WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[cairnswk]

....
The rubble in the Gor. Fields better be turned in impassable woods again (obviously)....

But there was no woods there that have been substituted.
The trees were removed from the bottom edge of German HQ II and replaced with Fence.
The rubble in Gorosische Fields is new.
So i'm not quite on the same wavelength there with you

[jefjef]

Looks like a challenging map. Nice work!

Doesn't look like German HQ can be bombarded. Can it?

A little more rubble impassables would be good. Don't want it too open IMO. (A couple more choke points would be good)

suggestions?

Well. Instead of being able to sweep entire river front divide in like 3 or 4 diff places.

Like at Goemark at 72nd & 76th -OR- 295th & 72nd -OR- Goemark & German HQ.

R 13th Div A at City road

P Platt & Red Square

Refinery & Chemical plant

Sandwich BTF at Krasny & DTF borders

Memeyev and Meat combine -OR- Meat Combine and Barrikady west

Station 1 at City & Red square (at city anyway)

I would for sure try to channel assault lanes to & from the river and not allow too much side to side unobstructed routes. This will also make river crossings oh so more important. See how that makes it flow.

Note: Can german HQ be assaulted from the air?

How about all arty attackable from the air? Arty was often primary targets.

[cairnswk]

hey, haven't looked at this map or the foundry for a while, but it looks really good, although i find the legend in the small version to be a bit blurry. then again, it may be the fact that i'm tired...

Yeh, its pretty congested in there....maybe use the large version

But i will tinker with that bg color to see what i can do for you
what i'd prefer to do is swap 62nd Yeremenko with 62nd 1st division,
and give the access to 62nd Chulkov.
That way you'd need to part of each continent to control the airfield access.

1
city bg colour
all your attention for me is too much
but thanks for considering my remarks
2
Russian airfield
in fact your proposition is better

Done

3
plane icon
maybe it would look better with the wheel under it

I did have wheel but it made the planes look horrible.

indeed more rubble blockades.
( i have no thought about where exactly).
The rubble in the Gor. Fields better be turned in impassable woods again (obviously).
The rubble icon can easily be made brighter..It helps to quicker understand the map in an overview and concrete/cement IS light grey (like your gate poles around the hospital).
"Pavlov's House " is too large and thus too far away from the actual zone.
Just make it "pavlov" and get it closer to its zone and further away from the Volga Island (Which you can downsize to "Volga Isle" ).

Rubble attended to i think.
I don't want to change the name from Pavlov's House as that was one of the iconic bits of Stalingrad, but have moved it closed and change the Island to Isle

...
suggestions?

Well. Instead of being able to sweep entire river front divide in like 3 or 4 diff places.
Like at Goemark at 72nd & 76th -OR- 295th & 72nd -OR- Goemark & German HQ.
R 13th Div A at City road
P Platt & Red Square
Refinery & Chemical plant
Sandwich BTF at Krasny & DTF borders
Memeyev and Meat combine -OR- Meat Combine and Barrikady west
Station 1 at City & Red square (at city anyway)
I would for sure try to channel assault lanes to & from the river and not allow too much side to side unobstructed routes. This will also make river crossings oh so more important. See how that makes it flow.

I took up a lot of those suggestions. Thanks. See how they are recevied.

Note: Can german HQ be assaulted from the air?
How about all arty attackable from the air? Arty was often primary targets.

No HQ can now be attacked from the air.
Artillery? Let's see what others, if they have anything to say about this as it will involve more bomb icons in the map. Do we need to more clutter?
I'm beginning to think there is now too much.

Version 24

Click image to enlarge.

[jefjef]

Looks good. Maybe some rubble between Goemark station & German HQ. ( Hq are normal a protected area and it is a bonus border.)

If you show in legend planes can attack all arty than you won't have to use bomb icons on them.

You put a lot of work in this. Nice job. Be proud of it m8. I've done put my 2 cents in. 5 stars to ya!

[cairnswk]

Looks good. Maybe some rubble between Goemark station & German HQ. ( Hq are normal a protected area and it is a bonus border.)

If you show in legend planes can attack all arty than you won't have to use bomb icons on them.

You put a lot of work in this. Nice job. Be proud of it m8. I've done put my 2 cents in. 5 stars to ya!

Done and Done. Thanks jefjef.
Please F to see changes in V24 above.

[jefjef]

Nice.

But I can't shut up at times.. The middle area just seems too open.

