[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[carlpgoodrich]

Here is my suggestion. The mining tech is really really cool, and will force people to expand probably more than anything else. How about another type of terrain, maybe "farms" or something like that, which provide a similar benefit, but need a different tech to get the benefit. Thoughts?

Hi Carl. The problem that I see with this is that we are just having two techs which are the same. If we could come with an advanced version of Mining tech (like open conscription is an advanced version of secret conscription) that would be cool. But I think it would be better to avoid having the same tech twice . What do you think?

That's fine. I wrote that thinking that we might need another tech. There are definitely ways to make it different from mining (higher neutral on territory, higher neutral on tech, more bonus if held, fewer of them, etc.), but if we are keeping zeppelins and the doomsday device then there is no need.

[Victor Sullivan]

Whew! Lot of stuff to comment on. I won't quote Oliver's long posts, just to save space

First, I think the objective is a bad idea. It seems like it dumbs down the Doomsday Device, which can bombard everything. If it can bombards everything, why make an objective? With the objective, it seems like you could fairly easily win without the Device.

Second, I like Z2 best easily, but neither AS nor NA seem like good ideas, as I don't see either of them being beneficial to the gameplay. I could go into detail, but it's late...

-Sully

[Teflon Kris]

Congrats on a really unique map that I am going to enjoy researching for the next few days, or maybe i could make it a post-grad!



I'll comment more when I have a clue.

[OliverFA]

Of the three zeppelin choices, Z2 is the best IMHO.

So it seems that there is some consensus about Z2. Let's see if someone else has a good reason in favor of Z1 or Z3. But right now Z2 is my favourite choice.

However, I still don't see it as being anything more than a defensive "last stand" tech. Someone takes my homeland so its time to research zeppelins and bombard their defense so I can get my homeland back. Maybe this is a good thing, maybe not.

The problem with making it just a defensive tech is that, as you point, if you lose your capital you'll have only 3 armies to deploy. So it's a pointless defense. Maybe we should make the +6 and +12 techs work always. Even if you don't have your capital. This would also make those techs useful. Because they become weak in comparison with the with bonuses of the others.

Negative Autodeploy: This is a good way to keep people from stockpiling on the zeppelins. However, I would just stockpile on the Lab (which gets the autodeploy anyways) and then only "research" the zeppelins after someone takes my homeland.

You are right. This negative autodeploy idea does not work the first time. But if you stack a lot of armies in your lab you are paying the price of not researching, so there is a tradeoff. And you will always want to research. Why stack armies for defense when you could be researching the Doomsday Device?

Now that I think about it, this tradeof argument also works for Zeppeling without negative autodeploy. If someone wants to stack armies in their Zeppelin that's ok, because they are paing the price of not using them for research.

Air Superiority: This is an interesting idea. By itself I'm not sure it would do much, again because zeppelins would primarily be used as a defensive tactic and probably wouldn't be researched until after someone takes your homeland. One possibility would be to have zeppelins attack, not bombard, other zeppelins, so you could go from your zeppelin to someone else's and bombard their homeland. This would make zeppelins an offensive weapon, although ground troops would still be needed to conquer a region. I think this could work on a number of levels, and by making the starting neutral value of the tech high enough (and maybe giving it a -1 or -2 auto), I don't think it would drastically change the gameplay, just add a different element.

I think you have had a very interesting idea here! Literally this is adding another layer to the map. By connecting zeppelins to their adjacent cardinal counterparts, there can be an actual fight for the skies. Let's say NW is adjacent to W and to NE. NE is adjacent to NW and to E, and so on.

In fact it is a pitty that we are so short of space, because the proper way to develop your idea would be to have a small part of the map representing the skies with 6-12 territories. Each part would be able to bombard a sector in the land, and zeppelins tech would provide access to the air sector above the capital.

Now that I think about it, I am even willing to sacrifice the two advanced techs to make room in the map for this revamped zeppelins tech.

[OliverFA]

More about this "sky" idea:

- This could lead to a complementary tech: Anti Air Defenses. The effect of this new tech would be to be able to bombard the sky area above the homeland.

- If sky layer is too powerful, it could be adjusted with a negative autodeploy in the sky territories (only "if") .

