[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[Victor Sullivan]

Right now we have three possibilities. Each of them are interesting in their own way:

1- Requiring at least one capital to stay in the game

2- Requiring exactly your capital (possible to code thanks to tech tree territories)

3- Requiring a capital AND your lab to stay in game

How about simply:

Require any 1 territory in the geographical (conquest) area to stay in the game. Ie. You can lose your capital and stay in, so you still have a chance if you have some troops, but if all you have is research, then you're toast.

I think this would be the most realistic solution: the research part is supposed to represent "abstract assets", while the conquest side is supposed to represent actual troops & conquered lands. So having only research would mean that all your actual troops are killed, therefore you lose.

Of course to achieve this, you'd need to add all the conquest territories in the losing condition, with a "required: 1" tag. And this of course would again increase the bulkiness of the XML.

I can see your thinking behind this, natty, but I don't think it makes as much sense as you realize. Your research buildings have to be somewhere on the battleground. It doesn't move with you, so to say that you only need one territory in the conquest portion doesn't really make sense. I say you should do option 2, as it makes the most sense, since your research buildings would likely be within your capital. Let me know if don't fully understand what I'm trying to say.

-Sully

[ender516]

You seem to be on the same page as I, Victor, although I am not sure research usually goes on in capitals. Rather, I think it ends up out in the boonies where it can be kept secret. Still, it is often directed from the capital, so this might amount to the same thing. Maybe we should require one capital and one non-capital region to stay in the game, although this might expand and complicate the XML to very little benefit.

[Victor Sullivan]

You seem to be on the same page as I, Victor, although I am not sure research usually goes on in capitals. Rather, I think it ends up out in the boonies where it can be kept secret.

I actually thought of that, but the capital is the only designated spot on the map, if you know what I mean.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

How about simply:

Require any 1 territory in the geographical (conquest) area to stay in the game. Ie. You can lose your capital and stay in, so you still have a chance if you have some troops, but if all you have is research, then you're toast.

I think this would be the most realistic solution: the research part is supposed to represent "abstract assets", while the conquest side is supposed to represent actual troops & conquered lands. So having only research would mean that all your actual troops are killed, therefore you lose.

Of course to achieve this, you'd need to add all the conquest territories in the losing condition, with a "required: 1" tag. And this of course would again increase the bulkiness of the XML.

I think this could be another possibility, as long as the idea to require the matching capital for techs to work was implemented. With that implemented, it strongly encourages players to attach each other's capitals and make them a very important part of the game, which they should be. I think it depends on how much focus is wanted on the capitals. I think that this could make sense, but I also think that death upon not having a home base makes sense as well, since your troops could be seen as losing all of their leadership, hence they become neutrals.

I am not completely up to speed on this map yet, but I hope you have some game play that reflects the reality that research has to take place somewhere in a geographical context. The Allies attacked the German-held heavy water facility during WWII, and that was important. Imagine what might have happened if the Luftwaffe had flattened Bletchley Park? The Conquest side of things has to be able to damage the Research, even if it can't eliminate it.

I put forth the idea that techs should require the matching colour capital in order to get their benefits. Oliver and others seemed to like the idea and I believe that this would solve your concern. From a realism point of view I think it makes sense and I believe it adds nice gameplay to the map as well, since capitals will become very important.

I can see your thinking behind this, natty, but I don't think it makes as much sense as you realize. Your research buildings have to be somewhere on the battleground. It doesn't move with you, so to say that you only need one territory in the conquest portion doesn't really make sense. I say you should do option 2, as it makes the most sense, since your research buildings would likely be within your capital. Let me know if don't fully understand what I'm trying to say.

-Sully

Sully, I think you may have not followed the train of the conversation quite right. I believe was Natty was suggesting was to require one spot on the map to stay alive, not to get the research bonus. This is at least what I presume he was talking about, since that's the part of the conversation that he quoted Oliver on.

