ATTENTION US service men and women

[Woodruff]

Geez, woody I was happy to see you back -- but now I remember you. Talk about conflicted.

Conflicted how? I've always thought of myself as VERY certain of my convictions (probably too certain, from others' perspectives <grin>).

I thought you left. He is back!!!!!

Who's back?

[colton24]

Geez, woody I was happy to see you back -- but now I remember you. Talk about conflicted.

Conflicted how? I've always thought of myself as VERY certain of my convictions (probably too certain, from others' perspectives <grin>).

I thought you left. He is back!!!!!

Who's back?

You.

[Woodruff]

Geez, woody I was happy to see you back -- but now I remember you. Talk about conflicted.

Conflicted how? I've always thought of myself as VERY certain of my convictions (probably too certain, from others' perspectives <grin>).

I thought you left. He is back!!!!!

Who's back?

You.

I'm a figment of your imagination.

[colton24]

Conflicted how? I've always thought of myself as VERY certain of my convictions (probably too certain, from others' perspectives <grin>).

I thought you left. He is back!!!!!

Who's back?

You.

I'm a figment of your imagination.

Yeah right

[Army of GOD]

I'm a figment of your imagination.

Wait. So I'm a figment of Colton's imagination too?

[Snorri1234]

Wow...you've got a couple of isolated incidents and that causes you to paint the entire group...not very...liberal of you, was it? <smile> Certainly, there are the "less than stable" in the military...unfortunately, that's a given for a VERY FEW of the specific jobs needed (infantry comes immediately to mind), and it may even be a preferred status in those few regards. But I would state that's a TREMENDOUS minority, rather than the "vice versa" you appear to be claiming.

As well, you don't seem to have addressed my question to you at all. Were you going to?

What question? About you coming of as brainwashed?

Yes...given that I've only one post in the thread and that's the only question I've asked you or anyone else in that post...

Well you didn't. We never discussed military in this way so I wonder why I would think you brainwashed.

Also, I am totally not understanding the rest of your response. Are you saying that the crazy people who torture and rape prisoners are a very small minority? Well whoohoo for you, I already said they were. Try responding to what I actually said.

I did. Your statement was "Seriously though, the way the American military brainwashes it's troops fucking scares me. It is far more severe than that of other countries." and yet, you have provided no actual basis for that statement. All you have provided is a couple of isolated statements. Do you have any actual basis for the statement, or are you just enjoying being able to pull things out of your ass without getting called on it?

While I certainly enjoy such things (being a liberal communist from europe), what I've provided is not actually isolated statements. It's an experience of 7 years watching guys in the forces talking about how awesomes killing terrorists is.

But even ignoring that. What I brought was how the USA military talks about it's troops, and how that is holy shit fucking crazy. You can't ignore that they are adding a whole lot of extra "patriotism, love for your country, duty as citizen" rhetoric to their recruiting-shit. This is not a matter of agree to disagree, it is obvious that the way the american military recruits people and the rest of the western world recruits people are vastly different. It's evident not only in small circles but in the top and into every way of life. Bush didn't just say this was a war between "good" and "evil", every recruit got that talk about how it was between good and evil. The terrorists hated your freedoms and wanted to rape your wife and bomb american cities and whatnot. Every war ever has indoctrination, to say it doesn't is just fucking ignorant. The allied in WW1 spread papers about how the enemy was evil and stuff, and it hasn't changed.

Any military (well any military that wants to have any chance of success) trains it's members to react instantly and effectively to whatever command they are given.

Yes. But you don't see the Dutch or the Brits torturing people. What makes it different is that they weren't told to hate the enemy. Sure, it made them less effective but who cares?

Other than the rare instances when an illegal order is given (for instance, to torture someone)

See. this is why I didn't want this conversation to happen. Torture was totally ok with the administration. Waterboarding is torture and to say it isn't is just fucked up.

, this is necessary for survival on the battlefield. That is the only thing that could even REMOTELY be considered in the vaguest realm to be considered "brainwashing" and isn't actually anything of the sort. What it IS is teaching it's members to have the discipline to do things they really don't want to do when they have to do it (as is, unfortunately, what war is all about). As I said, this is NO different from anything ANY military (successful) does. I speak from personal experience that there is no "brainwashing" going on outside of this.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that this "brainwashing" (i hate to use the term and think groupthink as Neo suggested is better) did occur. What you just said is brainwashing. Normal people don't do that shit without that stuff.

