'My heart, my choice"

[Phatscotty]

Newfoundland and Labrador is hardly the most progressive province in Canada.

I'm speaking in relative terms of course. Half the province didn't have electricity or indoor plumbing a couple of decades ago. Now their economy is actually pretty strong. For all I know they have built hospitals there to replace all the medical tents.

woops I misinterpreted your typo. Then i don't realy have anything to comment on this. Though I think you are exaggerating the lack of development slightly.

I'm actually exaggerating the amount of new development, change and modernization since the 1980s but not much.

And Canadians always wonder..."Why can't America be more like us? Like US!!"

[PLAYER57832]

'My heart, my choice,' Williams says, defending decision for U.S. heart surgery

By Tara Brautigam (CP)

An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.

... rest of story http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... _b-gsGGDxA

but by all means, feel free to entirely skip the story and still make a comment on the story. These are just a few exceprts I took from it.

Danny Williams
- "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

- His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said. That's when he met and was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas (Miami), a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries. Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

- "I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time"

- "We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."

- "But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it.

you are posting this again, why?

The bottom line is that Canada's healthcare system has NO BEARING at all on the US plans. It is not the kind of system suggested here. Yet, you keep bringing it up.

[b.k. barunt]

I love Pregresive Country sauce. It reminds me of Tuscany during the 1930s.

I get the same nostalgic epiphanies when i eat a Moon Pie or drink and RC Cola - reminds me of Selma during the 1960s.


Honibaz

[Juan_Bottom]

B.K.?

They said you were dead or worse....

[b.k. barunt]

B.K.?

They said you were dead or worse....

Worse - i was brutally censured and left for dead. I've been wandering the wastelands for the past 6 months and have returned to a bleak landscape. A whore! A whore! My kingdom for a whore!


Honibaz

[Phatscotty]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

i responded, it was a statement from his office, sorry I included you here, we did actually get to the bottom of it in the other thread. Timminz was just trying to get me to flame anyways, as usual.

[PLAYER57832]

Truth is, I could not get the surgary he got here where I am in PA.. I don't know I would go to Florida, but I would have to go somewhere. AND, my insurance would not cover it.

So, any way you slice it, he got a better deal than most of us here in the US.

[Phatscotty]

Truth is, I could not get the surgary he got here where I am in PA.. I don't know I would go to Florida, but I would have to go somewhere. AND, my insurance would not cover it.

So, any way you slice it, he got a better deal than most of us here in the US.

uhhhhh, given he came to the US, and paid US prices, what kind of deal is it he got?

[Phatscotty]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said. That's when he met and was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas (Miami), a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries. Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

[Snorri1234]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was also not available in Canada for a good reason. The whole medical community doesn't yet approve of it. They are probably going to approve of it, but as of now this is something that a few doctors and mostly the dude the guy visited do.

He wanted the easy fix. There's nothing against that. Doctors in Canada are just not willing to give that easy fix yet.

[Phatscotty]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was also not available in Canada for a good reason. The whole medical community doesn't yet approve of it. They are probably going to approve of it, but as of now this is something that a few doctors and mostly the dude the guy visited do.

He wanted the easy fix. There's nothing against that. Doctors in Canada are just not willing to give that easy fix yet.

perhaps if there were a system that could support such cutting edge medical technologies...

[Nobunaga]

you are posting this again, why?

The bottom line is that Canada's healthcare system has NO BEARING at all on the US plans. It is not the kind of system suggested here. Yet, you keep bringing it up.

... Were you paying attention you would see that the Canadian system of single payer absolutely is the final goal of what is being proposed.

... Not all at once, of course. Too many Americans yet cling to this idiotic backwoods notion that a host of other measures, such as lifting the state restriction, would do more to help more people than a government run system. Too damned many of these tea-bagging redneck racists around to do this all at once.

... First you (you = government) offer an expanded government plan through things such as reductions in age limitations for medicare and the like, and offer a government plan that will cover anybody with any previous condition while mandating through law that all insurance providers also provide coverage for such. And you call this "competition".

... Then you watch private insurers drop like flies, because unlike government, they have bottom lines that actually have to be in the black in order to survive.

... And then what remains? Whaddaya know? Single payer.

...

[2dimes]

Newfoundland and Labrador is hardly the most progressive province in Canada.

I'm speaking in relative terms of course. Half the province didn't have electricity or indoor plumbing a couple of decades ago. Now their economy is actually pretty strong. For all I know they have built hospitals there to replace all the medical tents.

woops I misinterpreted your typo. Then i don't realy have anything to comment on this. Though I think you are exaggerating the lack of development slightly.

