Macedonia map [Gp, Gr, X, BETA, Qnchd.]

[n.n.]

you should update the first post with the most recent image and update the title with the version number

Is it a must to update the image on the first page? Much of the comments would lose sense if i do that !?

To both skeletonboy and fumandomuerte:
Thanks for the continent bonuses suggestions - i agree with the logic behind it and have already changed them accordingly:

Skopje +3
Bitola +5 (if you take Kavadarci you reduce your bordering terits. From 4 to 3)
Veles +3
Tetovo +2
Ohrid +3
Kumanovo +2
Stip +4
Berovo +2
Strumica +4

lets now wait for others to comment on that...

Also i have added a thin border around the river so its completely clear that it also represents a border (+impassable) and i have removed the black squares and increased the continent names font but now the map looks kind of worse than it was before, will be posting a image of that these days after more discussion on the bonuses.

[skeletonboy]

It isnt a must, but it makes it a lot easier for those who are new to the thread. You could have all of the versions in the first post.

[natty dread]

It isnt a must, but it makes it a lot easier for those who are new to the thread. You could have all of the versions in the first post.

Actually, it is a must. First post should always contain the latest version of the map.

[n.n.]

It isnt a must, but it makes it a lot easier for those who are new to the thread. You could have all of the versions in the first post.

Actually, it is a must. First post should always contain the latest version of the map.

I added the latest version to the first post, kept the first version in also.

[natty dread]

It isnt a must, but it makes it a lot easier for those who are new to the thread. You could have all of the versions in the first post.

Actually, it is a must. First post should always contain the latest version of the map.

I added the latest version to the first post, kept the first version in also.

Nice, but the latest version should be first... that way it's easy for people to find. If you put the oldest first, people will comment on the wrong version, simply because people are expecting to find the latest version first... You know, because that's how everyone else does it...

[n.n.]

Nice, but the latest version should be first... that way it's easy for people to find. If you put the oldest first, people will comment on the wrong version, simply because people are expecting to find the latest version first... You know, because that's how everyone else does it...

ok, done

Waiting for the bonuses/other ideas and arguments...

[ifkas]

Freakin awesome map ! Thanks for making it nn !!!

I have no suggestions to add.. just perfect as it is for now ! good lookin macedonian map

[Evil DIMwit]

As far as gameplay, the layout is good but the bonuses need to be adjusted. My own recommendations differ a little from fumandomuerte's (I've underlined the differences):

Skopje: 3
Bitola: 4
Veles: 4
Tetovo: 2
Ohrid: 3
Kumanovo: 2
Stip: 5
Berovo: 2
Strumica: 4
Lakes: 3

Bitola is large but it can be defended with just a three-territory perimeter; it shouldn't be worth the most. Veles and Stip are highly connected, central continents and as such should be worth more.

[SWeko]

First of all, great map, and nice artwork too. (I am Macedonian, so I might be biased )
I think that this map will be very fun too play, as it looks there will be balanced gameplay.

I agree that Bitola can be defended on 3 territs, but it does have 8 territories (9 if you count kavadarci for defending), so it won't be an easy continent to take, even if it's easy to defend afterwards. +4 is too small a bonus for that, but maybe +6 is a bit too large.
I agree that Veles and Stip are the central and practically undefendable continents, but +5 is again large bonus for a 5 territories contintent, even if it has to be defended on every one of them.

Skopje: 3
Bitola: 5
Veles: 4
Tetovo: 2
Ohrid: 3
Kumanovo: 2
Stip: 4
Berovo: 2
Strumica: 4
Lakes: 3

[rtgs]

Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.

[skeletonboy]

Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.

Is this serbian? Using a translator I got this.

I of course as far as Kocani and Kumanovo not in the same region and very hard of Kocani to dojdesh in Kriva Palanka and Kratovo, many other difficulties of the mountain which is drawn on map. Above left neighbors of a lack of Kosovo.

[n.n.]

Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.

Its Macedonian.

He is saying that Kocani and Kumanovo should not be in the same region and/or that at least there should be mountains surrounding it (on the north and north-west, my guess) because it is not naturally and directly connected to K. Palanka and Kratovo. Also there is a Kosovo border missing in the North-West.

My response to that is that this is a decision made in the process of map drawing and that i am open to suggestions on how to make it better and more consistent with the real geography.
One possible and consistent solution would be to join Kocani with the Berovo continent and add mountains Kocani/Kratovo and Kocani/K. Palanka borders, that would also mean removing the mountains between Kratovo and Probistip in order to make the new Kumanovo continent open on more than one territory. (Also, there is a existing road between Kratovo and Probistip and these towns are close enough, as a justification for removing the mountains between them)
To this solution i would agree if rtgs (as a Macedonian with the knowledge of terrain in question) agrees to it.
It would make the map even more consistent to Macedonian geography and infrastructure in my opinion.

Unfortunately, this would also mean another revision of bonuses but my best guess is that you guys do not mind as long as this means having a better final product, at least i hope so.

On the Kosovo question - i will eventually add it but it is with lower priority since it does not affect the gameplay.

Will be adding new version soon...

[Pandemonium]

Nice, nice discussions...

Almost all valid points.
I would agree with SWeko's last post, and RTGS makes sense too, but I don't know that particular region that well, so I leave it to the map-creator to decide.

PS the drawing around the map start to get pretty dense and if more are added, the maps minimalistic beauty will be lost...

PPS the latest version doesn't load on the first post on page 1 (imageshack error probably...)

[n.n.]

Most recent version with some of the proposed changes implemented (mostly from rtgs), posted in the first post also.