What do ya think about rubble between 1077 AA and City road - OR - R 13th div A and 1077 AA.

Between Gorodische Fields East and R 13th Div B

I think that will break it up a little & define bonus areas a smidgen more.

Thank you for your work & allowing us gamers to have input.

P.S. Chulkov arty still has a bomb icon. I almost would remove the station # 2 icon. That little bonus has more pressure on it than the one on the other end. And maybe make the meat combine a bombard point.

It does look like all bonus areas have atleast one bombard tert. But the largest only have one. (the arty tert)

I like it Cairnswk. Along the river will be a battlefield & hard to hold for sure just as it really was.

[cairnswk]

Nice.
But I can't shut up at times.. The middle area just seems too open.
What do ya think about rubble between 1077 AA and City road - OR - R 13th div A and 1077 AA.
Between Gorodische Fields East and R 13th Div B
I think that will break it up a little & define bonus areas a smidgen more.
Thank you for your work & allowing us gamers to have input.
P.S. Chulkov arty still has a bomb icon. I almost would remove the station # 2 icon. That little bonus has more pressure on it than the one on the other end. And maybe make the meat combine a bombard point.
It does look like all bonus areas have atleast one bombard tert. But the largest only have one. (the arty tert)
I like it Cairnswk. Along the river will be a battlefield & hard to hold for sure just as it really was.

jefjef, like the suggestions, but please no more less we become overcrowded to buggery.
I know it was horrible battle but it's look ing way too busy now.
Changes, still on V24...
1. added your rubble suggestions
2. added some more bombs to four (i think) terts that have large bonuses on the german side
3. changed the colours of the tert name texts, so they don't overcome the map but more blend into the background.
This way we may be able to see the army numbers rather than find them in a mess of colour (which it probably already looks like)

Click image to enlarge.

[saraith]

Hi, guys...

I started in on the xml, I got the snipers done so far.

http://allenar.freehostia.com/CC/Stalingrad_V0.xml

[lt_oddball]

heyyya thanks Cairnswk for naming me on the map

Great map and in the mean time you have done an excellent job with picking up the good suggestions and argumenting the "unsuccesful" suggestions..
Big respect for ya!


Ok seriously now:

1) 62nd Chulkov has direct access to the VVs airfield.... kinda like German HQ1 to its Pitomnik luftwaffe base...
So let's merit Chulkov with a soviet HQ flag ?

2) Rubble between Gor. Fields and 76th div rear is in rural area..that's why I'd like to see the trees there..

3) R. 13th gurads Rifle div B has a long open border with AA2 , city road, R13th Guards Rifle Div A...maybe shut off (rubble) the border with AA2 too ..that is..the north to south advance (germans)..the south to north attack should be possible (one way attack..arrow ) ?

4) Come to think of it:
How are the attack lines arranged with territories that have two circles in them (like 1077A and AA2 and AA3).
In order to get from one side through this area to the other sides ?
Let's take 1077A:
From Gorodische Fields I want to attack Mamayev Hill A.. do I have to attack 1077A R1 first and then R2 ?
and From Gorodische Fields I want to attack R13th GR Div A . do I have to attack ONLY R1 ..or still have to go through R2 ?
and From Gorodische Fields I want to attack Barrikady Woods- arty . do I have to attack R1 then R2 then barr. Woods Inf and then the Barr. Woods Arty ?


5) Why is Orlovka's Woods so stretched along the river towards Derzhinsky North ?
You would do this to model a fast panzer attack from Orlovka woods... but there the germans weren't that fast it seems:

http://www.historyofwar.org/Maps/maps_stalingrad4.html

So better cut that "finger " off and let AA3 be inbetween..


another nice map:
http://www.historyofwar.org/Maps/maps_stalingrad5.html


Cheers

[jefjef]

LOVE IT!

Strategic thing:

Think it may be better to have bomb icon on Grain silo instead of station 2. (grain silo being 1 of two points to cross river towards russian side) The other jump off point is bombable and makes sense.

Two of the sniper nests have 3 target terts & two of em have just two. It's probably been discussed but this is a long thread. As much of a front that Rus 13th A & B has I'm not sure they need the extra weight of sniper attack.

The All city bonus value is 9. With all the possible attacks against those terts & the battle being directed & centered there how about ya up it to 12. It would be almost impossible to hold anyway until the very end of the game and that would encourage even more intense combat IMO.

Great work.

