Clan League: Season 2 (2009-2010) - Info, Discussion, Q&A

[Bruceswar]

What if someone makes a quads no spoils random and it comes out to a map that will go stale or take forever...

would be interesting to see a stalemate in a quad .... i can´t imagine this can happen ... any game number where you believe to see a stalemate in a quad?

Edit: I see i´m not the first who is wondering about stalemates in quads^^

When I say stale I do not mean 100+ rounds stale, but more so a quads can go 40 to 50 rounds. Not likely but can happen. I guess we will just have to wait it out.

Good Luck to all!

[Bruceswar]

its very unlikely any of the quads will ever go 20+ rounds, one or two bad apples might cause a bit of delay though.

as far as random maps go, it certainly is a headache thats for sure.

I also agree here. I like to know where to have my clan mates fit it. Some people do not like certain maps or play better on others. I still think clans should be able to pick enough maps to take random away.

[nagerous]

What if someone makes a quads no spoils random and it comes out to a map that will go stale or take forever...

would be interesting to see a stalemate in a quad .... i can´t imagine this can happen ... any game number where you believe to see a stalemate in a quad?

Edit: I see i´m not the first who is wondering about stalemates in quads^^

When I say stale I do not mean 100+ rounds stale, but more so a quads can go 40 to 50 rounds. Not likely but can happen. I guess we will just have to wait it out.

Good Luck to all!

Only on a map like conquer man in fog and even then it is rare, I don't think I've ever had a quads game over 10 rounds.

[Chariot of Fire]

Actually nage 7.5% of your quads have gone beyond 10 rounds. But yeah, for the most part 6-10 rounds is the norm for any quad game. NS/Adjacent/Fog settings would create the slowest games, and on a big map (Conquerman/Actium/2.1/WW2 Europe) then 20+ rounds becomes far more likely.

[Blitzaholic]

Actually nage 7.5% of your quads have gone beyond 10 rounds. But yeah, for the most part 6-10 rounds is the norm for any quad game. NS/Adjacent/Fog settings would create the slowest games, and on a big map (Conquerman/Actium/2.1/WW2 Europe) then 20+ rounds becomes far more likely.

agreed

[jpcloet]

A quick note to say that Sky Force has decided to not continue as in their current state and have lost most of their members and the 2 founders virtually retired from CC.

After discussing several options, Marval and I have decided that Nemesis and TOFU will play a pre-chosen 11 doubles (using at least 10 players) in a play in battle for entrance to Div1B. This will mean some backtracking in the schedule for a few clans later in the season.

[Blitzaholic]

A quick note to say that Sky Force has decided to not continue as in their current state and have lost most of their members and the 2 founders virtually retired from CC.

After discussing several options, Marval and I have decided that Nemesis and TOFU will play a pre-chosen 11 doubles (using at least 10 players) in a play in battle for entrance to Div1B. This will mean some backtracking in the schedule for a few clans later in the season.

hmmmm


what do those 2 clans think about that?

[danryan]

A quick note to say that Sky Force has decided to not continue as in their current state and have lost most of their members and the 2 founders virtually retired from CC.

After discussing several options, Marval and I have decided that Nemesis and TOFU will play a pre-chosen 11 doubles (using at least 10 players) in a play in battle for entrance to Div1B. This will mean some backtracking in the schedule for a few clans later in the season.

Not to argue the merits of those two clans, but how did you pick them? DLPP certainly could make an argument that they belong in D1. So could others in the current Div 2.

[freakns]

A quick note to say that Sky Force has decided to not continue as in their current state and have lost most of their members and the 2 founders virtually retired from CC.

After discussing several options, Marval and I have decided that Nemesis and TOFU will play a pre-chosen 11 doubles (using at least 10 players) in a play in battle for entrance to Div1B. This will mean some backtracking in the schedule for a few clans later in the season.

Not to argue the merits of those two clans, but how did you pick them? DLPP certainly could make an argument that they belong in D1. So could others in the current Div 2.

that was also my question. and i dont want to say anything else until whole Nemesis came to mutual response for this

[Bruceswar]

I think all of D2 should be lucky that TOFU might get bumped up. If they do, then D2 is wide open for anybody to win.

[Bruceswar]

also where will the standings be?