By the way, this discussion does not delay the XML production. I continue to work in the techs that are defined. This evening when I arrive at home will continue working on the Propaganda tech.

[OliverFA]

Whew! Lot of stuff to comment on. I won't quote Oliver's long posts, just to save space

As always, thanks for your comments and feedback

First, I think the objective is a bad idea. It seems like it dumbs down the Doomsday Device, which can bombard everything. If it can bombards everything, why make an objective? With the objective, it seems like you could fairly easily win without the Device.

What I say is that if we go with the "hold any geographic territory to stay alive" as our losing condition, the unwanted result could be a long and boring endgame, when you know you have won but still have to conquer all the land. That's why I suggested the "hold the capitals" as the wining condition. Capitals are spread each one in a different corner of the map, so the player still has to fight his way to reach them, but they are only 6 territories. So it makes the late game shorter while not being possible to be achieved during the early game.

It's ok that you can win without the Doomsday Device. They are supposed to be alternative ways to victory. Using Civilization terms, you can win a Domination Victory or a Science Victory.

Second, I like Z2 best easily, but neither AS nor NA seem like good ideas, as I don't see either of them being beneficial to the gameplay. I could go into detail, but it's late...

I am conviced now that Negative Autodeploy was a not so good idea. But Air Superiority could be interesting as an sky layer id well done. Or maybe that would be stuff for a completely new map that centered around that concept.

[OliverFA]

Congrats on a really unique map that I am going to enjoy researching for the next few days, or maybe i could make it a post-grad!



I'll comment more when I have a clue.

Thanks for your nice words

In few words, that's the concept:

- You can use your income to fund your army (works as "normal" maps) or to research new technologies (deploy to "tech tree")
- Researching a new technology provides advantages:
---> Raised minimum armies reinforcement
---> Higher income from your homeland
---> Hihger income from foreign homelands
---> Higher income from any land
---> Able to use mines (and get income from them)
---> Zeppelins (As you see, being discussed right now)
---> Doomsday Device (Also being discused now. Either automatic win or become uberpowerful, which also means winning but in a funnier way. We are more inclined now towards the second option).

- It incorporates also the "nationality" concept as each player has "national" territories
- It has two alternative ways to win
- It includes "capitals".

And I think I don't forget anything.

Either if we are discussing some parts of the design, the XML file is progressing with the first version of such design. In case you are interested you can get the file in P 37 and probably tonight i'll upload a newer version.

[carlpgoodrich]

Air Superiority: This is an interesting idea. By itself I'm not sure it would do much, again because zeppelins would primarily be used as a defensive tactic and probably wouldn't be researched until after someone takes your homeland. One possibility would be to have zeppelins attack, not bombard, other zeppelins, so you could go from your zeppelin to someone else's and bombard their homeland. This would make zeppelins an offensive weapon, although ground troops would still be needed to conquer a region. I think this could work on a number of levels, and by making the starting neutral value of the tech high enough (and maybe giving it a -1 or -2 auto), I don't think it would drastically change the gameplay, just add a different element.

I think you have had a very interesting idea here! Literally this is adding another layer to the map. By connecting zeppelins to their adjacent cardinal counterparts, there can be an actual fight for the skies. Let's say NW is adjacent to W and to NE. NE is adjacent to NW and to E, and so on.

In fact it is a pitty that we are so short of space, because the proper way to develop your idea would be to have a small part of the map representing the skies with 6-12 territories. Each part would be able to bombard a sector in the land, and zeppelins tech would provide access to the air sector above the capital.

Now that I think about it, I am even willing to sacrifice the two advanced techs to make room in the map for this revamped zeppelins tech.

I'm glad you like the idea I think we can essentially have the concept you want but without sacrificing the two advanced techs. Assuming option Z2 above, each zeppelin can bombard its corresponding homeland (and a bit more). That tech represents the airspace above the homeland (you don't need a separate territory for that). If I want to bombard your homeland, I first have to control the airspace above your homeland (i.e. I have to attack your zeppelins).

I also think having a small negative autodeploy (maybe -2) would add an interesting dynamic. Think of it as having to actively support your air defense. So before I take the tech, there is a starting neutral (10? 15? whatever) that protects my air space. If I want to go on the offensive, I have to take over the responsibilities of defending my airspace, and that will cost me 2 troops per turn.