All of which has NOTHING AT ALL to do with statements that are made by sociopaths who just happen to BE in the military (which you seem to be using to substantiate your claims of brainwashing). Those sociopaths aren't that way because they're in the military...they're in the military because they're sociopaths and so the sociopaths see it as a "legal" outlet for their problems.

No actually, they are in the military because the military seems to be ok with them. If any of that shit was said in our military those guys would be kicked out fast.


Anyway, I'm probably rambling due to being drunk or whatnot.

[Snorri1234]

I just typed a whole lot of words, but I'm afraid I'm too drunk to actually understand what it says. Way man I'm drunk. That kind of drunk you get when it all seems just okay but another beer makes you fall of stools and stumble all over stuff.

I am drunker than that now, so Woodruff be so kind as to wait before I review my own comments about stuff I'm not understanding at the moment. (Like, I don't even know what I said about it previously exactly.)

[Woodruff]

Wow...you've got a couple of isolated incidents and that causes you to paint the entire group...not very...liberal of you, was it? <smile> Certainly, there are the "less than stable" in the military...unfortunately, that's a given for a VERY FEW of the specific jobs needed (infantry comes immediately to mind), and it may even be a preferred status in those few regards. But I would state that's a TREMENDOUS minority, rather than the "vice versa" you appear to be claiming.

As well, you don't seem to have addressed my question to you at all. Were you going to?

What question? About you coming of as brainwashed?

Yes...given that I've only one post in the thread and that's the only question I've asked you or anyone else in that post...

Well you didn't. We never discussed military in this way so I wonder why I would think you brainwashed.

I did mention my 23 years spent in the U.S. military...which apparently, you seem to believe means I have been brainwashed.

Also, I am totally not understanding the rest of your response. Are you saying that the crazy people who torture and rape prisoners are a very small minority? Well whoohoo for you, I already said they were. Try responding to what I actually said.

I did. Your statement was "Seriously though, the way the American military brainwashes it's troops fucking scares me. It is far more severe than that of other countries." and yet, you have provided no actual basis for that statement. All you have provided is a couple of isolated statements. Do you have any actual basis for the statement, or are you just enjoying being able to pull things out of your ass without getting called on it?

While I certainly enjoy such things (being a liberal communist from europe), what I've provided is not actually isolated statements. It's an experience of 7 years watching guys in the forces talking about how awesomes killing terrorists is.

I personally think that killing an actual terrorist is a very good thing. Better them than an innocent civilian, as far as I'm concerned. I would honestly and truly hope that most logical, thinking and feeling human beings would agree that killing a terrorist is a good thing. I don't see how that relates to anyone being brainwashed...more like people enjoying seeing justice being done.

But even ignoring that. What I brought was how the USA military talks about it's troops, and how that is holy shit fucking crazy. You can't ignore that they are adding a whole lot of extra "patriotism, love for your country, duty as citizen" rhetoric to their recruiting-shit.

I don't see that as brainwashing, I see that as advertising. Remember, they're trying to lure recruits into the military...you don't convince good people to join an organization by telling them that they're going to live in a hell-hole for six months of the year with nothing good to eat and get paid very little money. The military wants good people, so they've got to "sell" what they can, and that's "patriotism, love for your country, duty as a citizen". Give them a reason to be willing to accept the crap that goes with it. It's as simple as that. Do they over-sell it? Certainly...just like freaking McDonald's over-sells how great the Big Mac is.

This is not a matter of agree to disagree, it is obvious that the way the american military recruits people and the rest of the western world recruits people are vastly different. It's evident not only in small circles but in the top and into every way of life. Bush didn't just say this was a war between "good" and "evil", every recruit got that talk about how it was between good and evil.

This may come as a surprise to you, but just because someone is in the military doesn't mean they lose all ability to think for themselves. And while I embarrassingly heard Bush's statements, I never once heard that from any military person.

The terrorists hated your freedoms and wanted to rape your wife and bomb american cities and whatnot. Every war ever has indoctrination, to say it doesn't is just fucking ignorant. The allied in WW1 spread papers about how the enemy was evil and stuff, and it hasn't changed.

So then how does that explain why the "U.S. military's brainwashing it's troops fucking scares you". How does that mean "It is far more severe than that of other countries" if every military does it and it hasn't changed?

Any military (well any military that wants to have any chance of success) trains it's members to react instantly and effectively to whatever command they are given.

Yes. But you don't see the Dutch or the Brits torturing people. What makes it different is that they weren't told to hate the enemy. Sure, it made them less effective but who cares?