[Chariot of Fire]

I think all of D2 should be lucky that TOFU might get bumped up. If they do, then D2 is wide open for anybody to win.

Thanks Bruce for the vote of confidence

I must be honest though - and I know I speak for all the guys in TOFU here as we've been debating it - that whilst we're obviously happy to be considered for a 'play-off' to move immediately into the upper division, we're also acutely aware of being labelled with favouritism over and above the other clans in Div.2. I know that Nemesis - a clan I rate very highly indeed - wrote at length imploring the organisers to move them into Div.1 based on their performances in recent challenges. TOFU is relatively new and so as a clan we can't speak of much history - all we have to date is a decent win over the highly-ranked Imperial Dragoons in a 40 game challenge. We do however comprise members who have all played at the highest level - six of us having recently left LoW and who were all very active in the last CLA, finishing with some very impressive individual records and coming 2nd overall. The average rank in the clan is Colonel, so I'm sure there's going to be some disparity when facing other Div.2 clans. Thus I imagine the organisers weighed these things up when they came to their decision and felt either TOFU or Nemesis were the clans most suited to the demands of Div.1 levels of play (Div.2's Death by Comity just lost 35-5 to THOTA!).

So....in the interests of keeping the CLA balanced, and trying to give the organisers as little grief as possible by complying with their requests, we are prepared to go along with the play-off if that is what they want. However, if other clans do not feel this is a fair decision and it will cause a rift then we at TOFU will happily stand down and play in Div.2 as originally scheduled. We'd simply like to see an arrangement that's agreeable to all parties who make up this excellent competition. Thanks.

CoF

[Ace Rimmer]

JP,

Any chance you can give us an estimate on where TOFU would stand relative to Nemesis and the rest of the clans already seeded in Div1 based on our win over ID? I don't know if CoF's statement plays into it at all (that we have 6 ex-LoW guys that played hard in season 1) or not. I'd like to see some justification to show everyone why TOFU should be considered.

Jake

[soundman]

A quick note to say that Sky Force has decided to not continue as in their current state and have lost most of their members and the 2 founders virtually retired from CC.

After discussing several options, Marval and I have decided that Nemesis and TOFU will play a pre-chosen 11 doubles (using at least 10 players) in a play in battle for entrance to Div1B. This will mean some backtracking in the schedule for a few clans later in the season.

Why don't you just move that one clan in Div2, that played in the first season, into Div1? We'd put up a good fight! And it seems more fair.

[jpcloet]

In context, Nemesis was the highest rated clan prior to the season starting, but missed out since other clans either had better results or had participated in Season 1. TOFU did not have any results yet and fell victim to timing. Since we have already started the season, we looked at several options.

Since the season has started, TOFU's win is a recent win over the highest rated clan on the ladder in comparison and under the next possible ladder, would put them as an A rating in line with Nemesis. In context, many of TOFU's players played in Season 1 under the LOW banner. A new clan would not be allowed to join without results and this is consistent in that a Fistful of Sixes is essentially Sky Force now, but they were not given the option to replace SF, and FOS has decided not to join Div2 to enter the vacant spot upon the soon promotion of the play in winner.

Looking at Nemesis wins over Mythology and Imperial Britain vs TOFU win over ID, one could argue either way. While personally, I think TOFU is stronger, the battle is the fairest option. Both clans have said and shown they are 1st class clans, and a quick battle should prove one way or the other.

We could have left the Div1 spot blank, but the demand to be in Div1 has always been there.

Either way, this makes the managing much more difficult and the pool will need to be updated since one will be promoted, and most did not enter the late clan addition to Div2.

As for DLPP, they beat up on a very low rated clan, so there current results are not strong enough to put them in D1. Wins against upper class clans will always be taken more seriously than wins against new clans and unknowns.

As for TLW, who almost fast-posted me, your 0-6 ladder record on the current ladder does not indicate that you should be in Division 1.

[HardAttack]

Lokking at nemesis wins, not only imperial britain and mythology but also L4D.

[maasman]

Tofu is a really new clan, and that makes me mad that they have such a great opportunity, but I also realize that they have many powerful and experienced members. For the sake of swallowing pride, I think that it would be better just to take the challenge and prove to everyone where we should stand.
Just my 2 cents.

[jpcloet]

For those that asked, TOFU's preliminary rating would be A+++ under the experimental ladder.

