SIEGE! - PSD available - [Quenched]

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:49 pm

Im not sure if its just me, but the straight borders at the bottom of the map makes it look bad

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:59 pm

ok i erased some of those borders... im not sure, it maight be too confusing for those with less brain power. i also added a 5 territory to the great hall making it harder to take

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:03 pm

Those trees look great now.

luckiekevin · Post by **luckiekevin** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:09 pm

Keep up the good work!!! This is looking great so far.

dim - sorry for not seeing your first post about trebuchet attacks

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:31 am

ok i added the numbers, while it would just be numbers in the image the xml would have names so it would look like "Player attacked West Ward 1 from Outer Wall 1..."

but i was thinking some areas really dont need numbers if we just use our heads. for example the thrown and lose the numbers and it can be assumbed that the top is Northern Throne and the bottom Southern Throne. Also West Outer Wall and East Outer Wall can be assumed. And since there is only 1 gate, the gate can just be Gate instead of Gate 1. I suppose the Great Hall could be South West Great Hall, South Great Hall South East Great Hall, North East Great Hall, and North West Great Hall.

i dont think people would get too confused... thoughts?

luckiekevin · Post by **luckiekevin** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:56 am

I wouldn't have a problem with you taking the numbers away from the places you mentioned but am almost positive that a handful of people are going to want them put in for consistency. If for any reason, every map has a label that corresponds with the country. Or at least I think they do.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:34 am

I really dislike this idea until now.

Beyond the lack of appeal Im feeling, the playability looks simply terrible. Almost all "continents" have all their territories as border ones, it just doesnt happen to the Tunnel (which is completely linear), and to Forest and Plains. All other continents have all territories in their borders. Look, for example, how is difficult to expand from the throne, the castle is simply wasted: except for the throne, the gate and the outer wall, all continents are useless (even these ones are only holdable due to tiny number of territories).

In fact, the visual is also not good. For the external lands, just the forest has good textures. The swamp doesnt seem a swamp, and the plains looks like a desert. But much worse is the castle. It looks like a hat. What castle would use a stupid design like that? Plus, where are the towers? Where are the siege machines (catapults, siege towers, etc)? Graphics are not helping the appeal.

Anyway, do this seem a siege to you? For a siege, I would think:
- castle is weaker than the surrounding lands (but I dont know if this is happening, because the castle have the small bonuses, like 2 armies for the throne, 2 territories, and the gate, that you can start with; only the forest seems a threat after you get the castle, assuming its possible).
- castle should be easier to defend; but, at other hand, should give almost no troop bonus, due to the siege.

So, I think the castle should make possible an easier expansion from the throne (possibly), instead of being a no man land, but giving smaller bonuses. The surrounding lands would need some more well designed continents, to make sure someone could acumulate troops out of the castle too... Maybe we could have a camp in SE and another one in SW.

Instead of the small bridges, you could add catapults. So from more distant territories, invaders could attack the wall. Plus, the castle would have as exits just the gate and the tunnel (that of course is related to the castle), because its under siege.

Some ideas you can think about

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:13 pm

Marvaddin wrote:I really dislike this idea until now.

Beyond the lack of appeal Im feeling, the playability looks simply terrible. Almost all "continents" have all their territories as border ones, it just doesnt happen to the Tunnel (which is completely linear), and to Forest and Plains. All other continents have all territories in their borders. Look, for example, how is difficult to expand from the throne, the castle is simply wasted: except for the throne, the gate and the outer wall, all continents are useless (even these ones are only holdable due to tiny number of territories).

im not sure what your talking about, the only continents surrounded on all borders is the gate, and throne. I think there is good playability, i couldn't quite understand the 'exapnd from the throne' comment. are you saying it is difficult, or it isnt.

Marvaddin wrote: In fact, the visual is also not good. For the external lands, just the forest has good textures. The swamp doesnt seem a swamp, and the plains looks like a desert. But much worse is the castle. It looks like a hat. What castle would use a stupid design like that? Plus, where are the towers? Where are the siege machines (catapults, siege towers, etc)? Graphics are not helping the appeal.

yeah, i'll just build a castle in my backyard and cultivate a prairie, swamp and forest, so i can take some pictures and then the map will be photorealistic enough for CC. And its not a castle, its a castle-type. If it were a castle i'd put catapults and seige towers and wizards and maidens dangling their hair from a high window, and whatever else you think belongs in a castle. but its not castle, its a castle-lite. judging from your own Triassic map i'll largely ingore your graphic sensibilities.

