Having the symbols appear somewhere on the map would seem appropriate to me, while keeping "Japan" as the title used in the Game Browser would avoid a lot of confusion. CC is an English-language site (primarily, I know there are fora and such running in other languages), and it seems "Nippon" is almost as much of an approximation to the pronounciation of those symbols as "Japan".RedBaron0 wrote:Nippon would be part of the map if the "日本" symbols become part of the map, and it is looking that way at this point. When pronounced, the word is said "ni-hon" or nippon. I'm don't think I'll change the title of the map when the change is already included in the map, unless there is a consensus from the community that Nippon is better than Japan for a title.
Japan - 日本 - Quenched
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Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun - 12th revision pg9
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thenobodies80
- Posts: 5401
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
- Gender: Male
- Location: Milan
good news
Hi RedBaron0
The new color for chugoku is good, now the mountains are clear.
Already suggested, but i hope you will work on sea routes...
Anyway, considering all the improvements done on this map, i think that it's time to focus on the gameplay.
I'm pleased to issue this map the draft stamp on behalf of the foundry community
Welcome to the foundry proper!
thenobodies80
The new color for chugoku is good, now the mountains are clear.
Already suggested, but i hope you will work on sea routes...
Anyway, considering all the improvements done on this map, i think that it's time to focus on the gameplay.
I'm pleased to issue this map the draft stamp on behalf of the foundry community
Welcome to the foundry proper!
thenobodies80
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun - 12th revision pg9
Congratulations on the stamp - let's get you into the main foundry 
PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
Many thanks for everyone's help on getting this far, but there is a long way to go yet!
I will continue to work on the connections across the seas, so far I've yet to get a look that I'm happy with. And I will ask folks still vote in the poll on the use of the "Land of the Rising Sun" sub-title and it's usage on the map, so far the use of "日本" leads the way.
Now though, I wish to focus the discussion on Gameplay. The main issues which have already been discussed is an imbalance to a player that gains control of either the North or South of the map. The center of the map may be harder to gain control of a bonus region and win a game. Also, bonus values may be skewed up or down for some regions. So far, I've changed the numbers for most a fair amount of times but not more than 1 army up or down each update, and in some occasions 1 update moves the value up, and the next update moves the value back down to the previous value, and after that the next update has the same region 1 army less... but you get the idea. From this I get the feeling the bonus values are pretty close to where they need to be, they just need to be adjusted slightly as other issues resolve themselves.
So here are my main questions to the community:
I will continue to work on the connections across the seas, so far I've yet to get a look that I'm happy with. And I will ask folks still vote in the poll on the use of the "Land of the Rising Sun" sub-title and it's usage on the map, so far the use of "日本" leads the way.
Now though, I wish to focus the discussion on Gameplay. The main issues which have already been discussed is an imbalance to a player that gains control of either the North or South of the map. The center of the map may be harder to gain control of a bonus region and win a game. Also, bonus values may be skewed up or down for some regions. So far, I've changed the numbers for most a fair amount of times but not more than 1 army up or down each update, and in some occasions 1 update moves the value up, and the next update moves the value back down to the previous value, and after that the next update has the same region 1 army less... but you get the idea. From this I get the feeling the bonus values are pretty close to where they need to be, they just need to be adjusted slightly as other issues resolve themselves.
So here are my main questions to the community:
- Can you see playing on the map in any area and gain victory?
Does the map unjustly favor a player setting up at either end of the map?
Are the bonus values fair?
Would there be issues for different game types? (other than the obvious small map-8 player game issue: 4 territories per player drop)
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lt_oddball
- Posts: 364
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Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
nice map.
You have a "sea of japan" point. useful map territory.
But why nothing on the other stretch of water of the pacific ? between kushiro and fukushima
and okinawa and chiba ?
You have a "sea of japan" point. useful map territory.
But why nothing on the other stretch of water of the pacific ? between kushiro and fukushima
and okinawa and chiba ?
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
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Industrial Helix
- Posts: 3462
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- Location: Ohio
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
Have you used one of the bonus calculator spreadsheets yet? I thought they were quite useful in determining the bonus values for regions.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 127&t=1410 Should be near the bottom of the post.
It looks like Hokkaido is the Aussie of this map, I imagine a lot of players are going to try and take the territory and hold at the two regions. Nothing wrong with that, though its not a strategy I would use. I would say bump it up to two. Yes, its an easy territory to hold but I think 1 man bonus doesn't reward the effort to take out 4 territories, I think Aussie on classic is 2 and its only got 1 hold point.
