[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

How's the map coming along TaCktiX?

Are there any details that we should be discussing or are we mostly waiting to see how much can be fit onto the map?

I've been starting to go through R&C discussion withdrawl, with there being no new posts for more than 3 days now

[TaCktiX]

I'm still trying to mentally collate what-all needs changing, and I'm going through the mapmaker phase of "damnit, I don't want to change all that yet." One of the crummy things about CC mapmaking is reaching that point where your perfect design vision has to be broken over the knee of gameplay improvement.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I'm still trying to mentally collate what-all needs changing, and I'm going through the mapmaker phase of "damnit, I don't want to change all that yet." One of the crummy things about CC mapmaking is reaching that point where your perfect design vision has to be broken over the knee of gameplay improvement.

What is your 'perfect design vision' and what parts are breaking it for gameplay improvement? Are there any chances that we can keep the design vision while keeping the gameplay good?

[TaCktiX]

No. Some of my graphical elements were made before we changed TSF's purpose and obviated the need for it having its own space. I was hoping that only some neutral adjustments and maybe some textual changes would be all that was required to change the map to Gameplay ready. Not so.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

No. Some of my graphical elements were made before we changed TSF's purpose and obviated the need for it having its own space. I was hoping that only some neutral adjustments and maybe some textual changes would be all that was required to change the map to Gameplay ready. Not so.

What are the changes that need to happen to the map at this point? Are there any spacing issues that you could use help trying to figure out?

[Victor Sullivan]

Thanks Tanarri, I've commented on the things in your quote in blue:

Wowzers, I've missed a lot! Would someone mind summing up what we're discussing (SOOOOOOOO much text to read...) and what's happening with the zeppelins? Thanks.

-Sully

I've got to get to bed, so I'll comment on the other posts tomorrow, but for Sully...

A brief summary of the last few pages would be...

A list of things that I think we've come to a concenus about

1) A new advanced tech will be added called Deep Mining. It will increase the benefits of the mines. Neutral value and exact bonus is still being discussed. Options put forth are 'double mine bonus', +2 per mine, +3 per mine, and an increasing bonus where the first mine is worth +1, second +2, third +3, etc. I think the last has been decided againstt due to space constraints for the explanation
Sounds shweet! I thought the mines seemed a little under-used. I say go with +2 or +3 a mine, less confusing that way (which is especially important for a map such as this). The +2 or +3 bonus would have to depend on the amount of neutrals you put on the tech.

2) Autodeploys are being removed from capitals and labs in favour of a +3 per capital deployment
Seems like a good idea, though I have to be honest, I didn't realize there was an auto-deploy

3) Neutral values are being reworked, see top of page 40 for Oliver's spreadsheet with suggestions
I will do that and get back to you.

4) Zeppelins will bombard mines, but have a much higher neutral on them... I think 50 is where we're at now.
With the implementation of the Deep Mining tech, I like it!...though I think you're overestimating it with the neutral count. 40 seems reasonable to me, since the zeppelin can't actually take over the mine.

A list of subjects that we're currently discussing:

1) Should TSFs be the prerequisite for advanced techs or should the matching basic tech be the prerequisite. I think most people are on the side of basic tech, with TaCktiX having prefernces/concerns towards TSFs being the prerequisite.
What are TSFs?

2) It is generally accepted that TSFs need to be gimped in one fashion or another. This will either be done by their becoming their own tech and have a higher neutral and no direct relationship with advanced techs or by them remaining as they are with a +3 autodeploy instead of +10. Again, I think most are leaning towards the the former, but TaCktiX prefers something like the latter.

3) There's been some discussion about neutral values and bonus amounts. I think resolving the TSF and advanced tech discussions would be better before we continue the bonus discussions too much, since some of the bonuses will likely rely on which direction those conversations go.


Did I miss anything guys? There's been so much discussion over the last week or two that I've lost track of some of it.

-Sully

[OliverFA]

I want to apologize for my comment and for my behaviour several days ago. Seen with the perspective of time, I was overreacting. I allowed some RL issues (more specifically, some job issues) to affect my behaviour here. I should have never allowed it to happen.

I apologize to everybody, and specially to TaCktiX. I am very sorry for my words.

[TaCktiX]

TSF is on the map as an abbreviation of Top Secret Facility.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Sully:

I also think that either +2 or +3 per mine for Deep Mining is the best way to go, both for simplicity and for space on the map.

For Zeppelins, I think that 40 may work as well. I think that that the 40 vs 50 vs whatever else thing is something that could be finalized during beta though. It will be so hard to balance the different techs' neutral values and bonuses until the beta phase when the map can actually be played.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I want to apologize for my comment and for my behaviour several days ago. Seen with the perspective of time, I was overreacting. I allowed some RL issues (more specifically, some job issues) to affect my behaviour here. I should have never allowed it to happen.

I apologize to everybody, and specially to TaCktiX. I am very sorry for my words.