I agree that this could be expanded and made much better if we had room, but this is a simple solution that would be easy to explain in the legend and would still provide the same basic gameplay.

[Victor Sullivan]

Okay, I'm convinced the capital objective's a good idea - I see your point. It is Reaserch and Conquer, after all. Still not fond of the auto-decay and the sky territories - it's just too much for one tech.

[OliverFA]

Propaganda Tech done, and Activated Reserves partially done. XML here

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.12.XML

Next step is to start with Open Conscription.

Then the adjacencies.

After that zeppelins. It seens things are getting more and more clear about it.

Last Doomsday Device.

Once everything is done, try the less granular approach.

Click image to enlarge.

[OliverFA]

Will comment on your posts tomorrow. Now I am going to sleep

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I don't have the time today to go hunting for quotes and such like I usually do, but here's some thoughts:

While I agree that if we go with II-1 that the winning condition of owning all six capitals is a good idea, I think I still lean towards II-2, as I still think it would be more interesting to be able to eliminate someone by taking the capitals. I could support the modified II-1 idea though, if that's what everybody agrees with.

For Zeppelins, I don't know that there's a lot of difference between Z1 and Z2, though there would be a slightly bigger one during Adjacent Attack games (for those few here who are familiar, possibly just Oliver), where it would give one extra turn of being able to nail someone before they reach your capital. I don't think that the tech cost should be significantly affected if Z2 is chosen. I think that I would prefer either one of them.

For the air superiority idea, while I think the original idea of being able to bombard other zeppelins would work, I think any idea of attacking other player's zeppelins would affect the overall feel of the gameplay. Also allowing another player to get to another's zeppelin would allow them to bombard the other capital. This may be acceptable if option II-1 is used, but would be way too powerful if option II-2 is used. Even with option II-1, it still seems pretty powerful and a little against the feel of the map.

While I'm still leaning against it, the separate air map thing may work if TSFs and Advanced Techs are removed and moved under the basic techs. One air square for each neutral and homeland region would possibly be nice if you were to combine neutral territories into groups of 7-9 instead of 3-6. The air names could be something like SGA, MAA, and MHA for the SG#, MA#, and MH# areas, for example. I don't know how well this would ulimately work, though I agree it has some potential for adding another layer to the map. If the separate air map is being considered at all, then I would suggest holding off on Open Conscription for the XML until last, since that's a hell a lot of lines of code to just throw away.

If air superiority isn't used and you wanted to help prevent someone using their lab autodeploys for zeppelins, then you could always put a -3 autodeploy on zeppelins. This would help negate constant forting. I think no negative autodeploy works just fine though.

For the doomsday device, I do like the idea of it being able to bombard everything. I have always loved Arms Race for the great fun it provides of wiping the other guy out from the missile launch. If this change is made to Doomsday, then what does everyone think about putting a large autodeploy onto it to help increase its power. Something like +20 to +40 autodeploy. Otherwise I would suggest dropping the neutral on it from 200 to something smaller, perhaps 150. If the autodeploy is used, then perhaps a higher neutral value as well, like 250. I don't know if either is a good idea or not, but I just thought about it so I'm throwing it out there just incase it is.

While I'm thinking about it, are the basic versions of techs required for the advanced versions to work? If not, then I think that they should be.

I think I got all of the most recent discussion points. If I missed anything, let me know and I'll comment.

[TaCktiX]

Wow, lots of comments. My own personal thoughts on this gameplay discussion:

- Capitals are a losing condition.
- Zeppelins do Z2, and cannot bombard the capital (since it's technically not homeland)
- I am NOT in favor of having Zeppelins attacking other Zeppelins, or the Air idea. Scrapping 75% of the advanced techs for the sake of an "intriguing" addition at best would cheapen the research aspect significantly just for the sake of making Zeppelins ultra-relevant. Major case of negative overkill.
- Negative autodeploy should not be necessary. Attacking researches is purely one-way, once you advance or fortify there, they STAY there. So you're limiting your options for other researches by biasing Zeppelins so heavily. No need to penalize a strategy that has its own built-in cons.
- Doomsday Device I can see as something ridiculous like a +200 autodeploy and bombards everything if we're going to change it from being an objective in the rawest sense. We want it so that if you hold that tech, you DO win in the next round, period. It should be a looming concern for every player for where their opponents are with researching Doomsday.