I know youre worried about the easiness of taking the west coast, but with the extra terr. for sea of Japan, I think East coast now holds an advantage as far as the north is concerned. It's not a huge advantage though, should be fine.
The best move though, would be to go for Shikoku and Kyushu and get the combined bonus, hold at two points. But it's not going to give you the game. I would suggest bumping Shikoku up to two or bumping Kyushu up to 3.
Kanto has a nice little seal up and hold area as well but I think the bonus is fine there.
It's going to be an interesting map to play because there's so many places to try and sit and hold... but at the same time you can't sit and hold one area and not worry about your opponent doing the same in another distant area. I can't see being able to set up on one side and being able to definitely win the game as your opponent likely has a bonus as well. So it should be pretty balanced.
But personally, i think these things are hard to call this early on without playing, but the above is my best guess.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 127&t=1410 Should be near the bottom of the post.
It looks like Hokkaido is the Aussie of this map, I imagine a lot of players are going to try and take the territory and hold at the two regions. Nothing wrong with that, though its not a strategy I would use. I would say bump it up to two. Yes, its an easy territory to hold but I think 1 man bonus doesn't reward the effort to take out 4 territories, I think Aussie on classic is 2 and its only got 1 hold point.
I know youre worried about the easiness of taking the west coast, but with the extra terr. for sea of Japan, I think East coast now holds an advantage as far as the north is concerned. It's not a huge advantage though, should be fine.
The best move though, would be to go for Shikoku and Kyushu and get the combined bonus, hold at two points. But it's not going to give you the game. I would suggest bumping Shikoku up to two or bumping Kyushu up to 3.
Kanto has a nice little seal up and hold area as well but I think the bonus is fine there.
It's going to be an interesting map to play because there's so many places to try and sit and hold... but at the same time you can't sit and hold one area and not worry about your opponent doing the same in another distant area. I can't see being able to set up on one side and being able to definitely win the game as your opponent likely has a bonus as well. So it should be pretty balanced.
But personally, i think these things are hard to call this early on without playing, but the above is my best guess.
Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=116575
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=116575
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barterer2002
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- Contact:
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
I'll agree with Helix that Hokkaido should be +2. Its got 2 attack points and 4 terts which seems more like S Am than Aussie but still +2.
I like what you did with the sea of Japan, gives some movability around the map which is a good thing IMO.
I also like the symbols rather than the "land of the rising sun" moniker
I like what you did with the sea of Japan, gives some movability around the map which is a good thing IMO.
I also like the symbols rather than the "land of the rising sun" moniker
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
I cast my vote for 日本 and am glad to see it is soaring ahead in the poll!
For the record, Japanese people usually pronounce it "Nihon" with "Nippon" (the source of the derogatory term "Nips", coined by American soldiers during WWII) much less common and mostly used when referring to National sports teams or used as a company name (e.g. Nippon Oil Corporation).
Congrats on the stamp! Finally looks like CC is gonna have a Japan map! Cool!
Mr.P.
For the record, Japanese people usually pronounce it "Nihon" with "Nippon" (the source of the derogatory term "Nips", coined by American soldiers during WWII) much less common and mostly used when referring to National sports teams or used as a company name (e.g. Nippon Oil Corporation).
Congrats on the stamp! Finally looks like CC is gonna have a Japan map! Cool!
Mr.P.
Re: [POLL] Japan, Land of the Rising Sun[D] - Gameplay
I will try that for the next update oddball see what everyone thinks.
I do have the bonus spreadsheets and the numbers come out like this:
Kyushu - 3 (3.08)
Shikoku - 3 (2.58)
Chugoku - 5 (5.42)
Hokuriku - 5 (4.83)
Kanto - 4 (3.75)
Tohoku - 5 (5.42
Hokkaido - 3 (2.75)
I tried a comparison to the classic map, and S. America came out at 3, Africa a 4, and Asia an 8, the other continents were the same, but there are 42 territories on the Classic map, here there are 32 + 1(or 2) neutral deploys. I figure that each value should be minus 1 which would give us:
Kyushu - 2 (2.08)
Shikoku - 2 (1.58)
Chugoku - 4 (4.42)
Hokuriku - 4 (3.83)
Kanto - 3 (2.75)
Tohoku - 4 (4.42)
Hokkaido - 2 (1.75)
If we take these numbers and run with them; Kyushu seems to be right on at 2; Shikoku is a soft 2 and could easily waffle between 2 and 1; Chugoku and Tohoku is a strong 4 that can waffle between 4 and 5; Kanto is a high 2, which may be more deserving of a 3; Hokkaido is the same way, a high 1 more deserving of a 2; and Hokuriku should do well at 4 I know the spreadsheet is just a tool, and ultimately it comes down to the decision of the map maker and the Foundry process to hammer out what a fair and reasonable value should be.