I'm actually exaggerating the amount of new development, change and modernization since the 1980s but not much.

And Canadians always wonder..."Why can't America be more like us? Like US!!"

Yes, I allways wonder..."Why can't America be more like Newfoundland?"

[Baron Von PWN]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said. That's when he met and was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas (Miami), a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries. Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

I wasn't quoting if I was I would have use these "" or the quote function. Furthermore he didn't need that surgery the other two would have healed him as well. Maybe they would take longer to heal but he would get the care he needed. He chose the luxury option which is great for him, maybe it isn't the most efficient way to ensure everyone get's care though. Which at the end of the day is what we care about more.

[Phatscotty]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said. That's when he met and was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas (Miami), a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries. Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

I wasn't quoting if I was I would have use these "" or the quote function. Furthermore he didn't need that surgery the other two would have healed him as well. Maybe they would take longer to heal but he would get the care he needed. He chose the luxury option which is great for him, maybe it isn't the most efficient way to ensure everyone get's care though. Which at the end of the day is what we care about more.

yeah ok. I was only pointing out that the procedure he had was not available to him in Canada.

"I can't get the health care I need in Canada" stands.

[MeDeFe]

yes yes, however, there were challenges to quotes, by the likes of Timminz and Baron, saying I made them up. Sometimes this is the only way to educate.

Actually you did make up your quote. You claimed Danny Williams said "I can't get the care I need in Canada". He clearly didn't say that. He said he chose to take a quicker more painless surgery over the more painful and slow healing surgery offered in Canada. So the service he needed was available in Canada he just chose a quicker and lower impact surgery.

The "quicker, more painless surgery" was not available. He also said he was "given two options" The care he received in the USA obviously was not one of the options his Canadian doctors offered. Who's making quotes up? I have all 3 articles in my stash. Careful how you try to twist, I can make the wind blow....

His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said. That's when he met and was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas (Miami), a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries. Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

I wasn't quoting if I was I would have use these "" or the quote function. Furthermore he didn't need that surgery the other two would have healed him as well. Maybe they would take longer to heal but he would get the care he needed. He chose the luxury option which is great for him, maybe it isn't the most efficient way to ensure everyone get's care though. Which at the end of the day is what we care about more.

yeah ok. I was only pointing out that the procedure he had was not available to him in Canada.

"I can't get the health care I want in Canada" stands.

Fixed it for you.

[PLAYER57832]

Truth is, I could not get the surgary he got here where I am in PA.. I don't know I would go to Florida, but I would have to go somewhere. AND, my insurance would not cover it.

So, any way you slice it, he got a better deal than most of us here in the US.

uhhhhh, given he came to the US, and paid US prices, what kind of deal is it he got?

According to the article, he is eligible for some reimbursement.

Second, he was able to go to a doctor in his own country to diagnose him, etc. In the US, many cannot even get that far.

[Baron Von PWN]

yeah ok. I was only pointing out that the procedure he had was not available to him in Canada.

"I can't get the health care I need in Canada" stands.

No it does not. He didn't need that procedure to fix his heart problem, he could have gotten what most other Canadians get an take some sick leave. I understand why he didn't want to do that but he didn't need to go to the US he could have gotten his heart problem fixed in Canada.

So as Medefe pointed out this is more a case of " I can't get the healthcare I want" rather than need.

[Jolly Roger]

Danny Williams could have stayed in Canada for top cardiac care, doctors say

Tom Blackwell, National Post

Danny Williams' decision to seek out heart surgery in the United States may seem like an embarrassing blow to Canadian health care, but cardiac specialists say the Newfoundland Premier could have obtained virtually any heart treatment in his own country, carried out by top-notch doctors.

Long wait times for cardiac surgery were a problem 15 years ago but are generally "a thing of the past" in most parts of Canada, physicians insist.

... rest of story http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2514581

but by all means, feel free to entirely skip the story and still make a comment on the story. These are just a few exceprts I took from it.

- Virtually all forms of cardiac surgery are looked after in Canada, and I would say extremely well," said Dr. Chris Feindel, a cardiac surgeon at Toronto's University Health Network. "Personally ... I would have my cardiac surgery done in Canada, no matter what resources I had at my disposal."

- patients from the United States and other countries come to the UHN's Peter Munk Cardiac Centre for valve repairs, a procedure developed by Toronto surgeons

- In fact, Newfoundland is able to provide bypasses and other common heart operations at home, but routinely ships patients to Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa for rarer procedures, such as transplants and treatment of congenital heart defects, said Dr. Eric Stone, a St. John's cardiologist.