And as an aside point: Propaganda as it stands I believe is very weak, as there is only one territory difference between holding your own homeland and holding a foreign one (the owning capital). I read the suggestion of turning it into a territory bonus for holding neutral countries. Does that still hold some traction?

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Wow, lots of comments. My own personal thoughts on this gameplay discussion:

- Capitals are a losing condition.
- Zeppelins do Z2, and cannot bombard the capital (since it's technically not homeland)
- I am NOT in favor of having Zeppelins attacking other Zeppelins, or the Air idea. Scrapping 75% of the advanced techs for the sake of an "intriguing" addition at best would cheapen the research aspect significantly just for the sake of making Zeppelins ultra-relevant. Major case of negative overkill.
- Negative autodeploy should not be necessary. Attacking researches is purely one-way, once you advance or fortify there, they STAY there. So you're limiting your options for other researches by biasing Zeppelins so heavily. No need to penalize a strategy that has its own built-in cons.
- Doomsday Device I can see as something ridiculous like a +200 autodeploy and bombards everything if we're going to change it from being an objective in the rawest sense. We want it so that if you hold that tech, you DO win in the next round, period. It should be a looming concern for every player for where their opponents are with researching Doomsday.

And as an aside point: Propaganda as it stands I believe is very weak, as there is only one territory difference between holding your own homeland and holding a foreign one (the owning capital). I read the suggestion of turning it into a territory bonus for holding neutral countries. Does that still hold some traction?

I still very much like the idea of capitals being a losing condition.

I think as far as the zeppelins go, you have very good points. I think that just by having them bombard the homeland and adjacent territories that it provides enough of a benefit in card games to be of use.

I like the idea of a large autodeploy on Doomsday Device. +200 would certainly be a great way of making sure that the game ends the following turn unless someone kills the player's capital (presuming capitals as losing condition happens). I could support a huge number autodeployable on Doomsday Device, though I think personally I'd like it better if it were less than +200 but still rather large. I think +100 would be nice, as it offers a break-even payback of 2 rounds (much better than any other tech) and still would allow a player to cause insane amounts of damage each and every round. It would also give players a precious couple rounds to possibly stop the player with Doomsday.

For Propaganda, I'm biased since I'm the one that came up with the idea. I still think it would be a good idea to extend it to neutral territories as well, presuming you combined the number of 3 territory countries into 6 territory countries, or something similar. If this is implemented, I would strongly suggest an increase in the neutral value of Propaganda, since it would be much easier for it to be of use. I've always liked this idea because it gives yet another different way of getting bonuses from the geographical map. It allows for a player to decide whether they want to grow out in a mass using Propaganda or in a straight B-line for the mines, or just take as many cheap territories as possible for secret conscription. Speaking of which, if Propaganda gets implemented like this, I would suggest making sure there's a large number of 6 territory neutral countries in the top left area, so that the player up there (blue, I think?) can't get overly carried away with secret conscription and propaganda.

[carlpgoodrich]

If we go back to the capitals being a losing condition, than that changes everything we have been talking about the zeppelins. I am a bit indifferent about whether they are losing conditions or not, I'll leave that to you guys to discuss.

Regarding the zeppelins:
Zeppelins should not exist in a way that only leads to them being used as a cheap way to get a card. I think we can all agree on this, yes? In the case where the capitals are losing conditions and Z2 is used without zeppelins attacking other zeppelins, then zeppelins would only be used to get cards because the defensive strategy would no longer apply.

Having zeppelins attack other zeppelins would not drastically change the gameplay, it would only add an additional element that would only occasionally be used. Lets say zeppelins can bombard their own homeland but not their capital and can attack other zeppelins. Then yes, zeppelins can be used as part of an offensive strategy, but they could not be used to eliminate a player or radically alter their bonus (only bonuses affected would be national pride, one mine, and a few territories). There would also be a road block of around 30 neutrals (assuming they start with 15 each). Additionally, you would be opening yourself up to attacks.