My impression goes like this: If Hokkaido is 2 Tohoku should be a 5 since there is only 1 small bonus bordering it. Kyushu would be a 2 and Shikoku can be either 1 or 2 and Chugoku should be a 4 since it will be easier to take with 2 bonuses behind it bringing in a total of 3 or 4 armies. Kanto can be a 3 next to a bonus of 4 for Hokuriku, making a decent starting position even though being in the middle of the map, but the center of the map will be more difficult to hold than either end hence it being worth more if you can hold it.
Best Bonus Values?
Kyushu - 2
Shikoku - 1
Chugoku - 4
Hokuriku - 4
Kanto - 3
Tohoku - 5
Hokkaido - 2
Different game types as it pertains to gameplay:
Games will have 1 (or 2) neutral drop leaving 32 territories to be divided between players, I'll show you some number to what player can look forward to when playing on this map(in it's current form) and give some possible drop scenarios that hopefully will show how likely it would be to drop a bonus on the first turn.
Each player would get this number of territories/neutrals
2 player game drop: 10/12
3 player game drop: 10/2
4 player game drop: 8/0
5 player game drop: 6/2
6 player game drop: 5/2
7 player game drop: 4/4
8 player game drop: 4/0
From these numbers the map will likely lend itself these game types, based on even numbers during the drop(IMO), but of course any type of game could be played successfully.
1v1
4 player standard
4 player doubles
8 player standard
8 player doubles
8 player quads
I'll do some random trials here and see how some games might play out. I'll do a trial on some of the game types and give to the info on how I see it. I put the territory names into the random.org list randomizer and took the first amount of territories for player 1 and so on down the line. For better visualization I printed out the map and grabbed some wrisk pieces.
1v1:
Green drops 3 of 4 territories in Hokkiado plus Aomori, Rishirito comes up neutral. Green also gets 2 territories in Kyushu opposed by 1 red territory and a neutral Tsushima. Green has a cluster of 3 territories, Okayama, Osaka, and Tokushima, the rest of Shikoku is neutral. Red has a better strategic postition in Chugoku with Hiroshima and Shimane, Fukui and Oki Island are neutral. Red has good postition in Hokuriku and Tohoku with a total of 6 territories(Ishikawa, Sado, Aichi, Iwate, Miyagi, Fukushima) with only 1 more green in Niigata. Red also has Tokyo, but the rest of Kanto is neutral.
To me gameplay will be pretty straight forward. Green will look to gain control of Hokkaido and in later turns Kyushu. Red will have to play the center of the map and take Hokuriku. Then take position in Fukushima and/or Shimane to be able to assault green's bonus(es). Seems like an even game, but green certainly will have the advantage with almost a bonus to start.
4 player standard:
1. Izu-Oshima
2. Fukui
3. Tokyo
4. Sado
5. Nagano
6. Yamagata
7. Rishirito
8. Hakodate
9. Niigata
10. Oki Island
11. Nagasaki
12. Ishikawa
13. Okinawa
14. Aichi
15. Tochigi
16. Chiba
17. Fukushima
18. Okayama
19. Kagoshima
20. Miyagi
21. Hiroshima
22. Kochi
23. Shimane
24. Aomori
25. Akita
26. Osaka
27. Oita
28. Sapporo
29. Iwate
30. Tokushima
31. Tsushima
32. Kushiro
So red has options with half of Hokkaido and Kanto, green has the other half of Kanto and 3 of 5 territories in Hokuriku. Blue has a good bunch in the southern half of the map, and yellow would have options with either half of Hokkaido or Kyushu.. This game would very much hinge who goes first, but the decision of the first player doesn't destroy the options of the rest. Say green goes first and focuses his attacks on red in Kanto to connect up with the armies he has in Hokuriku. Blue will probably look to take Kyushu. Yellow will go and depending on dice will either try and take Kyushu if blue didn't do well or take Hokkaido. Red is last will have to looks to move where it is best. Dice as always be an issue that steer strategy when things enviably go wrong.