Incorrect, and not even close...the U.S. military has NEVER in my experience been taught to "hate the enemy". Certain INDIVIDUALS in the U.S. military have TAKEN IT UPON THEMSELVES to hate the enemy. And again, how often have the Dutch or Brits been put into positions where they might be ABLE to torture anyone? The fact is that the vast majority of these situtations are put under the U.S. military's control, because we're the ones with the vast majority of forces involved.

Other than the rare instances when an illegal order is given (for instance, to torture someone)

See. this is why I didn't want this conversation to happen. Torture was totally ok with the administration. Waterboarding is torture and to say it isn't is just fucked up.

You're right, it was...and I agree with you completely that it's just fucked up. It's inexcusable. And yet, I...someone who has apparently been severely brainwashed by the U.S. military for 23 years...I actually agree with you about that. How can that possibly be?

And PLEASE don't blame the military for things that Bush did. That's all on his dumb ass.

this is necessary for survival on the battlefield. That is the only thing that could even REMOTELY be considered in the vaguest realm to be considered "brainwashing" and isn't actually anything of the sort. What it IS is teaching it's members to have the discipline to do things they really don't want to do when they have to do it (as is, unfortunately, what war is all about). As I said, this is NO different from anything ANY military (successful) does. I speak from personal experience that there is no "brainwashing" going on outside of this.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that this "brainwashing" (i hate to use the term and think groupthink as Neo suggested is better) did occur. What you just said is brainwashing. Normal people don't do that shit without that stuff.

You are completely wrong. Firefighters train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to run into burning buildings?). Policemen train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to chase a suspect through a deserted building?). Emergency room workers train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to stick their hand into a bubbling chest in a desperate attempt to stop bleeding or re-start a heart?). Ambulance personnel train in this way (see previous example). You couldn't be further from the truth in this regard.

All of which has NOTHING AT ALL to do with statements that are made by sociopaths who just happen to BE in the military (which you seem to be using to substantiate your claims of brainwashing). Those sociopaths aren't that way because they're in the military...they're in the military because they're sociopaths and so the sociopaths see it as a "legal" outlet for their problems.

No actually, they are in the military because the military seems to be ok with them. If any of that shit was said in our military those guys would be kicked out fast.

So you ADMIT that they're not that way BECAUSE of the military, then...they're not that way because of any brainwashing, they were already sociopaths. And I tend to think you're wrong about them being kicked out of the Dutch military, as well, though I admittedly don't have any personal knowledge to draw that conclusion...perhaps you have some examples of it you can show me?

[Woodruff]

I just typed a whole lot of words, but I'm afraid I'm too drunk to actually understand what it says. Way man I'm drunk. That kind of drunk you get when it all seems just okay but another beer makes you fall of stools and stumble all over stuff.

I am drunker than that now, so Woodruff be so kind as to wait before I review my own comments about stuff I'm not understanding at the moment. (Like, I don't even know what I said about it previously exactly.)

Oh sure, NOW you tell me. <laughing> (I saw this after I typed out my long-winded response...) For what it's worth, I have no problem at all with you looking at your statements tomorrow or whenever and revising them. But I would ask that you revise them in response to my post, just so I don't lose the train of thought (in other words, if you revise them in your original post, I may never see the revisions). While I don't personally drink, I have enough friends that do that I completely understand your situation. <grin>

[Snorri1234]

I just typed a whole lot of words, but I'm afraid I'm too drunk to actually understand what it says. Way man I'm drunk. That kind of drunk you get when it all seems just okay but another beer makes you fall of stools and stumble all over stuff.

I am drunker than that now, so Woodruff be so kind as to wait before I review my own comments about stuff I'm not understanding at the moment. (Like, I don't even know what I said about it previously exactly.)

Oh sure, NOW you tell me. <laughing> For what it's worth, I have no problem at all with you looking at your statements tomorrow or whenever and revising them. But I would ask that you revise them in response to my post, just so I don't lose the train of thought (in other words, if you revise them in your original post, I may never see the revisions). While I don't personally drink, I have enough friends that do that I completely understand your situation. <grin>

Seriously though, sorry for that. I'm way too drunk and some girl is sort of telling me she wants me to come over but I have no way to actually get over there and it's all very confusing but none the less hilarious. So (and this goes to porkenbeans too who probably just replied to whatever I said) expect reasonable and thoughtfull responses tomorrow.

Hell, I am strating to wonder whether I should've responderd that last comment. Tomorrow will tell. I thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, wow guys my keyboard only noticess that you keep a key on for like 3 seconds or something.

[Snorri1234]

If anything won't make sense I'll let you know. After reading your post again I'm not sure I actualyl responded to it.