I certainly agree that it makes sense to require the research to have the matching capital, but as far as whether to require one capital or one spot on the board to survive, I think it makes sense either way. One could argue that if you have troops on the board, that they should be able to go back and take the capital over and resume with life as it was. As I mentioned above, I also see how it makes sense that they would become neutrals after losing their command base as well.

[Victor Sullivan]

I can see your thinking behind this, natty, but I don't think it makes as much sense as you realize. Your research buildings have to be somewhere on the battleground. It doesn't move with you, so to say that you only need one territory in the conquest portion doesn't really make sense. I say you should do option 2, as it makes the most sense, since your research buildings would likely be within your capital. Let me know if don't fully understand what I'm trying to say.

-Sully

Sully, I think you may have not followed the train of the conversation quite right. I believe was Natty was suggesting was to require one spot on the map to stay alive, not to get the research bonus. This is at least what I presume he was talking about, since that's the part of the conversation that he quoted Oliver on.

I certainly agree that it makes sense to require the research to have the matching capital, but as far as whether to require one capital or one spot on the board to survive, I think it makes sense either way. One could argue that if you have troops on the board, that they should be able to go back and take the capital over and resume with life as it was. As I mentioned above, I also see how it makes sense that they would become neutrals after losing their command base as well.

I realize that. I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. Okay, allow me to rephrase: Look at natty's idea from a realistic perspective: Your research buildings have to reside somewhere, and for our purposes we'll say in the capital. How could you still have access to your research buildings if your capital has been conquered by another person? They aren't mobile, you can't take them with you around the map, which is where natty's idea falls apart.

-Sully

[Shino Tenshi]

I can see your thinking behind this, natty, but I don't think it makes as much sense as you realize. Your research buildings have to be somewhere on the battleground. It doesn't move with you, so to say that you only need one territory in the conquest portion doesn't really make sense. I say you should do option 2, as it makes the most sense, since your research buildings would likely be within your capital. Let me know if don't fully understand what I'm trying to say.

-Sully

Sully, I think you may have not followed the train of the conversation quite right. I believe was Natty was suggesting was to require one spot on the map to stay alive, not to get the research bonus. This is at least what I presume he was talking about, since that's the part of the conversation that he quoted Oliver on.

I certainly agree that it makes sense to require the research to have the matching capital, but as far as whether to require one capital or one spot on the board to survive, I think it makes sense either way. One could argue that if you have troops on the board, that they should be able to go back and take the capital over and resume with life as it was. As I mentioned above, I also see how it makes sense that they would become neutrals after losing their command base as well.

I realize that. I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. Okay, allow me to rephrase: Look at natty's idea from a realistic perspective: Your research buildings have to reside somewhere, and for our purposes we'll say in the capital. How could you still have access to your research buildings if your capital has been conquered by another person? They aren't mobile, you can't take them with you around the map, which is where natty's idea falls apart.

-Sully

What I don't understand then is how not having research should cause somebody to be automatically eliminated from the game.

[natty dread]

I realize that. I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. Okay, allow me to rephrase: Look at natty's idea from a realistic perspective: Your research buildings have to reside somewhere, and for our purposes we'll say in the capital. How could you still have access to your research buildings if your capital has been conquered by another person? They aren't mobile, you can't take them with you around the map, which is where natty's idea falls apart.

-Sully

No, you didn't really understand my idea. You keep thinking about the research as something tangible, like "buildings", when in reality, research is an abstract asset: it's basically knowledge. For a real life example, let's take some invention, say, zeppelins. Zeppelins are researched and invented, and then the nation where the researcher lives in, has the technology of zeppelins. The nation has researched zeppelins and now has the knowledge to manufacture and use them. Is the knowledge of zeppelins now dependent on a building? No, it's an abstract asset, it's knowledge, something that the nation will always have as long as any of it's people who know about zeppelins remain alive.