[cairnswk]

....
1) 62nd Chulkov has direct access to the VVs airfield.... kinda like German HQ1 to its Pitomnik luftwaffe base...
So let's merit Chulkov with a soviet HQ flag ?

Done.

2) Rubble between Gor. Fields and 76th div rear is in rural area..that's why I'd like to see the trees there..

Done.

3) R. 13th gurads Rifle div B has a long open border with AA2 , city road, R13th Guards Rifle Div A...maybe shut off (rubble) the border with AA2 too ..that is..the north to south advance (germans)..the south to north attack should be possible (one way attack..arrow ) ?

Mmmm. I'm reluctant to create another blockage to entry to the city. i would prefer to see it left open so that battling can take place.

4) Come to think of it:
How are the attack lines arranged with territories that have two circles in them (like 1077A and AA2 and AA3).
In order to get from one side through this area to the other sides ?
Let's take 1077A:
From Gorodische Fields I want to attack Mamayev Hill A.. do I have to attack 1077A R1 first and then R2 ?
and From Gorodische Fields I want to attack R13th GR Div A . do I have to attack ONLY R1 ..or still have to go through R2 ?
and From Gorodische Fields I want to attack Barrikady Woods- arty . do I have to attack R1 then R2 then barr. Woods Inf and then the Barr. Woods Arty ?

The double army terts were going to make up some bonus of some sort and can still do so.
Perhaps +1 for each two army terts apart from Mamayev Hill.
As for assaults, every single has normal border with next/adjacent army inside and out of the terts. So there is no special assautls rules there.

5) Why is Orlovka's Woods so stretched along the river towards Derzhinsky North ?
You would do this to model a fast panzer attack from Orlovka woods... but there the germans weren't that fast it seems:
So better cut that "finger " off and let AA3 be inbetween..
Cheers

Yes i saw the maps previously, thanks.
Done.

..
Think it may be better to have bomb icon on Grain silo instead of station 2. (grain silo being 1 of two points to cross river towards russian side) The other jump off point is bombable and makes sense.

Done.

Two of the sniper nests have 3 target terts & two of em have just two. It's probably been discussed but this is a long thread. As much of a front that Rus 13th A & B has I'm not sure they need the extra weight of sniper attack.

I would like to leave those as are. I know it puts extra weight on that area, but there was probably a lot more battle down in the city area that up north. so i think 3 snipers are appropriate.

The All city bonus value is 9. With all the possible attacks against those terts & the battle being directed & centered there how about ya up it to 12. It would be almost impossible to hold anyway until the very end of the game and that would encourage even more intense combat IMO.

Done, but all bonuses have to be re-calculated again anyhow.

New version upload later.
I think saraith has something to offer re the artillery fire that might be important, so will wait until after that.

[saraith]

New version upload later.
I think saraith has something to offer re the artillery fire that might be important, so will wait until after that.

Here's my opinion... I like the look of the map very much.

I think that my only suggestion would be that the artillery should not be able to bombard territories that are adjacent to them. I was an artillerist in my militia days long ago, and I know first hand that that is just simply not how artillery works.

We used to do Live Fire demos on close targets (1000m or so) and even though a high explosive artillery shell has a 30m kill radius, many times the shell would impact without detonating, as the fuse didn't have time to spin up active before hitting the ground.

[jefjef]

New version upload later.
I think saraith has something to offer re the artillery fire that might be important, so will wait until after that.

Here's my opinion... I like the look of the map very much.

I think that my only suggestion would be that the artillery should not be able to bombard territories that are adjacent to them. I was an artillerist in my militia days long ago, and I know first hand that that is just simply not how artillery works.

We used to do Live Fire demos on close targets (1000m or so) and even though a high explosive artillery shell has a 30m kill radius, many times the shell would impact without detonating, as the fuse didn't have time to spin up active before hitting the ground.

Valid point. But many WWII arty units also employed a platoon or company of heavy mortars. But for game play I like the non - adjacent arty attacks also.. It's all ranged stuff in Waterloo. BUT arty was used direct fire vs armor also at times.

[Teflon Kris]

The doods and tanks assaulting next-door is what players would expect anyway - if you need space you might wish to take that bit out? Unless, these are the only assaults possible (e.g. tanks cant assault next-door artillery)? But then again, if that was the case then the doods wouldn't be able to assault the river. Hmmm. Help!

Mmmmm. I need help, don't know about you.

Sorry to be anally-retentive.

