Exploiting A Crisis

[Phatscotty]

It does not matter which crisis, be it scammers of 9-11 victims and their families, or what happened here in MN with the bridge collapse and the contractors.

Is it evil to exploit a crisis when people are suffering? all hands should be on deck. People and leaders should not be focusing in other areas not related to the crisis.

[safariguy5]

If we define crisis as an actual disaster (none of this ridiculous "gold was just gushing out of that crack in the dam" nonsense) then I believe is is wrong to exploit a crisis. I understand people will do it, but to me, it's wrong to profit from others' misfortunes.

"When there's blood in the streets, buy property."

-Inside Man

[Falkomagno]

I would not say "Evil". Immoral can be a more accurate.

[PLAYER57832]

I think you have to define "exploit". If you mean scams, absolutely. If you mean that now some people will get work doing repairs and clean-up, then no.

[InkL0sed]

If you make money at the same time as helping people, I'd say there's nothing wrong with it. If you make money at the expense of people, it's probably immoral.

[Phatscotty]

Gulf oil spill: Boat captain, despondent over spill, commits suicide

June 23, 2010 | 11:51 am
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greensp ... icide.html

William Allen Kruse, 55, a charter boat captain recently hired by BP as a vessel of opportunity out of Gulf Shores, Ala., died Wednesday morning before 7:30 a.m. of a gunshot to the head, likely self-inflicted, authorities said.

"He had been quite despondent about the oil crisis," said Stan Vinson, coroner for Baldwin County, which includes Gulf Shores.

Kruse, who lived with his family in nearby Foley, Ala., reported to work Wednesday morning as usual at the Gulf Shores Marina on Fort Morgan Road in Gulf Shores, Vinson said. He met up with his two deckhands at his boat, The Rookie. One of the deckhands later told Vinson that Kruse seemed his usual self, sending them to fetch ice while he pulled the boat around to the gas pumps.

As the deckhands walked off to get ice, they heard what sounded like a firecracker, Vinson said. They turned around but didn't see anything out of the ordinary. So they proceeded to gather the ice and wait for Kruse at the pumps. "He never showed," Vinson said.

After waiting a while, the deckhands returned to the boat, which was moored where they had left it, Vinson said. They went aboard and found Kruse at the captain's bridge above the wheelhouse, Vinson said. He had been shot in the head. A Glock handgun was later recovered from the scene, and investigators do not suspect foul play, Vinson said.

Vinson said Kruse was in good health, did not suffer from any mental illness and was not taking psychotropic medications.

But he said it's not surprising the oil spill had weighed heavily on his mind, as it has on many local fishermen no longer able to support themselves with deep-sea sport fishing trips for marlin and the like, Vinson said.

answer


Cap and Trade

I wonder if William Kruse might still be alive if our gov't had accepted the help of 13 foreign countries to clean up the oil spill on day #3...
It's quite possible. The spill would not have gotten so out of hand. Some regions may have been spared, but surely would be less contaminated.

[john9blue]

Wishy-washy consequentialist that I am, I have a problem classifying a broad category of actions as "always evil". Usually it is, though.

[Phatscotty]

Wishy-washy consequentialist that I am, I have a problem classifying a broad category of actions as "always evil". Usually it is, though.

It's not "what kind of action".

The action is "exploiting"...in a time of danger and need in a crisis. exploiting.....for personal gains or other.

A crisis is almost always a bad thing, and people should not be spending time focusing on how to use the crisis to further some other agenda. That is not what we pay taxes for, or what we voted for, or the kind of leadership we need in a time of crisis.

[rockfist]

If a crisis is exploited to find a solution (Yucca Mountain) to what everyone recognizes as a problem (nuclear waste) and it makes us safer, then it is good. If its just a rim (rahm) job crisis exploited to perpetuate power then it is immoral and deserving of capital punishment.

[john9blue]

Scotty, is this one of those times where you start off with a broad judgment and then apply it to a specific event? If you're talking specifically about Obama and the oil spill, why not just start there and make your case, instead of getting us to somewhat agree on hypotheticals?