- There are simply not enough cases of that sort for surgeons in Newfoundland to develop the requisite expertise, he said. In 28 years, though, Dr. Stone said he has never had to refer a patient to the U.S.

This country's heart care is otherwise on a par with the States, agreed Dr. Blair O'Neill, vice president-elect of the Canadian Cardiovascular Society. "I would say the expertise in Canadian centres is quite high and the type of procedures they do are definitely leading edge," said the Edmonton cardiologist.

Canadian health care survives Danny Williams’ surgery

by John Geddes, Macleans

Since I support the single-payer model, I admit I was worried about how details of Williams’ condition and treatment, when he finally talked about them, might reflect on Canadian cardiac care. If it turned out he had needed some esoteric procedure not available in Canada, I figured the critics would have a field day.

But the reality appears to be the opposite of what I feared. Williams needed an operation on his mitral valve. His office admits the procedure was, in fact, available in Canada. It’s more than that, though: Canadian cardiac surgeons happen to be renowned for their expertise in valve repair.

It was two Canadian physicians who wrote the how-to paper on valve surgery published only late last year in the New England Journal of Medicine. There are famous surgeons like Toronto’s Dr. Tirone David, who’s been called a “virtuoso” valve man. Minimally invasive procedures, the style of surgery Williams chose, are offered in Canada in places like the University of Ottawa Heart Institute.

... rest of story http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/cana ... s-surgery/

but by all means, feel free to entirely skip the story and still make a comment on the story. These are just a few exceprts I took from it.

- None of this is to suggest that Williams might not have had good reason to go to Miami. He might have heard impressive things about the surgeon who worked on him there. He might have preferred to be close to his Florida condo for recuperation. He might have liked the sound of the amenities and privacy offered by a pricey U.S. hospital.

- And now we know that his category of heart problem, far from being one Canadian surgeons can’t handle, is one of their fortes.

- When Paul Tsongas, the former Massachusetts senator, was running for president in 1992, he lashed out at the Canadian health model. Tsongas had suffered from lymphoma, and he said, rather dramatically, that the bone marrow transplant that saved his life was an example of how the American system spurred innovation that would never happen under creativity-stifling Canadian-style health care. It was a gripping personalized take on the issue. The only problem was that the key research breakthroughs that led to bone marrow transplants were made in Toronto, and Canadians, at the time Tsongas was speaking, were receiving the procedure more often than Americans.

- Minimally invasive mitral valve repair consists of doing an MV repair surgically through a 5 cm small side chest incision instead of a 10 cm incision in the middle of the chest. A recent survey published at the Society of Thoracic Surgeons meeting (Jan 2010) expressed some word of caution and showed it is not recommended for complex mitral valve repair and also that the rate of complication (strokes in particular) is higher.

- I don’t know the reasons Mr. Williams opted to have his operation in Florida. It is certainly not because minimally invasive mitral valve repair is not available in Canada. Canadian heart surgeons routinely do minimally invasive mitral valve repair including techniques involvng endoscopic and robotic approaches.

[PLAYER57832]

you are posting this again, why?

The bottom line is that Canada's healthcare system has NO BEARING at all on the US plans. It is not the kind of system suggested here. Yet, you keep bringing it up.

... Were you paying attention you would see that the Canadian system of single payer absolutely is the final goal of what is being proposed.

Were YOU paying attention to reality instead of the blather put forth by the insurance lobbies you would see this is not true.

FURTHERMORE, the Canadien system goes a good deal further than just a "single payer system". And is absolutely not anything that anyone with sense would embrace in the US.

[
... Not all at once, of course. Too many Americans yet cling to this idiotic backwoods notion that a host of other measures, such as lifting the state restriction, would do more to help more people than a government run system. Too damned many of these tea-bagging redneck racists around to do this all at once.

As opposed to thinking that health care can actually be fixed by "Chicago-style", competition rules, capitalistic ideas. Problem with YOUR thinking is that the rest of the world provides plenty of proof you are wrong. In fact, even the current US system, if you really look at where it fails, shows that this is not about simply introducing competition.

For one thing, as long as employers and not individuals are buying insurance, it is not even close to a consumer market system. Second, people don't have the luxury of "shopping around" for most healthcare, for all sorts of reasons. This article pointed to one of the few exceptions, but in most cases people don't have those options for reasons that have nothing to do with insurance payments. (but insurance restrictions absolutely complicate the system!)

