +3 and +6 armies really make a difference in the early game and in extreme situations, they will be useless techs.

However, I think it's better to close Secret and Open Conscription techs before discussing about those, because all four techs are intimately related. Will start discussion right after writing this post.

Secret Conscription: I guess this was changed due to XML constraints? I suggest making it +1 for every 5 territories instead of 6. This will make it a bit more relevant in the beginning (it's supposed to be a relatively easy tech after all), and it will make the benefits come at different intervals as Open Conscription.

Open Conscriotion: Good.

We still don't know if they will have to be changed due to XML limitations. Right now, the version you can see if the full version, with granularity of 1 territory. But the total file size is very big, which raises concerns that it could have performance issues. A possible solution to this issue (if it finally happens) is to implement those two techs with a 6 territory granularity.

National Pride: I really like this the way it was before (i.e. where you have to hold your entire homeland to get the bonus). My reasoning is that this is one of the only techs that can really be broken. There should be a major penalty for someone invading your homeland, even if its just one territory.

Propaganda: Here, I feel the opposite. Why do you have to hold someone else's entire homeland to get this bonus? Propaganda usually is an underground movement that affects certain regions at a time, and why should you be forced to defend all the borders on someone else's homeland? I think this should be +1 for every 2 foreign homeland territories.

I followed the approach from other conquest-type maps. In such maps, continents are broken in parts. But maybe it would be advisable to turn them into full continents to differentiate them from open and secret consctiption techs. I don't have a definite opinion about it. What I think is that if we change them to full continents, then we can add neutral countries. If they stay as progresive continents I think that adding all neutral countries is too much, and too similar to the conscriptions techs.

Activated Reserves: Why was this reduced from +8 to +3? For an advanced tech, this seems very weak. Also, at 30 neutral, it takes 10 turns to be repaid. +8 with a cost of 40 works great for me.

The approach was to place all bonuses in the same table so they could be easily compared. And yes, when this tech is compared to all the other techs, it seems that it could be raised a little bit.

Mining: why are both techs only +1? I thought they would both be +2 or +2 and +3. I will think about this more later, but +1 is pretty weak.

Deep Mining tentive value is +2. So if you have both minings you get +3 per each mine.

Its late and I have work to do. More later.

Thanks for all your comments

[carlpgoodrich]

For now, I will limit my comments to standing army/activated reserves and the conscription techs:

When determining how powerful to make the different techs, I think it is important to get a wide variety (i.e. have some techs that are relatively weak but cheap and some that are very powerful but expensive). Standing army is relatively weak, but I think thats a good thing, although maybe the cost should be brought down a bit. I forget, how many troops will the Labs start with? I think the cost of Standing army should be the initial troops on the lab + 2 or 3.

Is activated reserves worth +3 (so standing army +activated reserves = +6) or is it worth +6 (so standing army + activated reserves = +9)? The table indicates the first but your post suggests it might be the second. As an advanced tech, I think Activated reserves should be +6 or +8 by itself. These two techs are the only ones that give a benefit regardless of what land you own, which makes them more powerful, but in late games when bonuses are really large, activated reserves needs to have a large benefit to be worth it.

For the conscription, I don't have much preference either way. Probably whatever makes the XML more efficient is the best solution. Am I correct in guessing that these techs are the largest to implement?

[OliverFA]

I had meant what things that need to be discussed, as far as potential changes or gameplay issues (propaganda, doomsday, mining bonuses, etc) go.

As I said, I think we'll start discussing the Open / Secret Conscription techs together with Standing Army and Activated Reserved Tech

[OliverFA]

For now, I will limit my comments to standing army/activated reserves and the conscription techs:

When determining how powerful to make the different techs, I think it is important to get a wide variety (i.e. have some techs that are relatively weak but cheap and some that are very powerful but expensive). Standing army is relatively weak, but I think thats a good thing, although maybe the cost should be brought down a bit. I forget, how many troops will the Labs start with? I think the cost of Standing army should be the initial troops on the lab + 2 or 3.

Is activated reserves worth +3 (so standing army +activated reserves = +6) or is it worth +6 (so standing army + activated reserves = +9)? The table indicates the first but your post suggests it might be the second. As an advanced tech, I think Activated reserves should be +6 or +8 by itself. These two techs are the only ones that give a benefit regardless of what land you own, which makes them more powerful, but in late games when bonuses are really large, activated reserves needs to have a large benefit to be worth it.

For the conscription, I don't have much preference either way. Probably whatever makes the XML more efficient is the best solution. Am I correct in guessing that these techs are the largest to implement?

I think it makes sense to have weak techs as well as powerful ones. Will ahve that in mind

[TaCktiX]

At long last, a graphical update!

Version 4
Updates:
- Rearranged and clarified almost every research
- Adjusted spacing of every research
- Added Research headings to aid understanding
- Added frames as background for each research to make them readable
- Added additional pipes as flavor
- Revamped the legend
- Adjusted the bridges on the south side of the map
- Adjusted neutral counts to reflect current progress

Provisional Values

Click image to enlarge.

Blank

Click image to enlarge.

Gameplay Concerns
- Doomsday at 200/+75 good? I want to strike a balance between "hard to get" and "no one will ever go for."
- Is everything clear? Not "absolutely stark glass" clear, but easily deduced by information presented on the map.
Graphical Concerns
- I hate the bridges. They just didn't turn out as well as I wanted them too and I likely will be going with a schematic-type bridge instead of a realistic one with massive downscaling.
- The geographical map is...tan. No one wants to conquer a desert, so I need to add some color without deluging the map with too much detail. It's on the border of too much already.
- The signatures now stand out too much. I likely will be moving to something that "works into" the background, something like an embossed look.