This post is now super long... It really helps to have something in front of you that you can see and play with, but of course, I can not run the numbers for the thousands of games that will hopefully be played; odd things will happen, trends will emerge, and will need to be tweaked along the way. Hope this helps everyone, assuming you read at least half way through... 
I do have the bonus spreadsheets and the numbers come out like this:
Kyushu - 3 (3.08)
Shikoku - 3 (2.58)
Chugoku - 5 (5.42)
Hokuriku - 5 (4.83)
Kanto - 4 (3.75)
Tohoku - 5 (5.42
Hokkaido - 3 (2.75)
I tried a comparison to the classic map, and S. America came out at 3, Africa a 4, and Asia an 8, the other continents were the same, but there are 42 territories on the Classic map, here there are 32 + 1(or 2) neutral deploys. I figure that each value should be minus 1 which would give us:
Kyushu - 2 (2.08)
Shikoku - 2 (1.58)
Chugoku - 4 (4.42)
Hokuriku - 4 (3.83)
Kanto - 3 (2.75)
Tohoku - 4 (4.42)
Hokkaido - 2 (1.75)
If we take these numbers and run with them; Kyushu seems to be right on at 2; Shikoku is a soft 2 and could easily waffle between 2 and 1; Chugoku and Tohoku is a strong 4 that can waffle between 4 and 5; Kanto is a high 2, which may be more deserving of a 3; Hokkaido is the same way, a high 1 more deserving of a 2; and Hokuriku should do well at 4 I know the spreadsheet is just a tool, and ultimately it comes down to the decision of the map maker and the Foundry process to hammer out what a fair and reasonable value should be.
My impression goes like this: If Hokkaido is 2 Tohoku should be a 5 since there is only 1 small bonus bordering it. Kyushu would be a 2 and Shikoku can be either 1 or 2 and Chugoku should be a 4 since it will be easier to take with 2 bonuses behind it bringing in a total of 3 or 4 armies. Kanto can be a 3 next to a bonus of 4 for Hokuriku, making a decent starting position even though being in the middle of the map, but the center of the map will be more difficult to hold than either end hence it being worth more if you can hold it.
Best Bonus Values?
Kyushu - 2
Shikoku - 1
Chugoku - 4
Hokuriku - 4
Kanto - 3
Tohoku - 5
Hokkaido - 2
Different game types as it pertains to gameplay:
Games will have 1 (or 2) neutral drop leaving 32 territories to be divided between players, I'll show you some number to what player can look forward to when playing on this map(in it's current form) and give some possible drop scenarios that hopefully will show how likely it would be to drop a bonus on the first turn.
Each player would get this number of territories/neutrals
2 player game drop: 10/12
3 player game drop: 10/2
4 player game drop: 8/0
5 player game drop: 6/2
6 player game drop: 5/2
7 player game drop: 4/4
8 player game drop: 4/0
From these numbers the map will likely lend itself these game types, based on even numbers during the drop(IMO), but of course any type of game could be played successfully.
1v1
4 player standard
4 player doubles
8 player standard
8 player doubles
8 player quads
I'll do some random trials here and see how some games might play out. I'll do a trial on some of the game types and give to the info on how I see it. I put the territory names into the random.org list randomizer and took the first amount of territories for player 1 and so on down the line. For better visualization I printed out the map and grabbed some wrisk pieces.
1v1:
Green drops 3 of 4 territories in Hokkiado plus Aomori, Rishirito comes up neutral. Green also gets 2 territories in Kyushu opposed by 1 red territory and a neutral Tsushima. Green has a cluster of 3 territories, Okayama, Osaka, and Tokushima, the rest of Shikoku is neutral. Red has a better strategic postition in Chugoku with Hiroshima and Shimane, Fukui and Oki Island are neutral. Red has good postition in Hokuriku and Tohoku with a total of 6 territories(Ishikawa, Sado, Aichi, Iwate, Miyagi, Fukushima) with only 1 more green in Niigata. Red also has Tokyo, but the rest of Kanto is neutral.
To me gameplay will be pretty straight forward. Green will look to gain control of Hokkaido and in later turns Kyushu. Red will have to play the center of the map and take Hokuriku. Then take position in Fukushima and/or Shimane to be able to assault green's bonus(es). Seems like an even game, but green certainly will have the advantage with almost a bonus to start.