[Woodruff]

I thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, wow guys my keyboard only noticess that you keep a key on for like 3 seconds or something.

This is the sort of statement that shows that you're really quite far gone. <laughing out loud>

[Snorri1234]

Well yes, that's why I said I wouldn't say much about whatever we're discussing at the moment. (militttary right?)

It's a good thing tomorrow I don't have to get up early.

[mpjh]

Wait, Colton is a figment?

[Woodruff]

Wait, Colton is a figment?

Any further thoughts on my alleged confliction?

[mpjh]

Ahh, it is my conflict.

[Neoteny]

I think this can be labeled as a snorriwin.

[Woodruff]

I think this can be labeled as a snorriwin.

Interesting...a "win" for defaulting?

[Snorri1234]

I think this can be labeled as a snorriwin.

Interesting...a "win" for defaulting?

Gonna come up with a response now. Bit much and am also currently discussing plans about moving. Just wait for my awesome reply.

[mpjh]

bated breath -- pause

[Snorri1234]

I did mention my 23 years spent in the U.S. military...which apparently, you seem to believe means I have been brainwashed.

Ah yes, but my point is that that "brainwashing" is confined to military-related stuff. So if we never talked about your job as a soldier I fail to see how I could've seen you as brainwashed.

I personally think that killing an actual terrorist is a very good thing.

I do too unless it can be prevented. Which is important because

Better them than an innocent civilian, as far as I'm concerned. I would honestly and truly hope that most logical, thinking and feeling human beings would agree that killing a terrorist is a good thing. I don't see how that relates to anyone being brainwashed...more like people enjoying seeing justice being done.

The thing is that I don't see how killing another human being makes us better than them. Yes I do think a terrorist should be shot if he is a threat, but I don't think he should be killed if he is detained.

But even ignoring that. What I brought was how the USA military talks about it's troops, and how that is holy shit fucking crazy. You can't ignore that they are adding a whole lot of extra "patriotism, love for your country, duty as citizen" rhetoric to their recruiting-shit.

I don't see that as brainwashing, I see that as advertising. Remember, they're trying to lure recruits into the military...you don't convince good people to join an organization by telling them that they're going to live in a hell-hole for six months of the year with nothing good to eat and get paid very little money. The military wants good people, so they've got to "sell" what they can, and that's "patriotism, love for your country, duty as a citizen". Give them a reason to be willing to accept the crap that goes with it. It's as simple as that. Do they over-sell it? Certainly...just like freaking McDonald's over-sells how great the Big Mac is.

That's just it though. The armies in Europe don't advertise in the same way. The US don't say : "join the military for a great job and help those people who are worse off in war-torn regions", they say "OK WE ARE THE BEST NATION EVER AND HELL YEAH LET'S TEACH THOSE GODDAMN TERRORISTS WHO IS BOSS!!!"
Theirs is a mission of making war, ours is a mission of making peace.

This may come as a surprise to you, but just because someone is in the military doesn't mean they lose all ability to think for themselves. And while I embarrassingly heard Bush's statements, I never once heard that from any military person.

Yeah wow tell me more fascinating stories. It doesn't matter whether everyone loses their ability to think for themselves. In fact, to dismiss what I say with that is ridiculous because that's not how this stuff works. When you get into the army you are taught how to kill without problem, that is already brainwashing since normal people have problems with just killing people they don't know. While that's perfectly acceptable, it also means that "thinking for themselves" is not really a criteria you can judge brainwashing on.

The terrorists hated your freedoms and wanted to rape your wife and bomb american cities and whatnot. Every war ever has indoctrination, to say it doesn't is just fucking ignorant. The allied in WW1 spread papers about how the enemy was evil and stuff, and it hasn't changed.

So then how does that explain why the "U.S. military's brainwashing it's troops fucking scares you". How does that mean "It is far more severe than that of other countries" if every military does it and it hasn't changed?

Every military does it, but not in the same degree. I already said that but I don't mind repeating it. This shit is not an on/off button, it's measured in degrees if measured at all. And it's not just kept within the military, it is spread outside to convince people to support whatever the troops are doing.

Incorrect, and not even close...the U.S. military has NEVER in my experience been taught to "hate the enemy".

They just convinced themselves?

Certain INDIVIDUALS in the U.S. military have TAKEN IT UPON THEMSELVES to hate the enemy.

No, while of course their own input isn't to be neglected they were very much told by others to hate the enemy. These are not the actions of a few bad apples, these are the actions of people who have been indoctrinated and then set loose. The mere fact that the administration tried to paint it as ok or covered it up speaks volumes.