[Phatscotty]

Scotty, is this one of those times where you start off with a broad judgment and then apply it to a specific event? If you're talking specifically about Obama and the oil spill, why not just start there and make your case, instead of getting us to somewhat agree on hypotheticals?

It's the third, and most current, example. It asked broadly because I think it wrong in any crisis. Plus, narrowing it down to a specific instance such as the oil spill is ripe for partisan bullshit.

It is any crisis. The Bush administration exploited the shit out of 9-11, played on peoples fears, and stripped many liberties, never to return. That was evil.

I would like to hear some of these "it depends" scenarios...

[Baron Von PWN]

Scotty, is this one of those times where you start off with a broad judgment and then apply it to a specific event? If you're talking specifically about Obama and the oil spill, why not just start there and make your case, instead of getting us to somewhat agree on hypotheticals?

Its a scotty thread of course it is. The whole point was so he could accuse Obama of exploiting the crisis to pass Cap and trade(which I don't think he has done) also of driving a man to suicide.

Crisises will change the political environment. They create a strong desire to "fix" what caused the crisis all kind of people will come up with different ideas as to what will be a viable solution. Whichever solution gets chosen there will of course be someone who was unhappy about it who will be accusing whoever is in charge of driving people to suicide.

[Phatscotty]

oh yeah?

The oil spill is being used. I have a problem with that. I would also appreciate older stories of what happened during other crisiseseses.

Is it ok to talk about the current crises being exploited?

[Nobunaga]

Scotty, is this one of those times where you start off with a broad judgment and then apply it to a specific event? If you're talking specifically about Obama and the oil spill, why not just start there and make your case, instead of getting us to somewhat agree on hypotheticals?

Its a scotty thread of course it is. The whole point was so he could accuse Obama of exploiting the crisis to pass Cap and trade(which I don't think he has done) ...

... For your consideration.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/06/15 ... -dems-say/

http://www.ldjackson.net/news-politics/ ... and-trade/

[Baron Von PWN]

oh yeah?

The oil spill is being used. I have a problem with that. I would also appreciate older stories of what happened during other crisiseseses.

Is it ok to talk about the current crises being exploited?

Crisis' bring out problems in the system that may not have been apparent before. Usually after major crisis' some sort of change is undertaken to attempt to either prevent future ones or mitigate the results. Which in my opinion would be a good thing, different ideologies of course will have different solutions.

These reforms may not have been possible before as they could have been unpopular due to the non apparent need (which the crisis would bring up), I don't think this is surprising or wrong in any way.

If you want to call that "exploitation" and "evil" then I'm not exactly sure what you expect government's to do in the face of crisis. Change nothing?

Of course you can disagree with the course of action taken by the government. In which case it might make sense to argue why it doesn't actually fix anything or even makes the situation worse rather than accusing them of "evil" and "exploitation" simply for attempting some sort of reform as a result of the crisis.

[Nobunaga]

oh yeah?

The oil spill is being used. I have a problem with that. I would also appreciate older stories of what happened during other crisiseseses.

Is it ok to talk about the current crises being exploited?

Crisis' bring out problems in the system that may not have been apparent before. Usually after major crisis' some sort of change is undertaken to attempt to either prevent future ones or mitigate the results. Which in my opinion would be a good thing, different ideologies of course will have different solutions.

These reforms may not have been possible before as they could have been unpopular due to the non apparent need (which the crisis would bring up), I don't think this is surprising or wrong in any way.

... I agree with the reasoning here, but in my mind, an oil spill should not serve as a vehicle for, nor does it demonstrate a "need", to levy a tax on carbon.

...

[Baron Von PWN]

oh yeah?

The oil spill is being used. I have a problem with that. I would also appreciate older stories of what happened during other crisiseseses.

Is it ok to talk about the current crises being exploited?

Crisis' bring out problems in the system that may not have been apparent before. Usually after major crisis' some sort of change is undertaken to attempt to either prevent future ones or mitigate the results. Which in my opinion would be a good thing, different ideologies of course will have different solutions.