... First you (you = government) offer an expanded government plan through things such as reductions in age limitations for medicare and the like, and offer a government plan that will cover anybody with any previous condition while mandating through law that all insurance providers also provide coverage for such. And you call this "competition".

And no, I don't call it "competition". I call it "universal coverage of health care". AND I call it a far cheaper alternative for all but the lucky few who are currently given full coverage -- a lucky few who are shrinking and who, too often, find they have paid for years into a company policy that is suddenly cancelled when its needed.... followed by ALL companies denying coverage in the future unless the person pays exhorbitant fees.

Claiming that this represents a "loss" because some people don't need all that coverage is like claiming that you lose when your house doesn't burn down! True, but... a very stupid argument, none-the-less!

... Then you watch private insurers drop like flies, because unlike government, they have bottom lines that actually have to be in the black in order to survive.

Like they have in Germany and France... ??? (hint-- they HAVE NOT!)
No, the truth is that insurance companies will be seeing their incomes drop phenomenally. This is a huge threat to them, but represents savings that can be then applied to HEALTH CARE instead of executive salaries and stockholder dividends.

... And then what remains? Whaddaya know? Single payer.

...

Oh, I see.. just like every other country on Earth?

Well... no. Furthermore, single payer is not this terrible boondoggle you keep insisting it must be. You criticize those systems, but don't seriously look at how things work in other countries.

Why don't you compare that to what happens now, what will happen if we continue to let the INSURANCE COMPANIES dictate the rules. (Note, I definitely did NOT say "doctors" or "health care professionals!" dictate!)

Right now, we have so many people uninsured and UNDERINSURED that most cities, counties and states are ready to go bankrupt. NOTE that this is not about the "idiot deralict who won't work" -- ironically, they, or at least their kids, DO get 100% coverage right now and pretty decent coverage at that! (they get eye, dental and EVERYTHING) No, the people who are hit the hardest are the small business owners, the low-income WORKERS, and many others who pay into insurance, then get really really sick. The insurance companies then scour through their policies to find even the minutest of errors and use that as reason to retroactively deny a policy in effect for years.

Oh, and who PAYS for that garbage? ALL OF US! WE pay because doctors now need to have an AVERAGE of 8 additional people in their office simply to fill out insurance claim forms!

[PLAYER57832]

PS you might try reading the above article... yet more evidence of how even Canada's system is STILL not so horribly worse than the US system!

Clue -- equal care, CHEAPER!

[Phatscotty]

yeah ok. I was only pointing out that the procedure he had was not available to him in Canada.

"I can't get the health care I need in Canada" stands.

No it does not. He didn't need that procedure to fix his heart problem, he could have gotten what most other Canadians get an take some sick leave. I understand why he didn't want to do that but he didn't need to go to the US he could have gotten his heart problem fixed in Canada.

So as Medefe pointed out this is more a case of " I can't get the healthcare I want" rather than need.

Hmmm, other people deciding what procedure one needs....... sounds scary. not to mention the impact on the economy (it sounds like you guys are ok staying out of work for 500-20,000% longer...)

But I digress, if you are saying you health system is so great because everyone has access to the same shitty bone breaking procedure, then that's your opinion. I like the freedom of choice to the best health care I can get, and would not feel comfortable traveling to and depending on a different country to get it. Health Care delayed is health care denied....

I just don't understand where the hell is Canada's ambition? Why Canadians are so content on settling for less. Why don't they strive and work hard to create and invent ways to get their subjects their own access to state of the art health-care. This is even a more funny quote..

- "But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it.

This is not the first time I have noticed you Baron so willing to accept second class care. I enjoy that even the Premeir does not have a clue as to how the entitlement process works, and that he is in a way already expecting nothing, and he's ok with that. In the end, he didnt get it in Canada, and he probably isn't getting it paid for by Canada.

Universal health care....If you don't mind being bed ridden for months, while watching people who can afford to get care in America bounce right back up and enjoy a life that is always too short.

I stands the Premier was rejected for the best possible procedure by Canada.

[Snorri1234]

Hmmm, other people deciding what procedure one needs....... sounds scary.

OH SHIT MAN! DOCTORS...DECIDING WHAT IS MEDICALLY NECCESARY AND WHAT IS NOT?! SOCIALISM GOAN MAD!!!!

Dude, by definition doctors decide what you need. You can feel that you really need homeopathic medicine, but you can kindly f*ck off out the hospital and buy that shit somewhere else.

not to mention the impact on the economy (it sounds like you guys are ok staying out of work for 500-20,000% longer...)