Have you got an answer on this question of what can assault what?

[jefjef]

The doods and tanks assaulting next-door is what players would expect anyway - if you need space you might wish to take that bit out? Unless, these are the only assaults possible (e.g. tanks cant assault next-door artillery)? But then again, if that was the case then the doods wouldn't be able to assault the river. Hmmm. Help!

Mmmmm. I need help, don't know about you.

Sorry to be anally-retentive.

Have you got an answer on this question of what can assault what?

Upper right of map is the legend. Very understandable.

NOTE: cairnswk why is the German HQ II bombardable now? If it's just to add another target in that bonus make the one next to it bombardable.

[The Neon Peon]

In the legend at the top, you say that snipers can bombard bordering soldiers, from what I understand from their explanation you have at the bottom of the map, they can bombard the soldiers who are sharing the same color as them. I would recommend removing the snipers from the top legend since they are already explained at the bottom.

Might I re-suggest that they be given a 1 troop autodeploy?

[cairnswk]

...
I think that my only suggestion would be that the artillery should not be able to bombard territories that are adjacent to them. I was an artillerist in my militia days long ago, and I know first hand that that is just simply not how artillery works.
We used to do Live Fire demos on close targets (1000m or so) and even though a high explosive artillery shell has a 30m kill radius, many times the shell would impact without detonating, as the fuse didn't have time to spin up active before hitting the ground.

...
Valid point. But many WWII arty units also employed a platoon or company of heavy mortars. But for game play I like the non - adjacent arty attacks also.. It's all ranged stuff in Waterloo. BUT arty was used direct fire vs armor also at times.

So what is it to be?
Question: Artillery can attack next door or not?

The doods and tanks assaulting next-door is what players would expect anyway - if you need space you might wish to take that bit out? Unless, these are the only assaults possible (e.g. tanks cant assault next-door artillery)? But then again, if that was the case then the doods wouldn't be able to assault the river. Hmmm. Help!

Mmmmm. I need help, don't know about you.

Sorry to be anally-retentive.
Have you got an answer on this question of what can assault what?

Upper right of map is the legend. Very understandable.
NOTE: cairnswk why is the German HQ II bombardable now? If it's just to add another target in that bonus make the one next to it bombardable.

Question: Dj Telfon. Are you sorted on this one by reading the legend?

In the legend at the top, you say that snipers can bombard bordering soldiers, from what I understand from their explanation you have at the bottom of the map, they can bombard the soldiers who are sharing the same color as them. I would recommend removing the snipers from the top legend since they are already explained at the bottom.

Done, yes that is a double-up.

Might I re-suggest that they be given a 1 troop autodeploy?

Question: Do we need 1 troop autodeply on the snipers?

Question: Do you want +1 bonus for holding territories that have two armies on them (this would include Mameyev Hill), and
should that be an autodeploy +1 ?

[jefjef]

From studying your map I would not commit many forces to the sniper positions. Most of the deploy would be elsewhere. But if you had sniper auto deploy than it would for sure be utilized. If you go that route I would for sure have all snipers start as a neutral.

So I would vote YES on sniper auto deploy. If they started as neutral terts.

Artillery I would go with non- adjacent attacks.

[porkenbeans]

Thank you for inviting me to participate in this poll. However, I am not going to cast my vote as I do not think that I should pretend to be any kind of authority on game play. Basically I am here for the graphics end. There are a few here that seem to know the ends and outs of game play, so I will leave it up to them.

[ender516]

I have answered all the issues in the poll except the artillery issue. I am a little confused by the choices in that regard. Currently, according to the legend, artillery can bombard any other artillery or any of the kneeling figures. Are we trying to decide if, instead of bombarding adjacent locations, the artillery can attack them (and if successful, reinforce into them)? Or are we suggesting that the artillery can neither bombard nor attack adjacent locations?

Just to comment on the other issues: I vote yes to sniper auto-deploy, mainly to attract players to use this special bit of gameplay (seems silly to put a feature in that no one would use, which seems to be the opinion of a lot of the other commentators). I think the two army territories should have a bonus, just to give players a little something extra to consider. But I think that they should be auto-deploy, so that they don't add too much to the pool of reinforcements that the player can throw in any direction. You might make an exception for Mameyev Hill, since you have already singled it out as something special.