My next point is related to the doomsday device. First, there is little difference between having +100 or +200 autodeploy and having it be a victory condition. If the point is to make it "hold this and you will will," then just make it a victory condition. That being said, I am very much opposed to the concept of a victory condition that can only be attacked by one player, even if every player has one. The idea being that if I hold the doomsday device then other people should be able to take it from me. One solution is to make the doomsday device the same for all the players, so everyone can attack it.

Another solutions (which is what I thought was the most recent consensus) was to have it bombard the entire map but only have a small autodeploy (maybe +10). This would make it a very powerful research but would not guarantee victory.

If it were completely up to me, I would do both: have one territory called "air superiority" with around 50-100 neutrals that everyone can attack and that can bombard the entire map. It could also have an auto of around +10. The zeppelins would then represent the local air space.

Sorry that was a lot. Hope it makes sense.

[TaCktiX]

If we make capitals a losing condition, and debuff the autodeploy to something like +50 or +75, it's possible for other players to eliminate the one gaining the technology, simulating the destruction of the device that would certainly defeat them all. It allows for a last-ditch effort, but keeps it as an extremely powerful "Game-ender."

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Regarding the zeppelins:
Zeppelins should not exist in a way that only leads to them being used as a cheap way to get a card. I think we can all agree on this, yes? In the case where the capitals are losing conditions and Z2 is used without zeppelins attacking other zeppelins, then zeppelins would only be used to get cards because the defensive strategy would no longer apply.

I wouldn't be opposed to them only being used as a cheap method to gain a card. I do agree; however, that if we can find another good way of using them that it would make them that much more worthwhile.

Having zeppelins attack other zeppelins would not drastically change the gameplay, it would only add an additional element that would only occasionally be used. Lets say zeppelins can bombard their own homeland but not their capital and can attack other zeppelins. Then yes, zeppelins can be used as part of an offensive strategy, but they could not be used to eliminate a player or radically alter their bonus (only bonuses affected would be national pride, one mine, and a few territories). There would also be a road block of around 30 neutrals (assuming they start with 15 each). Additionally, you would be opening yourself up to attacks.

The biggest problem that I have with this idea is that you are essentially researching zeppelins for another player when you attack their neutral 15. That, to me, makes no sense at all. I understand wanting to make them something more than a card generator, but I don't think it's worth breaking the research concept that severely. I would rather see them see Z3 (bombard the 1/6th of board closest to homeland) or go back to being able to directly bombard all other homelands (not capitals) as well. If either of these were to happen, I would think that a higher neutral should be put on them than 15. Perhaps 20-25 would do well enough.

I think waiting for a few more people to pitch in their feelings about zeppelins being a card generator tech only would be the best way to go before figuring out different ways to make them more useful. I'm personally on the fence, though leaning slightly towards having them be more useful.

My next point is related to the doomsday device. First, there is little difference between having +100 or +200 autodeploy and having it be a victory condition. If the point is to make it "hold this and you will will," then just make it a victory condition. That being said, I am very much opposed to the concept of a victory condition that can only be attacked by one player, even if every player has one. The idea being that if I hold the doomsday device then other people should be able to take it from me. One solution is to make the doomsday device the same for all the players, so everyone can attack it.

Another solutions (which is what I thought was the most recent consensus) was to have it bombard the entire map but only have a small autodeploy (maybe +10). This would make it a very powerful research but would not guarantee victory.

I do think that having a victory condition that only one person can attack would be not as good as the other option we had discussed. I do think that the Doomsday Device should be a potential game-ender though. I think that if the autodeploy was fixed to be the right value, so that it can end the game quickly enough but not automatically within one turn, would be the best way to go. I think the magic number lies somewhere between 50 and 100. One thing to keep in mind with this is that if capitals are losing conditions, a player who puts effort into researching Doomsday will be significantly behind others in other areas and hence would be subseptable to being eliminated by having their capital taken. The Doomsday Device could cause a lot of damage with even +100 auto deploy, but even that high a number of troops could fall prey to having a small number on the capital that late in the game.

If it were completely up to me, I would do both: have one territory called "air superiority" with around 50-100 neutrals that everyone can attack and that can bombard the entire map. It could also have an auto of around +10. The zeppelins would then represent the local air space.

Sorry that was a lot. Hope it makes sense.