The thing is that there really isn't such a thing as "bad apples". Almost everyone can do the same things if they're told it's ok and face no repurcussions. The job of the force (and prison-guards and whatnot) is to make sure it doesn't happen. If they don't, and actually say it's a good idea, it will happen.

And again, how often have the Dutch or Brits been put into positions where they might be ABLE to torture anyone? The fact is that the vast majority of these situtations are put under the U.S. military's control, because we're the ones with the vast majority of forces involved.

They have been put in that position plenty of times. Hell, they're in that position now.

Other than the rare instances when an illegal order is given (for instance, to torture someone)

See. this is why I didn't want this conversation to happen. Torture was totally ok with the administration. Waterboarding is torture and to say it isn't is just fucked up.

You're right, it was...and I agree with you completely that it's just fucked up. It's inexcusable. And yet, I...someone who has apparently been severely brainwashed by the U.S. military for 23 years...I actually agree with you about that. How can that possibly be?

Perhaps you're one of those who haven't been influenced that much? Brainwashing does not give a 100% return. In fact, it gives a lousy return over a set limit. But how much is subject to debate. I mean, 80% of the people would torture a puppy to death if a guy in a labcoat told them it's okay. That's not even subtle. It doesn't give time for people to think about what they're doing, but it does prove that people will do the craziest shit when under any kind of authority. It's abhorrent and fucked up but also true.

And PLEASE don't blame the military for things that Bush did. That's all on his dumb ass.

Who says I'm blaming the mlitary? That is, who says I'm blaming the soldiers who did the stuff? I know it's the military as an institution and the government as an institution. But that's just it, nobody said no to the president. Objecting isn't encouraged.

You are completely wrong. Firefighters train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to run into burning buildings?). Policemen train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to chase a suspect through a deserted building?). Emergency room workers train in this way (or perhaps you believe people prefer to stick their hand into a bubbling chest in a desperate attempt to stop bleeding or re-start a heart?). Ambulance personnel train in this way (see previous example). You couldn't be further from the truth in this regard.

What? Did I ever say this shit didn't happen elsewhere? I fucking know how this stuff works. I had qualms about cutting up a dead dude before we used a fucking saw to slice trough his ribcage. But it's still brainwashing. People tell you to do it and you just get over whatever flimsy moral objections you have.

However, saving people and killing people are different things. It's far easier to get someone to run into a burning building than to have him shoot a guy. It requires more conditioning. A fresh new recruit has more qualms about killing than someone who has seen a buch of action. It is not something people do without some form of indoctrination.

So you ADMIT that they're not that way BECAUSE of the military, then...they're not that way because of any brainwashing, they were already sociopaths. And I tend to think you're wrong about them being kicked out of the Dutch military, as well, though I admittedly don't have any personal knowledge to draw that conclusion...perhaps you have some examples of it you can show me?

I do not admit any of it. They are being kept in the military despite being prone to a certain mindset. Not every new recruit has what Jeeves would call "the psychology of the indvidual" but the US military does not try to get those out, it instead gets them more in. The particular things that make them do stuff are actually being encouraged. Because of the military they grow and do things that are wrong. The military isn't the cause, it's the spark that set it off.

[GabonX]

In all seriousness Snorri, nobody wants to read your boring line by line responses. You're not winning by spewing more content than people have the time or interest to read. Writing clearly and succinctly is much more respectable as it takes more skill and people may actually take the time to look at what you have to say.

I know you don't have anything better to do a lot of the time, but just because other people do doesn't make you the winner. Writing like ^that is an auto fail as it demonstrates a lack of both effort and quality..

[Snorri1234]

In all seriousness Snorri, nobody wants to read your boring line by line response. You're not winning by spewing more content than people have the time or interest to read. Writing clearly and succinctly is much more respectable as it takes more skill and people may actually take the time to look at what you have to say.

I know you don't have anything better to do a lot of the time, but just because other people do doesn't make you the winner. Writing like ^that is an auto fail as it demonstrates a lack of both effort and quality..

Wow Gabon maybe you should respond with something anyone cares about!

[Snorri1234]

Now go on and call Woodruff for also being an auto-fail. Just because you wouldn't recognize an interesting conversation if it hit you in the back of the head doesn't mean no one else does.

[GabonX]

I'll cut him some slack cause he just got back. Also, you're attacking one of the corner stones of his identity. He probably feels compelled to respond.

I know the feeling, it sucks. Trolling service members doesn't make you the winner.