Therefore, if we think of the research as an abstract asset, having only the research territories would mean that all your tangible assets, like troops and cities, have been conquered, and thus your nation is dead, and so the knowledge dies with you.

[carlpgoodrich]

The point is that capitals are the "command center," the Pentagon if you will. Yes, it facilitates the research, but it also is runs the military. Natty, I agree your suggestion makes sense and could work, but the choice to make the capitals losing conditions will make for better gameplay IMO. This is also more in line with the game Civilization, where if you loose all your cities you are eliminated from the game, even if you still have armies.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Natty mentioning Zeppelins reminded me about them being able to bombard foreign capitals. Should we be revisiting their being able to bombard foreign capitals if any of the recently discussed changes, such as losing your capital being a losing condition and requiring the matching capital for research.

The losing condition issue I think is a much larger problem, as I could see someone dropping stacks on zeppelins and eliminating their opponents without ever getting very far away from their homeland. The matching capital to research issue I think is a smaller one, but still makes the zeppelins particularly strong.

The problem being is that if you limit them to the homeland only, then they become too weak. I wonder if making them able to bombard mines would help make them stronger without completely overdoing it?

[Victor Sullivan]

Natty mentioning Zeppelins reminded me about them being able to bombard foreign capitals. Should we be revisiting their being able to bombard foreign capitals if any of the recently discussed changes, such as losing your capital being a losing condition and requiring the matching capital for research.

The losing condition issue I think is a much larger problem, as I could see someone dropping stacks on zeppelins and eliminating their opponents without ever getting very far away from their homeland. The matching capital to research issue I think is a smaller one, but still makes the zeppelins particularly strong.

The problem being is that if you limit them to the homeland only, then they become too weak. I wonder if making them able to bombard mines would help make them stronger without completely overdoing it?

Yeah, that seems like a good way of solving the problem. And it's a nice segway into the next level of research.

[TaCktiX]

Keep in mind that all basic research can be attacked by the lab, no requirement of order. Saying "next level of research" when referring to mines would be misleading.

As for the suggestion to change Zeppelins off bombarding capitals, definitely. Doing that with the new losing conditions in place would be a major put-off from the "point" of R&C, that of having any number of strategies you can go after, based on your position in the map (intentional asymmetry), the actions of your opponents (are they expanding wildly or staying close to home), and the procession of your own dice (whether or not you managed to get 5 territories conquered last turn or just 3). So the research needs to change again to retain relevance.

However, I don't think it should be allowed to bombard mines. As valuable resources it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but it's such a direct and simple nullification of the power of the Mining research. Also, it allows for a lot of easy spying on all sectors of the map, even if you disallow bombarding homeland-based mines.

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

[Victor Sullivan]

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

Sounds good. I vote for the symbol over the color bordering.

[carlpgoodrich]

I thought we were making a big deal about keeping the tech tree and the map separate? The zeppelins seem to violate this. That being said, I do like the idea.

I like the idea of the zeppelins bombarding mines, but agree with your concern about spying. What if the zepplins were a killer neutral (maybe 15?). That would give people the ability to spy and attack other mines, but it would be costly enough to prevent abuse.

[OliverFA]

Secret Conscription is done. The total XML size is now... 554KB!

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.07.XML

Right after this version of the XML is done, I'll create another with 6 territories granularity. So I will only apply Secret Conscription and Open Conscription bonuses for territories 6, 12, 18, and so on. This will likely reduce the size a lot.

Click image to enlarge.

[OliverFA]

Sully, I think you may have not followed the train of the conversation quite right. I believe was Natty was suggesting was to require one spot on the map to stay alive, not to get the research bonus. This is at least what I presume he was talking about, since that's the part of the conversation that he quoted Oliver on.

I certainly agree that it makes sense to require the research to have the matching capital, but as far as whether to require one capital or one spot on the board to survive, I think it makes sense either way. One could argue that if you have troops on the board, that they should be able to go back and take the capital over and resume with life as it was. As I mentioned above, I also see how it makes sense that they would become neutrals after losing their command base as well.