Apology accepted Oliver. The response did seem a bit abrupt/direct and out of character. I hope things have resolved themselves at work.

[OliverFA]

I have gathered a list of everything that needs to be changed in the XML area. I will work on those items next thing.

I have also gathered a list of things that need to be decided. As subjects get closed, I will mark them as solved in the list.

Also I have the list with the techs.

I think those three lists are the best way to keep track of everything and not forget anything.

Things that need to be done next are:
-Remove automatic reinforcements
-Implement "normal" reinforcements through the geographic area.
-Remove reinforcements adjustment for tech tree (this item and the two previous one come together)
-Ensure losing condition is not having any capital
-Remove objectives (redundant with losing conditions)
-Remove capital autodeploy
-Implement capital bonus through continent
-Deep Mining tech
-Zepelling strikes (will be done with the adjacencies part)
-Territories coordinates
-Terriotires adjacencies

Things that are not needed to be known now but should be decided sometime:
-Starting neutral armies in all territories
-Tech costs (the values I placed are not set in stone. I think they would be ok, but maybe there are better values).
-Bonuses for standing army and activated reserves (currently +3 and +6 for a total of +6 and +12. Maybe it should be changed)
-Deep mining tech bonus (+2 per mine?)
-I understand that National Pride and Propaganda Bonuses are final. But place it in the list because I want to double check before closing the subject.
-Starting armies for players (currently 3 and 3. But I have no opinion on this. So maybe this could be changed)

I think I don't forget anything.

[TaCktiX]

While you're editing the XML, the homelands have names:

SWinton
Wilbon
Nar
NEdani
Esternan
SEgalo

Keeping the capitalization as is to highlight the similarity to the cardinal direction.

[OliverFA]

And the tables are here:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[OliverFA]

While you're editing the XML, the homelands have names:

SWinton
Wilbon
Nar
NEdani
Esternan
SEgalo

Keeping the capitalization as is to highlight the similarity to the cardinal direction.

Thanks! I'll add them to the ToDo list right now.

[OliverFA]

I'm still trying to mentally collate what-all needs changing, and I'm going through the mapmaker phase of "damnit, I don't want to change all that yet." One of the crummy things about CC mapmaking is reaching that point where your perfect design vision has to be broken over the knee of gameplay improvement.

And by the way. Thanks for reworking the map to fit all the changes. I understand it's a very hard task. We should not make any more changes like that from now on.

[OliverFA]

Today I had a productive day and managed to do some tasks:

- Remove automatic reinforcements
- Remove tech tree reinforcements adjustment
- Implement normal reinforcements through geographic territories
- Renamed all territories to their proper names (like "SWinton Capital" instead of "SW Capital")

Click image to enlarge.

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.15.XML

[Victor Sullivan]

While you're editing the XML, the homelands have names:

SWinton
Wilbon
Nar
NEdani
Esternan
SEgalo

Keeping the capitalization as is to highlight the similarity to the cardinal direction.

Where'd you get these names?

[TaCktiX]

I made them up? Was trying to be relatively location agnostic, though they seem to strike a balance between African-sounding and European-sounding.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Some potential things to add to the to do list...

Basic Mining bonuses also need to be discussed, due to the zeppelin change
Doomsday auto deploy and neutral needs to be discussed, though could be done before beta testing
Propaganda may need discussing, though I can't remember at this point. What happened to the neutral countries being worth +2?

[Victor Sullivan]

I made them up? Was trying to be relatively location agnostic, though they seem to strike a balance between African-sounding and European-sounding.

Ah. I was gonna say change Wilbon to something else, cuz I thought it was to close in name to SWinton, but I suppose it really doesn't matter, just me being nitpicky...

Some potential things to add to the to do list...

Basic Mining bonuses also need to be discussed, due to the zeppelin change
Doomsday auto deploy and neutral needs to be discussed, though could be done before beta testing
Propaganda may need discussing, though I can't remember at this point. What happened to the neutral countries being worth +2?

Would someone mind posting a list of the different techs and their tentative neutral counts? I feel like OliverFA already did this, but I thought I'd ask. That way I can give you more educated comments.

[TaCktiX]

It's 5 replies up in this thread.

[Victor Sullivan]

It's 5 replies up in this thread.

Are you talking about the XML link he gave? That made my eyes go wonky...

[TaCktiX]

No, the table of researches and values a few posts above that.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

No, the table of researches and values a few posts above that.

Also at the top of page 40, if that's easier for you to find.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

One thing that I think would be good to figure out is what of the to-do list things would be required to get the Gameplay stamp for the map. Not that I'm terribly concerned about getting the stamp itself sooner than later, but I think that it would provide some good guidance and direction to what should be taken care of now to allow the map to progress and what can wait until later.

Any thoughts on what should be done now and what could be done later? I'll be taking some time to go over everything myself and get some thoughts together, but probably won't be able to post my own thoughts until Tuesday some time, as the next couple days are pretty busy for me and it would be good to get the conversation going before then.