What with the millions of people needing open-heart surgery in Canada every day I can understand this must have a disasterour impact on the economy.

But I digress, if you are saying you health system is so great because everyone has access to the same shitty bone breaking procedure, then that's your opinion.

If however, he is saying that if doctors say you don't need this kind of care then that is not merely an opinion.

I just don't understand where the hell is Canada's ambition? Why Canadians are so content on settling for less. Why don't they strive and work hard to create and invent ways to get their subjects their own access to state of the art health-care.

Because it is not economically feasible? Canada doesn't have some of these procedures for the same reason the small town where I grew up doesn't have a huge hospital.

- "But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it.

This is not the first time I have noticed you Baron so willing to accept second class care. I enjoy that even the Premeir does not have a clue as to how the entitlement process works, and that he is in a way already expecting nothing, and he's ok with that. In the end, he didnt get it in Canada, and he probably isn't getting it paid for by Canada.

He doesn't know if he is covered for this procedure. That goes for most people in the USA too. Plenty of insurances don't cover particular stuff. And that goes for care in your own fucking country. He would have no doubt that if he got the operation in Canada he would be covered, not in the slightest.

I stands the Premier was rejected for the best possible procedure by Canada.

Except it isn't the best possible procedure.

[PLAYER57832]

But I digress, if you are saying you health system is so great because everyone has access to the same shitty bone breaking procedure, then that's your opinion. I like the freedom of choice to the best health care I can get, and would not feel comfortable traveling to and depending on a different country to get it. Health Care delayed is health care denied....

So you obviously missed the part where he pointed out that Canada actually DOES OFFER the SAME procedure at a Toronto hospital. He was denied nothing. He just decided to go to Florida for his own reasons.. and had that option.

Universal health care....If you don't mind being bed ridden for months,

show some data, please, because this truly sounds like something you pulled out of the air.. or rather, right wing blogs.

while watching people who can afford to get care in America bounce right back up and enjoy a life that is always too short.

Ever been to a US Hospital? Sure doesn't seem like it! My father-in-law spent the last 2 years of his life in and out of hospitals. (AND he had GOOD coverage, he used to be a union worker!). He was misdiagnosed several times, almost died 3 times before the end and definitely had his quality of life impaired.

OR, my sister-in-law. Went to the hospital with pain in her leg, a cold, was sent home and wound up dead less than 48 hours later. (not joking!).

OR, the guy in my husband's fire dept, who had his hand operated upon. Tehy screwed up the surgary. He had to go somewhere else and last I heard lost a lot of use and was VERY, VERY lucky he did not lose the entire hand.

OR, the boy of an acquaintance, with a promising career in a sport, who went to the local orthapedist, was diagnosed with a bunyon... instead it turns out he had a bone infection and many wind up losing his foot.

OR, my husband, who broke his back (compound fracture.. he was VERY lucky). The doctor told him to "touch his toes" He did, so the doctor told him it wasn't broken. He got an x-ray anyway, on the orders of another doctor and yep-- it was broken in several places. (my husband has a VERY high pain tolerance).

OR... well, that's enough for our small town and is no where near a complete list, just the first few that came to mind.

NEWSFLASH Phattscotty, he GOT TO GO TO FLORIDA, and likely will get reimbursement. To many in the US who HAVE INSURANCE, who WORK FOR A LIVING (and probably a heck of lot harder than you) in the US DON'T have the ability to go get even BASIC CARE, because even with insurance, it is too expensive OR because their insurance will refuse to cover it... often nowadays they refuse even if the policy seems to say it should be covered, (retroactive denials of insurance, "mis entering" codes, etc.)

I stands the Premier was rejected for the best possible procedure by Canada.

No, it stands that, once again, you post a portion of something and continue to refuse any other details that don't cooincide with your views.

Had you read further, the truth was he COULD HAVE gotten the procedure in Canada.

Now, I am not saying that every person in Canada can just waltz in and get the latest procedure, but there are definite limits in the US as well. Limits that are often much worse. You have 1 doctor in any field who is top. He can only serve so many people, PERIOD!

[PLAYER57832]

The REAL CHOICE:

Universal health care -- some people may not always get the absolute best, but ALL people get a reasonable level of care and don't go broke getting it.

OUR system -- a few people can get care that no one else in the world can get... sometimes just barely better, occasionally a great deal better (largely thanks to government-funded research, NOT private research!); Meanwhile, MOST people get barely the care they need. A lot of people go broke to get the care they need and more go broke and STILL don't get the care they need. Meanwhile, the insurance companies get rich.