I realize that. I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. Okay, allow me to rephrase: Look at natty's idea from a realistic perspective: Your research buildings have to reside somewhere, and for our purposes we'll say in the capital. How could you still have access to your research buildings if your capital has been conquered by another person? They aren't mobile, you can't take them with you around the map, which is where natty's idea falls apart.

-Sully

Let's name current options:
Option II-1(I use II to differentiate them from the previous options we had)
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one geographical map territory in order to stay alive (can be no-capital).

Option II-2
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one capital to stay alive (even if it's not your own one).

Option II-3
- Your own capital in order to stay alive.

I still think that II-3 is too powerful. II-1 makes some sense, but it has a problem from the "story" point of view. This means that if you lose your capital, you will lose your tech benefits. But you will still be able to research even if you don't get the benefits. That's a bit strange.

For this reason I prefer option II-2.

However, II-3 is easy to code. So we can continue discussion because it does not affect XML progress. So even if I am coding II-2 it can be changed to II-1 easily. If we could decide a nice way to explain why you can research without having your capital, we could consider this option.

[OliverFA]

I thought we were making a big deal about keeping the tech tree and the map separate? The zeppelins seem to violate this. That being said, I do like the idea.

I like the idea of the zeppelins bombarding mines, but agree with your concern about spying. What if the zepplins were a killer neutral (maybe 15?). That would give people the ability to spy and attack other mines, but it would be costly enough to prevent abuse.

Or... WE COULD MAKE ZEPPELINGS THE DOOMSDAY DEVICE TECH!!!

Instead of automatically winning, you get able to bombard the full map through zeppelins. Including capitals.

When this map was started this did not make sense, But now, thanks to losing conditions, I think it is less abstract and way cooler.

[Victor Sullivan]

I thought we were making a big deal about keeping the tech tree and the map separate? The zeppelins seem to violate this. That being said, I do like the idea.

I like the idea of the zeppelins bombarding mines, but agree with your concern about spying. What if the zepplins were a killer neutral (maybe 15?). That would give people the ability to spy and attack other mines, but it would be costly enough to prevent abuse.

Or... WE COULD MAKE ZEPPELINS THE DOOMSDAY DEVICE TECH!!!

Instead of automatically winning, you get able to bombard the full map through zeppelins. Including capitals.

When this map was started this did not make sense, But now, thanks to losing conditions, I think it is less abstract and way cooler.

Possibly... So would that just eliminate zeppelins from the standard research column? I definitely like the idea of the doomsday device bombarding every territory on the map instead of the doomsday device being an objective, but I don't know as if they should be the zeppelins. I say keep Tacktix's idea:

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

and have the zeppelins come after mining research.

Let's name current options:
Option II-1(I use II to differentiate them from the previous options we had)
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one geographical map territory in order to stay alive (can be no-capital).

Option II-2
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one capital to stay alive (even if it's not your own one).

Option II-3
- Your own capital in order to stay alive.

I like Option II-1 best, but I'd be moderately satisfied with Option II-2.

-Sully

[OliverFA]

Zeppelings are more important than it seems. They are the way to take your homeland (and your capital) back. They are also the way to make it more difficult for you to keep other players' capitals. Remember that the bombard works always even if you have lost your whole homeland.

The difference is that they are more a defensive tech than an offensive one. And I think it's a good thing, in order to add a bit more variety.

Maybe they could be renamed to something like partisans, because that's the way in which it works. And in order to make it more interesting, add a small autodeploy of +1 or +2, which would acumulate since those troops cannot be reinforced anywhere.

[carlpgoodrich]

Zeppelings are more important than it seems. They are the way to take your homeland (and your capital) back. They are also the way to make it more difficult for you to keep other players' capitals. Remember that the bombard works always even if you have lost your whole homeland.