Kocani is now part of the Berovo continent.

[natty dread]

I like the graphics otherwise, but those mountains will have to go... check out this thread on mountain making by RjBeals: viewtopic.php?f=466&t=78687

Also: why are some territory names in larger size than others? Are they capitals or something? If there's no reason relevant to gameplay then you should make them all the same size. It's kinda distracting.

Ah... now I see, they double as bonus area names. Still, I'd rather you'd find another way of distinguishing them from other territories. Maybe a coloured stroke on the text, or underline, italic, or something like that. But it'd look much better if they were the same size, in my opinion.

[kristijan_mk]

I disagree with Berovo being a region. Now that Region should be named Kocani (since its much bigger, and natural center of the region)

@natty_dread

I don't agree with putting mountains like in the link. Those kind of mountains suits different style of graphics. On this kind of graphics, there mountains are fine.

btw how does the process of map making continues? We should wait for some kind of sign or something?

[Evil DIMwit]

It's probably not a good idea to name every bonus area after a territory inside it unless you have a very compelling reason to. A single continent-territory pair with the same name isn't so bad (there are a few of those in playable maps) but doing it to every continent could get confusing.

btw how does the process of map making continues? We should wait for some kind of sign or something?

Well, once the gameplay's finished and it conforms to Foundry standards, there's a bit of behind-the-scenes bureaucracy and then the map gets a gameplay stamp. Then the topic gets moved to Graphics Workshop for all the art freaks to nitpick over it.
More or less.

[iancanton]

good start on this map!

this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf

have u considered using 3 sets of start positions in the tetovo and kumanovo bonus zones (if there are 4 or more players, then the 3 sets of start positions are ignored and everything is random)? there are 5 small bonus zones on this map, so it's reasonably likely for someone to start with a +2 or +3 bonus if there are no start positions (11% chance for player 1 in 1v1, 30% chance for any player in 1v1v1).

to avoid doubt, my comments in this thread are as a foundry member, since evil dimwit will be stamping the map.

ian.

[kristijan_mk]

good start on this map!

this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf

you have old map of Macedonian municipalities
new one can be seen here - http://travel2macedonia.com.mk/travel-t ... government
but regardless of maps... the highway doesn't pass nor through Kavadarci nor through Negotino. Both towns are around 15 km apart, so geographically there no big reason for changing the borders. there is no big reason not to change it, to be honest
On the other hand, I'm against removing the mountains between Gostivar and Kicevo. Basically if only one mountain exists on the map, this one would probably be the one

The trains are not the most important transport way in Macedonia since we have a small network of railroads. In real life if some army has to be transported, they will be either transported by road or in extremes (like germans at the end of WW2) they will make their own rails but that can't be implemented on the map

It's probably not a good idea to name every bonus area after a territory inside it unless you have a very compelling reason to. A single continent-territory pair with the same name isn't so bad (there are a few of those in playable maps) but doing it to every continent could get confusing.

The regions themselves are generally known by the major city i.e. Skopje region, Bitola region etc. Even smaller towns that are on the map are own regions in real life. There are some names that are used for statistical purposes, but naming regions by the major city is geographically correct

[Evil DIMwit]

The regions themselves are generally known by the major city i.e. Skopje region, Bitola region etc. Even smaller towns that are on the map are own regions in real life. There are some names that are used for statistical purposes, but naming regions by the major city is geographically correct

As long as it's clear that the bonus region is distinct from the territory, then, it's fine.

[iancanton]

this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf

you have old map of Macedonian municipalities
new one can be seen here - http://travel2macedonia.com.mk/travel-t ... government
but regardless of maps... the highway doesn't pass nor through Kavadarci nor through Negotino. Both towns are around 15 km apart, so geographically there no big reason for changing the borders. there is no big reason not to change it, to be honest

it certainly looks as if the railway passes through negotino, which is also very close to the route of the main highway.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... edonia.png
http://www.mkd.com.mk/regional/roadmap.htm

On the other hand, I'm against removing the mountains between Gostivar and Kicevo. Basically if only one mountain exists on the map, this one would probably be the one

if the mountain there is so symbolic, then i agree that we ought to keep it!

kristijan, it's especially useful to have comments from macedonians like u, not only to correct mistakes, but also to help to develop the character of the map.

ian.

[kristijan_mk]

as for the road through Negotino, it's very close to the town, but it doesn't passes through it. But that is nitpicking from my side, so I'll leave to the author of the map to decide. As I said, i have nothing strong against connectiong Negotino with Gevgelija.

As for the mountain between Gostivar and Kicevo, just to be clear... there is a road there, but the road goes from 500m altitude in Gostivar to 1200 m, and back to 600 m in Kicevo. And all that in 30-40 km. And from what I've seen on the maps, if there some more difficulty to pass from one territory to other, then that is impassable on the map.
Macedonia is mountainous country, so if we follow the geography literally, there will be mountains everywhere and just one or two road between regions. I don't think that map will be much fun that way.

[n.n.]

Hi to all !

Sorry for not posting here for some time...

Here is the latest version (also posted in first page of the topic):


Changes:
- Negotino is now bordering with Gevgelija
- Kosovo is removed from the bordering countries since it is not officialy an UN country (http://www.un.org/en/members/)

Thank you all for your comments, lets try to make this map happen !

[Evil DIMwit]

Everything seems to check out for the next step. Enjoy your shiny new

[n.n.]

Happy as a child !

So, here we are in the Graphics workshop, according to guidelines i should prepare a small version of the map and also try the map with the numbers (troops) included - am i correct?
Is there anything else i should do?

Thanks.