[whitestazn88]

i voted

[saraith]

I have answered all the issues in the poll except the artillery issue. I am a little confused by the choices in that regard. Currently, according to the legend, artillery can bombard any other artillery or any of the kneeling figures. Are we trying to decide if, instead of bombarding adjacent locations, the artillery can attack them (and if successful, reinforce into them)? Or are we suggesting that the artillery can neither bombard nor attack adjacent locations?

Just to comment on the other issues: I vote yes to sniper auto-deploy, mainly to attract players to use this special bit of gameplay (seems silly to put a feature in that no one would use, which seems to be the opinion of a lot of the other commentators). I think the two army territories should have a bonus, just to give players a little something extra to consider. But I think that they should be auto-deploy, so that they don't add too much to the pool of reinforcements that the player can throw in any direction. You might make an exception for Mameyev Hill, since you have already singled it out as something special.

My suggestion would be that Artillery cannot bombard nor attack any tert that is adjacent to them, with the Following exceptions:

• Attack (only) Infantry units that are in the same location, i.e.: AA1-3
• Bombard (only) adjacent armor terts

jefjef made a good point about Artillery using direct fire against armor, and it was pretty effective.

If we make a real life example, it would be easy for an Arty battery to grab their rifles and go and pop a cap in an infantry unit close by, but not so easy to shoot them with a Howitzer. I think that was the point of having Infantry and Artillery in the same place, but maybe I'm incorrect on that part With the shells of the day (HEPD - High Explosive, Point Detonating) you could pretty much throw a 105mm shell at a tank and it would explode, as long as you broke open the fuse casing. But if your target isn't something solid, a shell needs about 3 seconds of centrifugal force to activate the fuse, then it detonates when inertia shoots the fuse forward on impact.

[jefjef]

My suggestion would be that Artillery cannot bombard nor attack any tert that is adjacent to them, with the Following exceptions:

• Attack (only) Infantry units that are in the same location, i.e.: AA1-3
• Bombard (only) adjacent armor terts

jefjef made a good point about Artillery using direct fire against armor, and it was pretty effective.

If we make a real life example, it would be easy for an Arty battery to grab their rifles and go and pop a cap in an infantry unit close by, but not so easy to shoot them with a Howitzer. I think that was the point of having Infantry and Artillery in the same place, but maybe I'm incorrect on that part With the shells of the day (HEPD - High Explosive, Point Detonating) you could pretty much throw a 105mm shell at a tank and it would explode, as long as you broke open the fuse casing. But if your target isn't something solid, a shell needs about 3 seconds of centrifugal force to activate the fuse, then it detonates when inertia shoots the fuse forward on impact.

Well if real life would be applied every tert would be attackable from the air.

WWII arty units were not as well equipped and thus not as effective as basic infantry units. Thats why infantry was used to protect arty.

Yes arty was used as direct fire anti tank as the need arose. Yes armor was quite capable of suppressing and eliminating arty. That was one of it's "blitzkrieg" roles. Get in the rear to eliminate arty and disrupt reinforcement and communication/command.

IMO for game play though I think non adjacent arty attacks would be best.

Infantry only assault against arty would be best. (capture vs destroyed by armor).

Infantry only bombardment by artillery is best. Even though it was effective against armor it was by far more devastating to infantry.


QUESTION: Are the AA units capable of assaulting the planes? May want to consider it. (I assume the AA usage is for anti aircraft units)

When plane vs plane attack is it a bombard (neuralize) or a conquer? I would vote for neutralize.

[lt_oddball]

Suggestion:

In all cases where arty is combined with inf in a double territ, let the arty be shielded by the inf. when being attacked by the neighbouring inf and tanks.
So that the only inf. capable of attacking arty. is the inf. in the double territ. itself.

Perhaps the same concept should be implemented for the other double troops in one terr: One inf is the prime defense against first attacks (e.g. Mamayev A) and the other can only be attacked from the first (Mamyev A attacks Mamayev B and vice versa...Mamyev B can be considered the top of the hill where mamayev A is the foot of the hill).


On the russian side there are some arty in a single terr. The ones on the left (64th art & yerem art) are ok as it is,..the one on the right (chulkov) is a bit exposed on the river side from R10... perhaps swap position with Chulkov guards ..?

[cairnswk]

Before i answer anything above....i did this for you to show the intensity of the fighting (and this is just infantry, armour and
artillrey) on the west bank city side. There are no snipers indicted here.
To be honest, i think this is just about as intense as CC would want the fighting and probably very indicative of what went on!