[HardAttack]

First of all, i have to state that, TOFU led by CoF is a clan who has got my very full respect, friendship and more.
Most of members are those i know to a degree therefore i kindly ask the below i am writing not to be missunderstood.
I know their power, i know how strong clan TOFU is.

I also would like to state that, NEMESIS has no fear, doubt, or worry to be faced with any clan. Our only concern is dividing games into pieces to take at once because we are tiny but fkin tough guys together.

Anyway, we believe on rules, we believe on the neccesity of existence of rules and ways to follow. The first dissapointment we had (or say shock) took place 3 weeks ago when the first divisions named. We took place in div 2 but we did not believe it was right desicion and it is still same in our minds. However, as a clan, we trust organizers and we do not like flaming things etc etc. With our sorrow and dissapointment, we accepted to give it a go.

Some notes from previous discussions took place 3 weeks ago or so as to be reminders for those who do not remember the picture in clear.

1. We were told to be unlucky due to our coming the very first candidate to be placed in div1 if and only if there was 1 more spot in div1.
2. L4D, the clan we are surplassing now, (after catching 20 number we slowed down and our eyes now on a lot more other stuff), took place in Div1, it was the time when the score of Nemesis vs L4D was around 14-5 which you all shall give the right it to be an almost over clan war. I am saying this cos, a clan challenge TOFU has now is not officially over. Technically, TOFU has no completed challenge.
3. BpB took place in Div1 because of their clan challenge against some top ten clan (When you look at the RPI rank, L4D is inside top 11 clan right now.) Nemesis was told that BpB having a close figth against I.A. however i wouldnt call a final score of 24-16 to be close fight.
4. Mytology, it was the very first chllenge of nemesis. Consider this, no new clans taking their 1st challenges against clans who are higher in ladder. We did, we won. Mytology had a position in somewhere in the middle of the ladder, we won 23-17. 23-17 s not shiney but our first clan challenge. And, we were not a part of another clan then formed as a new one under a new name. We all were new in clan stuff.
5. Still, i personally think that clan nemesis has got a right to be placed in div1 not less than BpB nor L4D.

As the above to be a reminder in short, now lets come back to today.
TOFU, a brilliant clan, full of enemies (i mean my very dear and sincere friends) and i have zero suspect they will do amazing and doing amazing currently too. But where are rules ? And what are the rules ?
We are 1+ years old now, completed 2 challenges and 3rd one is a completed one too with a current score of 22-11 over 40 games. Considering all above and the facts of TOFU's being 1-1,5 months of old, and having no official over clan war, then i am asking what rules are they we are following ? Or, why dont we have stabil rules ?

As nemesis, we are never dragging any challenge. Nothing can scare us. We all will draw our swords out to fight anytime. The objection here we have is the lack of rules, or its changebility in time etc.

For example, we were told that L4D took place in div1 due to RPI Ladder, but now TOFU is having a play off change against us due to some exprimental new clan ladder thing. In new clan ladder thingy, Nemesis has A++ where L4D has B(avg), then we need to be in div 1 but not L4D. If we are going to rely on RPI, then we should not play with TOFU but directly take place in emptied place of sky force.

Finally, some of my clan mates are about to protest these 11 games because of the mistakes they believe took place.
There is a discomfort in my clan among players. And now we are voting to participate in these 11 games or protest it and leave a free shot to TOFU to take place in div1. This is no bluff, neither a lie. This is fact.

My all best regards to all
H.A.

[freakns]

first of all, let me just say this isnt about TOFU and i have great respect for their players, this is about running the clan league.

when initially planed, Nemesis was sent to DIV 2 based on some rather strange clan ranking. we agree with it as those were the rules, and the ones from my clan can testify i was the one calming HA and others, telling them its the rules that should be followed... and now those rules changed and jp is talking about some experimental technique?! what kind of technique is that? the one that gives you right to do whatever you like and have some obscure explanation for it? well, those techniques were already used. they are widely know as stalinism, crystal night, war against terror, etc, etc... every single one of those things has some new invented policy that covers their act...
now, there is the other thing. jp is the one choosing the maps and setting to battle on. is this also some experimental technique? we are going to play only doubles on 11 already given maps, with two of them being classic and feudal war, two of the most specialized maps on this site that will give us no clarification how good someone is(i had a chance to see some non officers that plays feudal fantastically. and their overall rating? close to pathetic...)