I don't know that I like that idea. The closest I could see possibly supporting is if we could find a single spot called air superiority with a medium sized neutral on it that can bombard all homelands, without attacking other zeppelins. Finding a spot for that may be an issue though.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

If we make capitals a losing condition, and debuff the autodeploy to something like +50 or +75, it's possible for other players to eliminate the one gaining the technology, simulating the destruction of the device that would certainly defeat them all. It allows for a last-ditch effort, but keeps it as an extremely powerful "Game-ender."

I think that this is the best way of going with Doomsday Device. The neutral value can always be played with easily enough during the beta phase to balance it out. I think that it would be reasonable to expect that by the time someone researches Doomsday that it'll be round 15-20 at least. That late in the game there's likely going to be large enough stacks around the board that players could make a good go at taking out the one with the Doomsday Device. A good goal, in my opinion, is to try to make it so that the Doomsday Device will end the game within 2, perhaps 3, turns during an average game. I personally think that around +75 would be a good number to start off with, but it'll be hard to know for sure until the map is in play.

[carlpgoodrich]

If we make capitals a losing condition, and debuff the autodeploy to something like +50 or +75, it's possible for other players to eliminate the one gaining the technology, simulating the destruction of the device that would certainly defeat them all. It allows for a last-ditch effort, but keeps it as an extremely powerful "Game-ender."

I think that this is the best way of going with Doomsday Device. The neutral value can always be played with easily enough during the beta phase to balance it out. I think that it would be reasonable to expect that by the time someone researches Doomsday that it'll be round 15-20 at least. That late in the game there's likely going to be large enough stacks around the board that players could make a good go at taking out the one with the Doomsday Device. A good goal, in my opinion, is to try to make it so that the Doomsday Device will end the game within 2, perhaps 3, turns during an average game. I personally think that around +75 would be a good number to start off with, but it'll be hard to know for sure until the map is in play.

I disagree that the person who researches the doomsday device will be significantly behind others in research because it will probably be the last tech to be researched. Also, there is no way for others to know that you have researched it and therefore no way to know to attack you all out. What I don't want is for the doomsday to be a surprise to the other players. Is there a reason you don't like having it be tech that everyone can attack, so you would have to research it AND defend it? I could get behind the big autodeploy as long as you had to defend it from other players.

But you are right, we should let other people add their two cents.

[natty dread]

I am of two minds about the zeppelins attacking each other thing.

Pros: it would give a big advantage to whoever researches the zeppelins first, thus it would create a sort of "arms race" to research the zeppelins. Which could be fun. Also it could be used in team games: one guy researches zeppelins, then uses his zeppelins to help bring down the neutrals on his teammates zeppelins.

Cons: it sort of ruins the research tree ideology. It could also make them too powerful. The advantage of the first one to get the zeppelin could be too great, if he manages to get a big enough stack on his zeppelin he can pretty much prevent others from researching zeppelins...


Another way to think about it would be to allow the zeppelin to assault all homeland territories, and bombard other zeppelins. Then it would provide a sort of defense force which can retake lost homeland, also possibly a way to regain the capital and stay in the game. But it would also provide a means to attack the other player's defense, to keep the other player from retaking his homeland. This way you would have to coordinate your assault between land and air. But this sort of thing could be hard to balance.

[TaCktiX]

I disagree that the person who researches the doomsday device will be significantly behind others in research because it will probably be the last tech to be researched. Also, there is no way for others to know that you have researched it and therefore no way to know to attack you all out. What I don't want is for the doomsday to be a surprise to the other players. Is there a reason you don't like having it be tech that everyone can attack, so you would have to research it AND defend it? I could get behind the big autodeploy as long as you had to defend it from other players.

But you are right, we should let other people add their two cents.

My two cents on this is I'd like it done that way because every other objective map that used an "attack and defend" paradigm for either objective or super-powerful end results rendered that option extremely unpopular. If it's each individual person's chance to get the research on their own, it removes the stigma of "if I work on it and fail, someone else is better off." Beyond that, it'd make no sense to have a research everyone can attack. It's like a bunch of international scientists got together to help one nation obliterate everyone else's nations, including the unlucky scientists on the losing nations.

EDIT: Sidenote, if it's a no fog game, everyone can see everyone else's status on research. Fog games are where it gets interesting.