Marvaddin wrote: Anyway, do this seem a siege to you? For a siege, I would think:
- castle is weaker than the surrounding lands (but I dont know if this is happening, because the castle have the small bonuses, like 2 armies for the throne, 2 territories, and the gate, that you can start with; only the forest seems a threat after you get the castle, assuming its possible).
- castle should be easier to defend; but, at other hand, should give almost no troop bonus, due to the siege.

i dont think the castle is weaker than the surrounding lands at all. the gate and throne are the easiest bonuses to get. once you have the throne, the great hall shouldnt be too hard. and the outer wall are only 1 territory per side, and only attackable from 2 territories on the outside, while they can attack 6 +gate.

on the outside, the forrest is the only bonus thats relatively easy to get. so i think its pretty balanced.

Marvaddin wrote: So, I think the castle should make possible an easier expansion from the throne (possibly), instead of being a no man land, but giving smaller bonuses. The surrounding lands would need some more well designed continents, to make sure someone could acumulate troops out of the castle too... Maybe we could have a camp in SE and another one in SW.

yes i was thinking of the camp idea, it may happen.

Marvaddin wrote: Instead of the small bridges, you could add catapults. So from more distant territories, invaders could attack the wall. Plus, the castle would have as exits just the gate and the tunnel (that of course is related to the castle), because its under siege.

a catapult would be a good idea if it didnt allow for the dumping of armies inside the castle, which is exactly what would happen.

Marvaddin wrote: Some ideas you can think about

thanks, the graphics are fine in my opinion, the plability may need some tweaking tho.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 pm

Ok so now there are stairs. The walls can only be attack via the stairs or the small bridges. The walls can attack via the stairs bridges or where noted with arrows. This gives the two wards some cover and should be easier to hold. this also makes the great hall much easier to hold now that it can only be attacked from two areas, assuming you've taken the throne first. thoughts?

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:51 pm

I think that makes the bonus on the hall + throne too much. They will most certainly be taken together.

I think the swamp will be too hard to hold. All its territories are borders.

Love the stairs!

Gozar

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:06 pm

again, much improved since last i looked... nice work. I agree with widow that throne/great hall might be best as one bonus - as a two territory bonus, it's way too likely that somebody will start with the throne.

And I still like the idea of a one-way tunnel, to keep the action out on the walls where it should be.

for dummies · Post by **for dummies** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:11 pm

the swamp would be way to hard to hold. cut back on its borders somehow

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:29 pm

mibi wrote: im not sure what your talking about, the only continents surrounded on all borders is the gate, and throne. I think there is good playability, i couldn't quite understand the 'exapnd from the throne' comment. are you saying it is difficult, or it isnt.

Really? I would like if you could tell me what territories of the Great hall (and Inner Wall, and East Ward, and Outer Wall, Midlands and Swamp) are non borders ones... And the comment obviously said it was difficult to expand (ok, its easier with the stairs). Anyway, good playability??

yeah, i'll just build a castle in my backyard and cultivate a prairie, swamp and forest, so i can take some pictures and then the map will be photorealistic enough for CC. And its not a castle, its a castle-type. If it were a castle i'd put catapults and seige towers and wizards and maidens dangling their hair from a high window, and whatever else you think belongs in a castle. but its not castle, its a castle-lite. judging from your own Triassic map i'll largely ingore your graphic sensibilities.

Feeling bad, darling? Haha, if you cant do it better, you can just admit it, I have no use for your jokes. Sure, I have limited graphics skills, but looks like you also have the same problem... Any comments to my map, use the proper thread, baby

(although I dont understand whats so difficult about look for better textures)

i dont think the castle is weaker than the surrounding lands at all. the gate and throne are the easiest bonuses to get. once you have the throne, the great hall shouldnt be too hard. and the outer wall are only 1 territory per side, and only attackable from 2 territories on the outside, while they can attack 6 +gate.
on the outside, the forrest is the only bonus thats relatively easy to get. so i think its pretty balanced.

Read again what you just wrote and feel the lack of balance. I was not saying the castle was too weak, because I see the easy bonuses. But who would siege a castle that is stronger than the invaders? In a normal siege, the castle would be weaker than the invaders, dont you agree? I think the castle having 7 bonuses, some of them very easy, while the outside has 5 bonuses (including the tunnel, but this one should be counted for the castle), and most of them difficult, its no good. Now, the castle is even more stronger, with the stairs. How about redesign the map adding more territories to outside, and with a smaller castle?

a catapult would be a good idea if it didnt allow for the dumping of armies inside the castle, which is exactly what would happen.

