Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 41/44 [Quenched]

[jefjef]

I agree with Kab. At this stage I think we should only change something if there's a majot problem somewhere. While we're always open to constructive critisism, after 6 months of revisions I think we're pretty close to moving to the next stage.

It's time this moves forward! This map is fantastic. Let's move it forward!

[Kabanellas]

Thanks Jef!!


Well, waiting for one of the boys in Blue... Actually Ian said he would come soon to take a good look at it.

[Evil DIMwit]

Sorry about the delay. Ian's looked at the map and his one complaint is that the continent bonuses aren't very balanced considering their territory counts (or vice versa). For example, Spain has bonus 2 for 6 territories, while France has the same number but gets an impressive 5 bonus, plus more opportunities for expansion. Similarly, the Ottoman Empire gets 3 bonus for 8 territories while Prussia has the same bonus for half as many.

Other than that the map seems fine but I do want to take a closer look myself once I have time.

[Raskholnikov]

Kab, do you want to answer that? You're the Bonus Guru... ... and better placed to explain how we balanced numbers balance with historical balance with land, naval and territory bonuses in order to come close to an actual 1812 game as opposed to interchangeable sets of colored regions...

[Kabanellas]

Those bonus came all from the bonus calculator, but actually they might need some adjustments, because of the changes in the ‘Battle Site’ bonus.
Let’s review them:

-For Spain the calculator asks for a bonus of 4 troops
We have 2 from Zone/Base bonus + 1 auto-deploy in Madrid=3
Owning Spain will also mean that you are very close to get the ‘Battle site’ bonus which will mean a plus 2 troop income, also quite easily combined with Portugal +1
So, the owner of the peninsula could be receiving a total bonus of 2+1+2+1(a/d) = 6 troops to protect 4 borders.
Well not sure if we should raise Spain base bonus to 3.

-France, asks for 6
We have 5 + 1 a/d in Paris. And France is France! Napoleon rules!!!

-UK, asks for 3
I’m giving it 3 + 1 a/d in London, with lots of possible sea expansion… Should we decrease?

-The Rhine, asks for 5
We have 3 from zone bonus and a very good chance to get the extra 2 from the Battle bonus – this is particularly important for someone that already owns another surrounding country.
I would raise its base bonus from 3 to 4... I guess

-Prussia, asks for 4
I’m giving it 3 + 1 a/d from Berlin

-Austria, asks for 5
I’m giving it 4 + 1 a/d from Vienna

-Russia, asks for 8
I’m giving 5 (zone) + 1 a/d from Moscow + 2 from the ‘Battle site’ bonus = 8

-The Ottoman Empire, asks for 5
I’m giving 3 + 1 a/d from Istambul , but with a very good chance of getting the Orient (Egypt+Palestine) which will yield a total of + 3. Also, a fairly good chance of sea expansion meaning a reduction of borders.

[Raskholnikov]

Thank you Kab. I wouldn't change any of the bonuses, as they are all within the allowed leeway and correspond to the historical balance of power at the time. It makes no sense to increase Spain and the Rhine and decrease the UK. Unless there is a glaring and obvious error that needs to be fixed (doesn't look like it) the game should be beta tested as is. Then we can make any adjustments, if needed. depending on how the game proceeds -exactly like you did with 3. Crusade. Many thanks for taking the time to break down all the bonus combinations in so much detail.

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... that's an interesting way of breaking down the bonuses but I think it works.

[Evil DIMwit]

Impressive breakdown. Not perfect, but impressive.

-For Spain the calculator asks for a bonus of 4 troops
We have 2 from Zone/Base bonus + 1 auto-deploy in Madrid=3
Owning Spain will also mean that you are very close to get the ‘Battle site’ bonus which will mean a plus 2 troop income, also quite easily combined with Portugal +1
So, the owner of the peninsula could be receiving a total bonus of 2+1+2+1(a/d) = 6 troops to protect 4 borders.
Well not sure if we should raise Spain base bonus to 3.

It does seem a little silly to have a country as large as Spain only yield 2 armies at base but if the whole of Iberia is taken into account, I do think it makes a fine continent. A player will probably expand into the whole of Spain from Portugal and/or the battles, so this is essentially a bonus for Andalucia, Valencia, and Catalonia.

-France, asks for 6
We have 5 + 1 a/d in Paris. And France is France! Napoleon rules!!!

Fails to take into account France's high expansion potential, but that's offset by the fact that every expansion opens at least one more border. Still, it's an incredibly dominant continent, so I'd add a territory or two to France proper to make sure it's not snapped up too quickly in 2-team games.

-UK, asks for 3
I’m giving it 3 + 1 a/d in London, with lots of possible sea expansion… Should we decrease?

With the surrounding naval battles, it's 6 bonus for defending 10 territories at 4 points -- analogous to all of Iberia.