[OliverFA]

One more update. I discovered Secret Conscription code was not correct. I have fixed it. Now I have the territories in independent continents which are used by Open Conscription and Secret Conscription.

The good thing is that the progress boosted. The XML file is almost finished.

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.13.XML

Click image to enlarge.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I disagree that the person who researches the doomsday device will be significantly behind others in research because it will probably be the last tech to be researched. Also, there is no way for others to know that you have researched it and therefore no way to know to attack you all out. What I don't want is for the doomsday to be a surprise to the other players. Is there a reason you don't like having it be tech that everyone can attack, so you would have to research it AND defend it? I could get behind the big autodeploy as long as you had to defend it from other players.

But you are right, we should let other people add their two cents.

As I belive TaCktiX pointed out, Doomsday would not be a surprise during no fog games. For fog games, this is why I suggested we come up with an autodeploy that would give a win within 2-3 rounds in the average game. This would give everybody 1-2 turns to make a last stand, since everybody would know Doomsday had been researched by the logs.

One major reason I'm against it being the same spot is for the same reason I'm against the zeppelins being able to assault each other... it would mess with the idea of a research tree too much. I also don't like that a player would be forced to defend it after spending 160-170 troops or so taking it. I think it would be too easy for somebody to steal it away and win the game.

I think as long as we come up with a number that would give at least 2 rounds, that it would be good. This way there's still a chance for killing the person with Doomsday.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I am of two minds about the zeppelins attacking each other thing.

Pros: it would give a big advantage to whoever researches the zeppelins first, thus it would create a sort of "arms race" to research the zeppelins. Which could be fun. Also it could be used in team games: one guy researches zeppelins, then uses his zeppelins to help bring down the neutrals on his teammates zeppelins.

Cons: it sort of ruins the research tree ideology. It could also make them too powerful. The advantage of the first one to get the zeppelin could be too great, if he manages to get a big enough stack on his zeppelin he can pretty much prevent others from researching zeppelins...


Another way to think about it would be to allow the zeppelin to assault all homeland territories, and bombard other zeppelins. Then it would provide a sort of defense force which can retake lost homeland, also possibly a way to regain the capital and stay in the game. But it would also provide a means to attack the other player's defense, to keep the other player from retaking his homeland. This way you would have to coordinate your assault between land and air. But this sort of thing could be hard to balance.

At first I liked the idea you came up with, but then I realized that it would allow a direct transfer of units from the research tree to the conquer area. I think that's one of the biggest things that we've been trying to avoid with the map.

[carlpgoodrich]

I disagree that the person who researches the doomsday device will be significantly behind others in research because it will probably be the last tech to be researched. Also, there is no way for others to know that you have researched it and therefore no way to know to attack you all out. What I don't want is for the doomsday to be a surprise to the other players. Is there a reason you don't like having it be tech that everyone can attack, so you would have to research it AND defend it? I could get behind the big autodeploy as long as you had to defend it from other players.

But you are right, we should let other people add their two cents.

My two cents on this is I'd like it done that way because every other objective map that used an "attack and defend" paradigm for either objective or super-powerful end results rendered that option extremely unpopular. If it's each individual person's chance to get the research on their own, it removes the stigma of "if I work on it and fail, someone else is better off." Beyond that, it'd make no sense to have a research everyone can attack. It's like a bunch of international scientists got together to help one nation obliterate everyone else's nations, including the unlucky scientists on the losing nations.

EDIT: Sidenote, if it's a no fog game, everyone can see everyone else's status on research. Fog games are where it gets interesting.

Ok, you guys are starting to convince me, but I'm not there yet . If the neutral count is 200, and the TSF's get a +10 auto (plus +3 from the Labs), then even if I'm a really weak player, I just need to get my TSF and then wait 15-20 rounds. Then, I just need to stack on my homeland so I dont get eliminated and I win. I think this map will make for some epic battles so 20 rounds is not that long. I think for someone to win this way they should have to devote considerable resources to the tech (i.e. they should have to deploy enough troops to sacrifice their strength on the main map). What do you think about lowering the TSF auto to say +3, and raise the neutral count to maybe 300?

I guess my main worry is that this will end games that are still getting started. I think ideally only a small fraction of games should end this way (something to keep in the back of your mind, but not something that people would base their entire strategy around).