And for Gee Whiz information, my source PSD has 1667 layers. Yeah.

[Evil DIMwit]

I don't see any obvious crippling problems here. I foresee a fair bit of Beta values adjustments, but nothing I can predict.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Secret Conscription: I guess this was changed due to XML constraints? I suggest making it +1 for every 5 territories instead of 6. This will make it a bit more relevant in the beginning (it's supposed to be a relatively easy tech after all), and it will make the benefits come at different intervals as Open Conscription.

Open Conscriotion: Good.

Secret Conscription is the same as is listed. You get 1 guy for every 3 spots normally, meaning you get 2 for every 6. If you add +1 for every 6, you get 3 for every 6, or 1 for every 2.

I need to check Open Conscription, but it was broken at one point. The tech only added enough to bring it up to +5 for every 6, which would not be 1 for every 1.

I do have some other thoughts on these techs and neutral values, but I'll need to post them tomorrow when it's not 5am here

[OliverFA]

At long last, a graphical update!

Wonderful!!!



I like the Control Panel/Cockpit look of the researchs in this version a lot more than the previous one.

Also, I like that territories in the geographic part are very well defined and there is very easy to see which territories attack and get attacked by each territory.

Does it mean that as soon as we have the XML file ready we can start the test?

[OliverFA]

I need to check Open Conscription, but it was broken at one point. The tech only added enough to bring it up to +5 for every 6, which would not be 1 for every 1.

Do you mean it was broken in the XML file? Or in its concept?

And by the way. Good night

[ender516]

A newcomer, looking only at the map, might have difficulty determining which Advanced Research corresponds to which Basic Research, as far as "A Basic Research can attack its Advanced one." And by the way, I think "assault" is preferred to "attack" for copyright reasons.

[natty dread]

I think "assault" is preferred to "attack" for copyright reasons.

No, it's just "official CC lingo", nothing to do with copyright AFAIK.

[ender516]

I thought all that official lingo was introduced to distance the site from H*sbr*. In any event, it is probably better to use the official lingo where possible, and "assault" is not much wider than "attack".

[OliverFA]

A newcomer, looking only at the map, might have difficulty determining which Advanced Research corresponds to which Basic Research, as far as "A Basic Research can attack its Advanced one." And by the way, I think "assault" is preferred to "attack" for copyright reasons.

Maybe colour code could be used to help newcomers? Use a different colour for each tech pair so it's easy to match the basic version with the advanced one.

Alternatively, use some icon that gets placed next to both techs (the basic and the advanced)

[ender516]

A newcomer, looking only at the map, might have difficulty determining which Advanced Research corresponds to which Basic Research, as far as "A Basic Research can attack its Advanced one." And by the way, I think "assault" is preferred to "attack" for copyright reasons.

Maybe colour code could be used to help newcomers? Use a different colour for each tech pair so it's easy to match the basic version with the advanced one.

Alternatively, use some icon that gets placed next to both techs (the basic and the advanced)

Maybe both ideas at once: a silver icon next to the basic and a gold one next to the advanced.

[TaCktiX]

How about neither and note the fact that most research pairs share part of the name (Mining > Deep Mining, Secret Conscription > Open Conscription)? The only ones that don't are Standing Army and Activated Reserves, which have the same bonus of +x reinforcements. Newcomers != morons. Only clarification I NEED to add is that the Doomsday Device can be attacked by the Lab (it has no basic version).

EDIT: Fixed to "assault" and added the note about Doomsday. Also will be editing my update post to note concerns I personally have.

[ender516]

How about neither and note the fact that most research pairs share part of the name (Mining > Deep Mining, Secret Conscription > Open Conscription)? The only ones that don't are Standing Army and Activated Reserves, which have the same bonus of +x reinforcements. Newcomers != morons. Only clarification I NEED to add is that the Doomsday Device can be attacked by the Lab (it has no basic version).

EDIT: Fixed to "assault" and added the note about Doomsday. Also will be editing my update post to note concerns I personally have.

I think by saying "most research pairs", you are overselling the generality of the situation. There are six Basic Researches and five Advanced Researches. With two pairings with related names, and one pairing without the advantage of related names, that still leaves three orphan Basic Researches that people will wonder about. If every Basic Research had a corresponding Advanced Research, then the existing simple statement would cover it, but I think the current situation could use a little clarification.

[TaCktiX]

I have special clarifications for both of the other Advanced Researches in the legend (Doomsday one is added on my local copy, it isn't on the map above). So with 2 crossed off the list of HAVING a Basic (since I note that a Lab can attack them specifically), two that word-match the Basic, and one that functionality-matches the Basic, we're all out of advanced researches to mistakenly pair with Zeppelin Strikes, National Pride, or Propaganda. I know it's been a trend for other mapmakers to spell EVERYTHING out, but I'm not a fan of that mode of thinking. R&C isn't an easy map to play, and the thought required to decide what stuff to go for will very likely provide the deductive reasoning required to figure out similarities.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I need to check Open Conscription, but it was broken at one point. The tech only added enough to bring it up to +5 for every 6, which would not be 1 for every 1.

Do you mean it was broken in the XML file? Or in its concept?

And by the way. Good night

I just checked over it and realized that Open Conscription doesn't cancel out Secret Conscription, so for every 6 territories, it should be right. That being said, I would think that having Open Conscription give an extra 1 for every 2 would produce a more accurate result than 3 for every 6. If someone had an odd number of territories and had say 40 territories. With 3 for every 6, the bonus would be 18, whereas using 1 for every 2, you would have a bonus of 20.

I wonder, with the current ability of CC's XML engine, can you designate a group of 174 territories and call it 'Geographical Map' and then apply the 'Any X' to that group over and over again for Open Conscription and Secret Conscription for whatever the correct adjustment is?