-The Rhine, asks for 5
We have 3 from zone bonus and a very good chance to get the extra 2 from the Battle bonus – this is particularly important for someone that already owns another surrounding country.
I would raise its base bonus from 3 to 4... I guess

Well, Berlin and Vienna are both right next to it with only a single-border gain so I don't think you need to increase the bonus.

-Prussia, asks for 4
I’m giving it 3 + 1 a/d from Berlin

High expansion potential, but central location. I'd tone it down just a little bit by making Warsaw neutral 3 instead of Krakow.

-Austria, asks for 5
I’m giving it 4 + 1 a/d from Vienna

-Russia, asks for 8
I’m giving 5 (zone) + 1 a/d from Moscow + 2 from the ‘Battle site’ bonus = 8

No complaints for either.

-The Ottoman Empire, asks for 5
I’m giving 3 + 1 a/d from Istambul , but with a very good chance of getting the Orient (Egypt+Palestine) which will yield a total of + 3. Also, a fairly good chance of sea expansion meaning a reduction of borders.

Basic package still rather underpowered and by the time someone can conquer the whole Empire, the rest of the world will all have taken easier bonuses.. My recommendation: Either make the Orient a separate bonus or (preferably) tie its bonus to possession of Istanbul, not the whole Empire. Thus if you hold your border at Rumelia, Aboukir, and Dardanelles, you get +5 total bonus for 8 territories and 3 defense points, which is (just under) what the bonus calculator recommends.

A couple you haven't mentioned:
-Scandinavia, asks for 4
2 from K. of Denmark + 2 from K. of Sweden. Nothing really wrong with this, but it's a relatively easy region to keep and hold, if not to expand from.

-All of Italy, asks for 4 (5 with Sardinia)
I think you've overlooked this one because it's definitely overpowered. Once you have Naples, it's very easy to expand to the rest of the Boot -- every single territory gives you +1 and you only need 3 territories to hold the whole thing. Sardinia affords a nice defense or an easy bonus to expand to (as does Switzerland, though I'd leave it defensive myself); and moreover there are two battle sites on the Boot alone, so if you manage to hold, say, Egypt, you could get get 2 from K. of Naples + 1 Rome + 1 Piedmont + 1 Italy + 1 Sardinia + 2 from battles = 8 when the Calculator asks for about 6.5. I recommend, at the very least, uniting Rome and Piedmont into a single +1 bonus.

[Raskholnikov]

Thank you for your detailed and careful analysis; much appreciated. Subject to Kab's comments, this is what I think:

France: I would still leave France as is. After all this is Napoleonic France and that must be worth an advantage. In any case, as soon as anyone holds France he will be attacked from all sides and it won't be easy to hold.

UK: UK being analogous to all of Iberia makes sense. I would not decrease anything.

The Rhine: I agree with you.

Prussia: Agreed, as long as Kab agrees too. No problem to switch the neutral 3 from Krakow to Warsaw.

Ottomans: I would not be averse to making Orient a separate bonus, but I would not agree to make Istanbul such a mega-power. The Ottomans had at the time just surrendered on the Danube and ceded Bessarabia to Russia. I realise the game must be balanced but I still think the Ottomans should be at the lower end of the allowable bonus limits.
9
In any case, consider: holding borders on Rumelia, Serbia, Bosnia, Dardanelles and Aboukir is: 3 (basic bonus) +1 (istanbul) +1 (Orient bonus) +2 (3 battles) + 1 (2 naval battles) = 8. Add Bassarabia and it's +9. That is quite a powerful package. And yes, Orient already is a separate bonus If we reinforce th Ottomans any more we will need to change the title from Europe 1812 to Europe 1612!!

Scandinavia: I would leave it as is unless there is a major issue with it (doesn't seem to be).

Italy: I would agree to make Piedmont and Rome together a +1 bonus. It more accurately represents historical realities. Thank you for this.

My key issues: France and th UK should not be weakened and the Ottomans should not be strengthened in any major way.

Thank you again for your very helpful and constructive input.

[Evil DIMwit]

In any case, consider: holding borders on Rumelia, Serbia, Bosnia, Dardanelles and Aboukir is: 3 (basic bonus) +1 (istanbul) +1 (Orient bonus) +2 (3 battles) + 1 (2 naval battles) = 8. Add Bassarabia and it's +9. That is quite a powerful package. And yes, Orient already is a separate bonus If we reinforce th Ottomans any more we will need to change the title from Europe 1812 to Europe 1612!!

Bessarabia doesn't help much because it gives another territory to defend. Other than that, you have a point -- the full Ottoman Empire gives the same bonus at the Russian Empire with one less territory to defend.

France: I would still leave France as is. After all this is Napoleonic France and that must be worth an advantage. In any case, as soon as anyone holds France he will be attacked from all sides and it won't be easy to hold.