4 player standard:
1. Izu-Oshima
2. Fukui
3. Tokyo
4. Sado
5. Nagano
6. Yamagata
7. Rishirito
8. Hakodate
9. Niigata
10. Oki Island
11. Nagasaki
12. Ishikawa
13. Okinawa
14. Aichi
15. Tochigi
16. Chiba
17. Fukushima
18. Okayama
19. Kagoshima
20. Miyagi
21. Hiroshima
22. Kochi
23. Shimane
24. Aomori
25. Akita
26. Osaka
27. Oita
28. Sapporo
29. Iwate
30. Tokushima
31. Tsushima
32. Kushiro
So red has options with half of Hokkaido and Kanto, green has the other half of Kanto and 3 of 5 territories in Hokuriku. Blue has a good bunch in the southern half of the map, and yellow would have options with either half of Hokkaido or Kyushu.. This game would very much hinge who goes first, but the decision of the first player doesn't destroy the options of the rest. Say green goes first and focuses his attacks on red in Kanto to connect up with the armies he has in Hokuriku. Blue will probably look to take Kyushu. Yellow will go and depending on dice will either try and take Kyushu if blue didn't do well or take Hokkaido. Red is last will have to looks to move where it is best. Dice as always be an issue that steer strategy when things enviably go wrong.
This post is now super long... It really helps to have something in front of you that you can see and play with, but of course, I can not run the numbers for the thousands of games that will hopefully be played; odd things will happen, trends will emerge, and will need to be tweaked along the way. Hope this helps everyone, assuming you read at least half way through...
Re: [POLL] Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion {Updated 8-1}
Graphics:
Adjusted the lines from 2 pixel width to 1.5, I kept trying different versions of dots and lines at 1 pixel and they kept coming out pixelly, there may still be some pixelation there, but I'm okay with the lines right now, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I moved a few things around mostly to make room for the new territory. (more on that in a second) On the big version of the map I made sure the circles are the right size after enlarging the smaller version. I left the 88's off the big version.
Gameplay:
I added a territory in the Pacific Ocean like the Sea of Japan territory in the west. Doing so allowed me to erase some connections on the east coast. The addition of the new territory also let me adjust bonus values slightly from what I posted above. Which are as follows:
Kyushu - 2
Shikoku - 1
Chugoku - 4
Hokuriku - 4
Kanto - 2
Tohoku - 5
Hokkaido - 2
To better show what I tried to accomplish above. (if you read all of it ) I'll just put 7 maps in spoilers showing drops. Everyone can see what an opening drop -may- look like with different amounts of players playing. Look at the maps objectively and think about playing that game. The visual will help you see how a game might play out, but use your imagination, think if you were going first, second, or last, etc.
Adjusted the lines from 2 pixel width to 1.5, I kept trying different versions of dots and lines at 1 pixel and they kept coming out pixelly, there may still be some pixelation there, but I'm okay with the lines right now, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I moved a few things around mostly to make room for the new territory. (more on that in a second) On the big version of the map I made sure the circles are the right size after enlarging the smaller version. I left the 88's off the big version.
Gameplay:
I added a territory in the Pacific Ocean like the Sea of Japan territory in the west. Doing so allowed me to erase some connections on the east coast. The addition of the new territory also let me adjust bonus values slightly from what I posted above. Which are as follows:
Kyushu - 2
Shikoku - 1
Chugoku - 4
Hokuriku - 4
Kanto - 2
Tohoku - 5
Hokkaido - 2
To better show what I tried to accomplish above. (if you read all of it
) I'll just put 7 maps in spoilers showing drops. Everyone can see what an opening drop -may- look like with different amounts of players playing. Look at the maps objectively and think about playing that game. The visual will help you see how a game might play out, but use your imagination, think if you were going first, second, or last, etc.1v1
3 man game
To be posted 8/2
4 man game
5 man game
To be posted 8/2
6 man game
To be posted 8/2
7 man game
To be posted 8/2
8 man game
To be posted 8/2
Re: [POLL] Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion {Updated 8-1}
Are you sure that the number is right for a 1v1 game given the 1 or 2 neutral starting territories? I think it might end up being that each player starts with 11 and there are 10 neutrals plus the one or two neutral starting territories, but I am not 100% sure on that.RedBaron0 wrote:Each player would get this number of territories/neutrals
2 player game drop: 10/12
3 player game drop: 10/2
4 player game drop: 8/0
5 player game drop: 6/2
6 player game drop: 5/2
7 player game drop: 4/4
8 player game drop: 4/0
Re: [POLL] Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion {Updated 8-1}
You might be right lance, I 'll check into it. I thought a 1v1 came out the same as a 3 player game, the third player drawing being the nuetral player.