These reforms may not have been possible before as they could have been unpopular due to the non apparent need (which the crisis would bring up), I don't think this is surprising or wrong in any way.

... I agree with the reasoning here, but in my mind, an oil spill should not serve as a vehicle for, nor does it demonstrate a "need", to levy a tax on carbon.

...

The argument would likely go that by putting an increased cost on carbon it would reduce the demand for carbon producing products and increase demand in "green" products as they would not be subject to such a levy. Decreasing demand for carbon emitting products would reduce demand for oil reducing risky exploitation of resources. it would therefore be an attempt at reducing the amount of risky resource exploitation.

Though a perhaps more effective measure would be the mandatory drilling or relief wells, this would be expensive though and I wager Oil companies would lobby heavily against this in favor of the much cheaper Cap and trade system.

[Phatscotty]

Yeah, that would be true, except for the fact that the Obama administration ok'd a 2 billion dollar loan/investment in Petrobras, which drills 3 times deeper than the deep horizon. Clearly, your example does not fit into the reality. But it would have been a good example IF that were the case.

BTW, what is your explanation for the Obama administration turning down all the help that was offered on day #3?

[Baron Von PWN]

Yeah, that would be true, except for the fact that the Obama administration ok'd a 2 billion dollar loan/investment in Petrobras, which drills 3 times deeper than the deep horizon. Clearly, your example does not fit into the reality. But it would have been a good example IF that were the case.

BTW, what is your explanation for the Obama administration turning down all the help that was offered on day #3?

Maybe they thought they wouldn't need it, it was still early on in the event.

As to the loan. That doesn't really reverse the argument of cap and trade, as the general effect would still occur. Maybe they like how Petrobras goes about their drilling or maybe they just want to cosy up to the brasilians, or maybe they want to encourage someone outside of the US to engage in Risky drilling but still get the results through export.

[Woodruff]

Yeah, that would be true, except for the fact that the Obama administration ok'd a 2 billion dollar loan/investment in Petrobras, which drills 3 times deeper than the deep horizon. Clearly, your example does not fit into the reality. But it would have been a good example IF that were the case.

BTW, what is your explanation for the Obama administration turning down all the help that was offered on day #3?

Maybe they thought they wouldn't need it, it was still early on in the event.

Which at it's best would be highly arrogant.

[King Doctor]

Which at it's best would be highly arrogant.

Depends on what kind of price tag was put on the 'help'.

[Woodruff]

Which at it's best would be highly arrogant.

Depends on what kind of price tag was put on the 'help'.

Perhaps to a degree...but given the nature and scope of the problem, I'm not sure even that is relevant.

[King Doctor]

Which at it's best would be highly arrogant.

Depends on what kind of price tag was put on the 'help'.

Perhaps to a degree...but given the nature and scope of the problem, I'm not sure even that is relevant.

Well, it's easy enough to say that now with perfect hindsight. But on day three of this crisis, with several possible remedies yet to be implemented, was its final scope really apparent?


I, along with both the White House and the overall financial market's initial response to this crisis, would argue no.

[PLAYER57832]

I wonder if William Kruse might still be alive if our gov't had accepted the help of 13 foreign countries to clean up the oil spill on day #3...
It's quite possible. The spill would not have gotten so out of hand. Some regions may have been spared, but surely would be less contaminated.

This is pretty low, even for you. You would be, HAVE been the first to decry any and all "limitations" to "free market enterprise. Yet, the fact that Obama did not move quicker to limit BP over and above what the Bush administration did, means Obama is guilty?

As for "accepting help from 13 countries"... BP was in charge. Unfortunately, the administration doesn't have real experts in Oil drilling itself. That, again, is partly due to all you "decrease government" folks. See, experts cost money.

In this, Korea does have the jump on us. There, at least everyone equally knows "the truth".

[Simon Viavant]

So, to illustrate his point about how exploiting a crisis is evil, Phatty shows how some guy committed suicide and that it's Obama's fault. That's not ironic at all.