The difference is that they are more a defensive tech than an offensive one. And I think it's a good thing, in order to add a bit more variety.

Maybe they could be renamed to something like partisans, because that's the way in which it works. And in order to make it more interesting, add a small autodeploy of +1 or +2, which would acumulate since those troops cannot be reinforced anywhere.

The problem I see with this is that it drastically changes the game between 2-3 player games and 4+ player games, since "taking back your homeland" is only an option when you still have another homeland left (otherwise the losing condition eliminates you). I think if you are going to have a tech that attacks the board, it should have limited importance (i.e. not a game changer like attacking homelands). In order to win (or even stay alive) you should have to commit troops and energy to the map.

Again, IMHO, I think a good compromise concerning the Zeppelins is to have them bombard all mines but be a killer neutral, thus providing the "spy" concept in a limited role as well as a long range attack mechanism that won't drastically change a game or be abused.

[TaCktiX]

To have them be a viable killer neutral we would have to drop the research's neutral count significantly, as there is no ability to set different neutral values. Otherwise, you'd kill 15-something armies EACH TIME you wanted to just kill a couple armies on the map. Not a good plan.

But at the same time, dropping the neutral value puts it way different than every other research, and I think it goes against the theme of the map's researches. You burn through all those neutrals, the ability is yours, for the rest of the game. Adding a killer neutral cheapens that significantly, and only to provide an alternate path to decimating an enemy's homeland. With exception to a Doomsday victory, I would prefer to see large expansion required for success in the game instead of CC City Mogul-like instagib victories.

[carlpgoodrich]

To have them be a viable killer neutral we would have to drop the research's neutral count significantly, as there is no ability to set different neutral values. Otherwise, you'd kill 15-something armies EACH TIME you wanted to just kill a couple armies on the map. Not a good plan.

But at the same time, dropping the neutral value puts it way different than every other research, and I think it goes against the theme of the map's researches. You burn through all those neutrals, the ability is yours, for the rest of the game. Adding a killer neutral cheapens that significantly, and only to provide an alternate path to decimating an enemy's homeland. With exception to a Doomsday victory, I would prefer to see large expansion required for success in the game instead of CC City Mogul-like instagib victories.

There is a way around this: the tech can 1 way attack a small killer neutral that can attack the board. In other words, you first research how to build zeppelins, but then you have to actually build them. Every turn you want to use them, you have to build another one. This actually incorporates another key concept from Civilization that is not yet incorporated .

[TaCktiX]

As much as Civilization is an influence on R&C, we shouldn't aim to make the map as much like Civilization possible, as some things will not translate well to CC's rules. Consider that suggestion: implementing it will require me to find space for 6 more research territories on the map, and it doesn't include the text required to explain the killer neutral mechanic and the relation between Zeppelin Strikes and Zeppelins. There isn't space on the map for that at this point, nor do I think the simulation of "building zeppelins" will work well from a fun aspect. By that argument, everyone should have to deploy to one territory, then attack through a killer neutral to simulate "training men," since that would be more faithful to Civilization.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Keep in mind that all basic research can be attacked by the lab, no requirement of order. Saying "next level of research" when referring to mines would be misleading.

As for the suggestion to change Zeppelins off bombarding capitals, definitely. Doing that with the new losing conditions in place would be a major put-off from the "point" of R&C, that of having any number of strategies you can go after, based on your position in the map (intentional asymmetry), the actions of your opponents (are they expanding wildly or staying close to home), and the procession of your own dice (whether or not you managed to get 5 territories conquered last turn or just 3). So the research needs to change again to retain relevance.

However, I don't think it should be allowed to bombard mines. As valuable resources it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but it's such a direct and simple nullification of the power of the Mining research. Also, it allows for a lot of easy spying on all sectors of the map, even if you disallow bombarding homeland-based mines.