Re: [POLL] Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion {Updated 8-1}
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... e#p1868482
This is all I could find, and I believe it confirms my original numbers for a 2 player game at 10/10/12(n)
3 man game
4 man game
5 man game
6 man game
7 man game
8 man game
As I look at these possible drops, I'm thinking that for better use of the neutral drop sea territories I'm thinking that the starting number of armies should be 2 not 3, and maybe I should think about adding a bonus(probably +1 army) for holding both sea territories, perhaps?
This is all I could find, and I believe it confirms my original numbers for a 2 player game at 10/10/12(n)
2 man gameRedBaron0 wrote:To better show what I tried to accomplish above. (if you read all of it
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
Took the poll off, the 日本 has had the majority the whole time and another 2 days won't change that. The 13th revision, as was done on the 1st is correct with the graphical accent in the bottom corner.
The example drops(see above) are giving me good insight into how games will play out with the current connections and bonus structure, but I need YOUR input too!! Good, bad, indifferent, all opinions are welcome!
The example drops(see above) are giving me good insight into how games will play out with the current connections and bonus structure, but I need YOUR input too!! Good, bad, indifferent, all opinions are welcome!
-
lt_oddball
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:17 am
- Location: Fortress Europe
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
RedBaron0 wrote: The example drops(see above) are giving me good insight into how games will play out with the current connections and bonus structure, but I need YOUR input too!! Good, bad, indifferent, all opinions are welcome!
These drop examples are just that: random drops? Or are these the fixed starting positions for the players ?
(sometimes orange and red in 8 player game for instance, are too closely cluttered...that's just a coincidence ?)
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
Yeah, how random are the examples? I know it's hard to forecast all possibilities but looking at the 2-player drop: green only needs to take a lone neutral (which he can attack from two points) to bag Hokkaido and red isn't facing down any of his borders.
If green is up first it could be game over (if unlimited forts it SHOULD be game over). Even if red was up first he doesn't have much option and if it was me I'd be worried about the north.
Shit happens you say? Yeah, true . . .
Mr P.
If green is up first it could be game over (if unlimited forts it SHOULD be game over). Even if red was up first he doesn't have much option and if it was me I'd be worried about the north.
Shit happens you say? Yeah, true . . .
Mr P.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
I thought it might be something helpful towards gaining the gameplay stamp if players could see the map with armies on it. I dunno I think I may have made the process more confusing...
These drops are totally random. I just threw all the territory names into the list randomizer at random.org and took the first amount of territories for red and so on down the line. The 2 player drop does heavily favor green, especially if they goes first. The red drop isn't a total loss though, he can try and take Hokuriku, by taking out the one green and the neutral. That bonus is pretty much insulated by neutrals except for the one border with green at Osaka.
And the 8 player game does have a cluster of orange and red fairly close together. Purely coincidence.
The problem here is that to truly gauge how likely a player will drop a bonus during setup would be to do hundreds or thousands of test drops and chart the results.
These drops are totally random. I just threw all the territory names into the list randomizer at random.org and took the first amount of territories for red and so on down the line. The 2 player drop does heavily favor green, especially if they goes first. The red drop isn't a total loss though, he can try and take Hokuriku, by taking out the one green and the neutral. That bonus is pretty much insulated by neutrals except for the one border with green at Osaka.
And the 8 player game does have a cluster of orange and red fairly close together. Purely coincidence.
The problem here is that to truly gauge how likely a player will drop a bonus during setup would be to do hundreds or thousands of test drops and chart the results.
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lt_oddball
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Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
issue solved. answer given.RedBaron0 wrote: And the 8 player game does have a cluster of orange and red fairly close together. Purely coincidence.
The problem here is that to truly gauge how likely a player will drop a bonus during setup would be to do hundreds or thousands of test drops and chart the results.
I say go.
what's next ?
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-1
Probably a few more of those, and maybe another update.lt_oddball wrote:issue solved. answer given.