I still think we could have a easy to take and defend castle, but hard to expand. And the catapults could be an interesting idea to attack the walls... Offensive catapults only, I was suggesting... Or we can think about archers too.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:41 pm

ok the forest has one les territory now. also the throne bonus has been reduced, but an added bonus for holding the throne and all the walls. i like it. maybe it should be six tho

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:46 pm

Visuals are shaping up well... ignore Marv on that one (and not to be underhand but you are right about the triassic map... I don't think it has a patch on this one)...I love the textures of the castle!

As for playability, he's usually prertty on point so I'd pay attention to his comments in that regard.

Just a couple of thoughts... Just putting it out there for consideration but what if the tunnel was one way between swamp 4 and tunnel 5 (swamp>tunnel). This would eliminate a border for the swamp (which is all borders at the moment) but the tunnel would still be holdable by anyone, plus it would be a bit more realisitc. Tunnels are dug under castle walls to attack, not defend.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:13 pm

i love the idea but i hate the implementation. eventhough the graphics are getting better and better and the gameplay is begining to be improved also, i still hate the fact that this does not inspire a siege at all.

the castle design is horrible. i've never seen a castle with the form of a semi circle. i've never seen a castle without towers. and who told you a castle is made by a throne a yard and some walls? the castle should be the heart and soul of this map. it should get the respect it deserves.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:35 pm

ok some big changes... there is now a camp continent with a small bonus but a greater bonus when paired with the gate. this should strengthen the outer areas as well as put some incentive to siege the gate.

for those complaining that this doesnt look like a castle your right, but its not a castle. its castle like. however i will take the word castle out of the topic. its meant to be a defensible compound, similar to Helms Deep if your familiar with that.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:37 pm

That.s fine. I don't think the visuals are that bad at all really. The helm's deep analogy should help a lot of people visualise it better. It was what i was thinking of from the start...

There's probably still room for a siege map of a different kind on the site as well to be honest.

New cont is good by the way.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:42 pm

Guiscard wrote: Just a couple of thoughts... Just putting it out there for consideration but what if the tunnel was one way between swamp 4 and tunnel 5 (swamp>tunnel). This would eliminate a border for the swamp (which is all borders at the moment) but the tunnel would still be holdable by anyone, plus it would be a bit more realisitc. Tunnels are dug under castle walls to attack, not defend.

the only problem with this is that everyone who starts in the tunnel would have to dump out intot he great hall, which might be interesting but would certainly make the great hall and throne less defendable.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:38 pm

How about just some turret/tower graphics on the walls?

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:30 pm

About the graphics, I like the castle textures too... Just dislike how bright is that purple in the Hall... and the throne of course. And the camp is good enough, the forest too... The tunnel is also ok, although it could have some bones in the ground, lol... But then the swamp, plains and midlands are too bad... I suggest trying to find something more alike to the other areas, because to me its not coherent having that forest, and then those plains.

And I agree with Dim, the idea is not being implemented like a Siege. So, I dont think its just to change the title... The Siege idea is very interesting, and could work, if implemented diferently. I dont think that create strange bonuses, like Camp + Gate will help with this, in fact there are currently 13 bonuses, and we could really have less.

I will try to design, in poor graphics, using paint, some suggestions to keep the siege idea going... I will try to post it later tonight.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:39 pm

Here. Forget the graphics. Also, the outside continents can be rearranged, no problem about that. The main ideas are:

- The castle is simple to take. The expansion is easier.
- Once its taken, it can just be attacked in the 4 walls sections, by the enemies "catapults" (red dots). However, it just can attack from the tunnel (one route) and from the gate
- Catapults can just attack the walls sections of their respective side, of course.
- The orange and the brown areas are enemies camps. Both areas have other areas that are holdable from there, to make the conquest possible.

Result... The "king" in the castle need take it quickly (of course some intermediary bonuses will help a lot), defend the walls and start to move over the enemies camps and catapults. The enemies commanders need to control the camp, get another support area, and then concentrate in attack the walls using the catapults, and blocking the gate and the tunnel...

So, yes, the map will be concentrated in 3 major areas: castle, and 2 enemies camps... The west camp seems to be in a easier condition, once the tunnel is to the east... We can think about something to add balance. Anyway, I think it helps the Siege idea.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:39 pm

i find it surprising that 80% of the maps on CC even got quenched considering how picky people are about graphics.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:44 pm

mibi wrote:i find it surprising that 80% of the maps on CC even got quenched considering how picky people are about graphics.

Yeah, I don't know what happened, it would be a different world if we all could make maps with the quality of the Middle East map and get them in.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:45 pm

there were different times back then

some maps on the site would be laughed at if they were presented now.