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

I agree that it would break the mining tech too much to allow Zepplins to bombard them. I think that this suggestion would work if it wasn't for the additional space that it would require on the board to mark all the territories that the zeppelins can bombard. I suppose the colour bordering may work if you can figure out a way to make it clear in the instructions.

Or... WE COULD MAKE ZEPPELINGS THE DOOMSDAY DEVICE TECH!!!

Instead of automatically winning, you get able to bombard the full map through zeppelins. Including capitals.

When this map was started this did not make sense, But now, thanks to losing conditions, I think it is less abstract and way cooler.

I also think that this is a very good idea for how to handle zeppelins, or at the very least an interesting change to the Doomsday Device.

The major question that comes to mind is whether what you were suggesting was to replace the zeppelin tech with something else. If that's what you were suggesting, then the next obvious question would be what new tech do we come up with?

Zeppelings are more important than it seems. They are the way to take your homeland (and your capital) back. They are also the way to make it more difficult for you to keep other players' capitals. Remember that the bombard works always even if you have lost your whole homeland.

The difference is that they are more a defensive tech than an offensive one. And I think it's a good thing, in order to add a bit more variety.

Maybe they could be renamed to something like partisans, because that's the way in which it works. And in order to make it more interesting, add a small autodeploy of +1 or +2, which would acumulate since those troops cannot be reinforced anywhere.

There is no way for Zeppelins to take back the capital, as they are bombard only.

I don't think that the autodeploy is a good idea. It goes away from the general feel of how the tech tree works. Though I guess zeppelins naturally do that anyway given that they can bombard the board.

One major thing that you missed is that Zeppelins, even in their original form, allow a player to bombard a neutral over and over again for cards during card games. This, as anyone who plays Feudal or any number of other conquer based maps with bombard spots, is a fairly big thing as it allows a player to stay in the same general vacinity and build troops. Whether you wish to allow this type of gameplay could be a factor in the decision of keeping zeppelins or converting them to something like the Doomsday Device tech.

To have them be a viable killer neutral we would have to drop the research's neutral count significantly, as there is no ability to set different neutral values. Otherwise, you'd kill 15-something armies EACH TIME you wanted to just kill a couple armies on the map. Not a good plan.

But at the same time, dropping the neutral value puts it way different than every other research, and I think it goes against the theme of the map's researches. You burn through all those neutrals, the ability is yours, for the rest of the game. Adding a killer neutral cheapens that significantly, and only to provide an alternate path to decimating an enemy's homeland. With exception to a Doomsday victory, I would prefer to see large expansion required for success in the game instead of CC City Mogul-like instagib victories.

I agree that the killer neutral idea isn't a good one. It goes too much against the general idea of researching and having the benefit. It's also too dififcult to cram in another 6 spots to simulate building the zeppelins as well.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Let's name current options:
Option II-1(I use II to differentiate them from the previous options we had)
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one geographical map territory in order to stay alive (can be no-capital).

Option II-2
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one capital to stay alive (even if it's not your own one).

Option II-3
- Your own capital in order to stay alive.

I still think that II-3 is too powerful. II-1 makes some sense, but it has a problem from the "story" point of view. This means that if you lose your capital, you will lose your tech benefits. But you will still be able to research even if you don't get the benefits. That's a bit strange.

For this reason I prefer option II-2.

However, II-3 is easy to code. So we can continue discussion because it does not affect XML progress. So even if I am coding II-2 it can be changed to II-1 easily. If we could decide a nice way to explain why you can research without having your capital, we could consider this option.

I think given those options that I also prefer Option II-2. While I'm not sure that I would place a lot of importance on the 'story' aspect, I think that from a gameplay perspective Option II-2 is better than Option II-1. I also think that Option II-3 is too powerful and shouldn't be used.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

and have the zeppelins come after mining research.

It should be noted again, as TaCKtiX has pointed out a page or so ago, that the researchs can be done in any order, not necessarily in the order that they are listed in.