I say go.
what's next ?
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-13 pg1&10
- Click image to enlarge.
I know I'm flirting with bad numbers territory wise(36 makes for a BAD 1v1 scenario) So this will be as high I will go territory wise, unless I jump up to 39 territories, but I can't see adding 4 more territories anywhere on the land, they'd almost have to be sea territories.Then I'd look to make a bonus out of say 3-4 territories a piece in both the the Pacific and the Sea of Japan.
35 territory drop breakdown
2 player game drop: 11/13
3 player game drop: 11/2
4 player game drop: 8/3
5 player game drop: 7/0
6 player game drop: 5/5
7 player game drop: 5/0
8 player game drop: 4/3
3 player game drop: 11/2
4 player game drop: 8/3
5 player game drop: 7/0
6 player game drop: 5/5
7 player game drop: 5/0
8 player game drop: 4/3
) which I find to be very appealing to the eye. My opinion however doesn't have much weight here though... so lets hear what you think!!-
lt_oddball
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Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-13 pg1&10
Why is it particularly bad ?(I find any 1vs 1 game in which almost all terr. are immediately used by players BAD)RedBaron0 wrote: 36 makes for a BAD 1v1 scenario
You can add the islands Amami and Kagoshima (above okinawa) and Goto (next Tsushima).RedBaron0 wrote: but I can't see adding 4 more territories anywhere on the land, they'd almost have to be sea territories.Then I'd look to make a bonus out of say 3-4 territories a piece in both the the Pacific and the Sea of Japan.
Alternatively have the extra pacific or japan Sea terr. named after a fishing grounds like "tuna fish areas" and "whaling fishing grounds"...but then in Nipponese
.Naturally if you get 3 or 4 ocean terr. linked together then it is good for a bonusvalue too.
what is the bevel ? a bit of shadow under the bonusnumber ?RedBaron0 wrote: Graphically I've added a bevel to the main map
Ok. nice.
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-13 pg1&10
I think the usual objection is that with 36 territories, each player starts with twelve, which earns 4 troops, but the first player can fairly easily take one territory from the second and knock that down to three before the second player has a chance to do anything.lt_oddball wrote:Why is it particularly bad ?(I find any 1vs 1 game in which almost all terr. are immediately used by players BAD)RedBaron0 wrote: 36 makes for a BAD 1v1 scenario
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-13 pg1&10
What he said...ender516 wrote:I think the usual objection is that with 36 territories, each player starts with twelve, which earns 4 troops, but the first player can fairly easily take one territory from the second and knock that down to three before the second player has a chance to do anything.lt_oddball wrote:Why is it particularly bad ?(I find any 1vs 1 game in which almost all terr. are immediately used by players BAD)RedBaron0 wrote: 36 makes for a BAD 1v1 scenario
The major example I can think of this of current maps is Australia. That map has exactly 36 territories. Although I have 37 territories, the 2 neutral deploys aren't included the initial drop division of territories. The main question though, is whether or not for this map, additional territories upwards of 39-42 would be better IF they can be added without cluttering the map. Adding island and sea territories might be the way to go if this be the case, as already suggested.A bevel is more or less a 3-D lighting affect. You can see it mostly on the west coast of the map. It is a lighter raised area, but shows up anywhere with a northwest orientation, it also slightly darkens the opposite area (south east) so it kinda seems like the each bonus region is slightly popping out of bonus outline.
Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-14 pg10
Should this be the direction, by adding more territories, I give this sort-of update that has Japan minus the sea territories, BUT with 42 territories on the land.
- Click image to enlarge.
- Click image to enlarge.
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porkenbeans
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Re: Japan - 日本 [D] - Gameplay Discussion - UPDATED 8-14 pg10
Here for the review,
I have only briefly looked at the map, and have not YET read the thread. I will give my first impressions. And, then get back, after further study.
#1.) I think that the stroke is way to much. It jumps out at me, right off the bat.
#2.) I like the intensity of the color, but it needs to be contrasted against the water. The water could be de-saturated and lightened a bit to accomplish this.
Not a bad start.
I have only briefly looked at the map, and have not YET read the thread. I will give my first impressions. And, then get back, after further study.
#1.) I think that the stroke is way to much. It jumps out at me, right off the bat.
#2.) I like the intensity of the color, but it needs to be contrasted against the water. The water could be de-saturated and lightened a bit to accomplish this.
Not a bad start.