i mean seriously, reason to give this chance to TOFU is some experimental technique?! am i the only one finding this funny?! they dont have not even one officially over challenge!!! NOT EVEN ONE! and im saying this with great respect for them as im sure theyll soon become one of top 5 if not top 3 clans on this site, its just that they are way too young as a clan to be given this honour.

to sum up, im STRONGLY AGAINST THIS! but i will do whatever my clan decide. even if that means playing in some league i dont approve at all(i will not approve this even if we play and win against TOFU)

[jpcloet]

1. You would have been put into Div1 had BPB not joined. I never indicated that we would use that to determine a mid-season promotion to my memory
2. Ironicaly, the Nemesis v Left4Dead is still going....
3. It was tied at the time and for most of the battle, IA pulled away at the very end
4. Every new clan faces someone higher on the ladder since in theory they start at the bottom
5. Deserves is subjective and some things did take into consideration some judgement. Mythology and DVL for that matter have a right to be in Div1 given there was not demotion rule in play in Season 1, although I'm sure some will say they don't deserve to be there.

I wouldn't take too long in deciding actions as neither clans have sent me their rosters and there is only about 24 hours until the deadline. For clans that want into Div1 so badly, neither has sent me a roster yet which is slightly disappointing given the maps being used are quite standard. There is still the possibility that neither clan will get promoted if that happens, and we'll deal with promotions and options at a future time and simply leave the spot blank.

[Stroop]

Ironicaly, the Nemesis v Left4Dead is still going....

Ongoing challenges were taken into consideration when you initially seeded the divisions. A bit of consistency would be nice.

[danryan]

I think all of D2 should be lucky that TOFU might get bumped up. If they do, then D2 is wide open for anybody to win.

Some of us were looking forward to the challenge of facing a top clan.

[freakns]

1. You would have been put into Div1 had BPB not joined. I never indicated that we would use that to determine a mid-season promotion to my memory
2. Ironicaly, the Nemesis v Left4Dead is still going....
3. It was tied at the time and for most of the battle, IA pulled away at the very end
4. Every new clan faces someone higher on the ladder since in theory they start at the bottom
5. Deserves is subjective and some things did take into consideration some judgement. Mythology and DVL for that matter have a right to be in Div1 given there was not demotion rule in play in Season 1, although I'm sure some will say they don't deserve to be there.

I wouldn't take too long in deciding actions as neither clans have sent me their rosters and there is only about 24 hours until the deadline. For clans that want into Div1 so badly, neither has sent me a roster yet which is slightly disappointing given the maps being used are quite standard. There is still the possibility that neither clan will get promoted if that happens, and we'll deal with promotions and options at a future time and simply leave the spot blank.

1. its not about Nemesis being in div 1. its about time and decision why is someone in div 1. its clear same rules are not applied first time and now, or im wrong?
2. and? we secure that win as we won over 20 games in 40 games challenge. we did win it, its just not official, yet
3. dont understand, what IA has to do with this?
4. again, while agree, i dont see a point of such observation
5. again, you are failing to see the point. first time and second time you applied two different set of rules. everything else doesnt matter.

and about rosters and claiming we desperately want to be in div 1. we are still looking through Nemesis shell we play. and im not so desperate to play in div 1. i am however desperate to find out which rules are going to be followed as im find it rather confusing this way cause i might found out we won against someone but the win is taken away because Stroop doesnt have enough milk in his refrigerator. or something like that... and im more then happy to play whichever clan i need to play, better or worse, the game is still the same...

[jpcloet]

Essentially the original decision followed this logic:

1. All clans in Season 1 were invited back, however, clans that defaulted on games or were really late all the time were put into Div2 as a penalty.
2. From the ladder, and from challenge results, judgment was used to rank the clans and place them in Div1 or Div2. A win or a series of wins over top ranked clans will always be valued more than wins over the lesser thans or unknowns.

This feels like deja vu and I'm sure something like this was already posted or pm'd a while back. Your win over Mythology is a win on a Div1 clan, however, it is not against a top-tier clan. IA is mentioned as that is where the BPB come into the decision.

Let's just play the games shall we?