My point of contention here is that this map will not just be played in 3- to 8-player games. There will be 1v1s, 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s; and if one team happens to drop quick control of France then they hold a very easy advantage. All I'm proposing is another internal territory to make it a little more difficult to take control of.

[Evil DIMwit]

France: I would still leave France as is. After all this is Napoleonic France and that must be worth an advantage. In any case, as soon as anyone holds France he will be attacked from all sides and it won't be easy to hold.

My point of contention here is that this map will not just be played in 3- to 8-player games. There will be 1v1s, 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s; and if one team happens to drop quick control of France then they hold a very easy advantage. All I'm proposing is another internal territory to make it a little more difficult to take control of. Perhaps offset it in the territory count by merging Syria and Anatolia, which would make the core Ottoman bonus easier to take and defend while leaving the greater Ottoman Empire essentially the same -- which is, I think, essentially the fix the region needs.

[Raskholnikov]

All I'm proposing is another internal territory to make it a little more difficult to take control of. Perhaps offset it in the territory count by merging Syria and Anatolia, which would make the core Ottoman bonus easier to take and defend while leaving the greater Ottoman Empire essentially the same -- which is, I think, exactly the fix the region needs.

If Kab agrees, I am Ok with splitting Normandy into Brittany and Normandy, as well as merging Anatolia and Syria.

So, these would be all the changes required to have the map move forward:

1. Change the +2 neutral from Krakow to Warsaw;
2. Piedmont and Rome together would give a +1 bonus to Naples;
3. Normandy would be split into Brittany and Normandy;
4. Syria would be merged into Anatolia.

If you agree that this is the full list of changes required for your approval of the map, and subject to Kab's approval, I agree to go ahead and make them.

[Evil DIMwit]

On second thought, I see your point about the full Ottoman Empire being rather strong -- fully expanded, it gives the same bonus as the Russian Empire, with one more territory to hold and one fewer to defend. On the other hand, it seems to have less expansion opportunity... I'd like to see what Kab thinks about this.

[Raskholnikov]

Our thinking on designing this was as follows: the core Ottoman empire should be weak to represent historical realities; BUT in order to make sure players don't ignore this quarter of the map and focus just on central europe, allow for the possibility of a strong Ottoman Empire though bonuses. This way, players will be attracted to the Middle East both by Sea (aboukir and dardanelles) and land (eastern europe) to get these bonuses and to stop the Ottomans from consolidating into a juggernaught - thus ensuring the action would be expanded to the entire board.

On btw the Ottomans are whichever player gets hold of and controls Istanbul

[jefjef]

Instead of adding another tert to France I like the idea of Paris being increased to a Neutral 6. That works very well with London Europe 1914.

[Raskholnikov]

No. Capitals are way too important here. Without one there are no swords bonuses. France will become a lame duck then. That's the exact opposite of what this map is all about. I am ok with another territory as pee Evil's suggestion, but not to raising Paris to +6.

[Raskholnikov]

Hi Kab,

1. Change the +2 neutral from Krakow to Warsaw;
2. Piedmont and Rome together would give a +1 bonus to Naples;
3. Normandy would be split into Brittany and Normandy (the new border would be right around the "N" of Normandy from the Channel to the Paris border - with the Boulogne battle link still in Normandy).
4. Syria would be merged into Anatolia.

What do you think of these four changes? If you agree, and Evil confirms this would fix all his concerns, can we go ahead and get them done please?

Thanks,

Rask

[Kabanellas]

I agree with everything

I'll post the changes tomorrow.

Hi Kab,

1. Change the +2 neutral from Krakow to Warsaw;
2. Piedmont and Rome together would give a +1 bonus to Naples;
3. Normandy would be split into Brittany and Normandy (the new border would be right around the "N" of Normandy from the Channel to the Paris border - with the Boulogne battle link still in Normandy).
4. Syria would be merged into Anatolia.

What do you think of these four changes? If you agree, and Evil confirms this would fix all his concerns, can we go ahead and get them done please?

Thanks,

Rask

[Raskholnikov]

Yey! Yes We CAN! Thank you very much Kab

[Kabanellas]

Here it is!

(I want Brittany to touch Paris)

Click image to enlarge.

[Raskholnikov]

Wow! Perfect! Everything is great! Thank you Kab!

Evil, I hope this meets with your approval and you can allow the map to now move on. Thanks for your most helpful input!

[Evil DIMwit]

Looking good. I'll just sticky this for about 24 hours to give folks one last chance to find major gameplay problems, and then it'll be ready for stamping.

[Kabanellas]

Great!! thanks Evil

[Raskholnikov]

Thank you Evil! And especially you kab for all the amazing work!

[Evil DIMwit]

Seeing as how no one seems to have any further comments:



Congrats.

Allow me to kick off your stay in the graphics workshop with a question: Why does Poland's national border apply to Warsaw and Krakow independently?