GabonX interjects an interesting poll

[a.sub]

after not reading the whole thread i would like to interject a bit myself

i would like to propose an interesting theory, i believe that what was "right" was what ever the winners did. wouldn't it make sense that if Hitler won the war and took over the world we would be thanking him for wiping out the evil Jews?
just as when the Allies won we were all thankful that they destroyed the evil Nazis?
I'm not saying that either side is necessarily right, but i am saying that what is considered the standard for being right would be what ever the winners do. A small but relevant example would be the Japanese internment camps hosted by us Americans. they were is NO WAY comparable to the ones of the Nazis. But the concept was similar and today nobody remembers it (calm down i realize ppl remember, but im making a point that very few remember)

just my 2 cents

[PLAYER57832]

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

Didn't you know? The right wing is quite intent on changing the definition of "liberal" to "evil". When you can't win the debate, just change the definitions. After all, isn't that right in the Oxford debate rules as a proper debate tactic?

Yes, because every right wing person is an extremist to you, aren't they? Simply is someone is registered as GOP, they are now a right wing nut job.

My comment was half "tongue in cheek", but the concerted effort by the right to redefine the center as "liberal" and to move people further and further to the right, whether it really is in their own interests or not, is pretty well documented.

When it comes to race and, even to a large extent, gender equity, all but the extremes are pretty much on the "same page", what used to be called "liberal". When it comes to economics, health care, religion, and science in schools, though ... Too many choose to define anything but the far right as "liberal".

[PLAYER57832]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

To a degree, yes.

For the specific choices? No. Are they responsible for them being in their leadership position? Yes, I would say they're responsible, if the individual did not do what they could (I would make an exception for extremes) to see that the individual did not get into power...even if it were a military coup-style takeover. Everyone is responsible for their leadership.

Then you clearly do not understand these regimes. Anyone who even voices opposition is imprisoned or killed. Its a matter of shutting up and living, or protesting and your whole family getting killed. You cannot blame the Germans for the things the Nazis did, or blame the Cambodians for what Pol Pot did, or blame North Koreans for what Kim Jong Il is doing.

I believe the key words are "to a point". In the case of the Germans, they elected Hitler and they did very much stand by while trains went by loaded with Jews, felt ashes fall upon their heads and many to this day still claim they "did not know". People in other countries, facing those very same threats, did stand up and oppose. Was every German a member of the SS? Was every German even a Nazis? NO! But, most were hardly innocent, either. It is not just what happened after Hitler came to power, it is also the feelings of the time that allowed it to happen. This is why we must study history so carefully. The next Hitler will not be coming out against Jews, may not be fighting any religion at all. (my vote is for anti liberal feelings at this point), but the next Hitlerwill come.


In the case of all but Kim Jong, people saw a change and either faught against it as best they could or did not.

Kim Jong is an exception because people now alive in that country no nothing else.

[comic boy]

after not reading the whole thread i would like to interject a bit myself

i would like to propose an interesting theory, i believe that what was "right" was what ever the winners did. wouldn't it make sense that if Hitler won the war and took over the world we would be thanking him for wiping out the evil Jews?
just as when the Allies won we were all thankful that they destroyed the evil Nazis?
I'm not saying that either side is necessarily right, but i am saying that what is considered the standard for being right would be what ever the winners do. A small but relevant example would be the Japanese internment camps hosted by us Americans. they were is NO WAY comparable to the ones of the Nazis. But the concept was similar and today nobody remembers it (calm down i realize ppl remember, but im making a point that very few remember)

just my 2 cents

Firstly the wholesale extermination of millions of people would never be 'right' , secondly the Japanese interned in the USA were very very lucky compared with the way POW and civilians were treated by the Japanese. How many Japanese interned in the USA were employed as slave labour or starved/worked/beaten to death ? Germany as a nation at least recognised the evil of what it had done and were shamed by it, the Japanese by contrast have shown no remorse and largely chosen to ignore what was done.

[Titanic]

I believe the key words are "to a point". In the case of the Germans, they elected Hitler and they did very much stand by while trains went by loaded with Jews, felt ashes fall upon their heads and many to this day still claim they "did not know". People in other countries, facing those very same threats, did stand up and oppose. Was every German a member of the SS? Was every German even a Nazis? NO! But, most were hardly innocent, either. It is not just what happened after Hitler came to power, it is also the feelings of the time that allowed it to happen. This is why we must study history so carefully. The next Hitler will not be coming out against Jews, may not be fighting any religion at all. (my vote is for anti liberal feelings at this point), but the next Hitlerwill come.


In the case of all but Kim Jong, people saw a change and either faught against it as best they could or did not.

Kim Jong is an exception because people now alive in that country no nothing else.

Yes the Nazis were elected, but only after a huge scare campaign and intimidation (inc. burning of the Reichstag soon after gaining power), and once they had power they imposed control on the media and free speech and made it impossible to throw them out of government. Very few people knew the full extent of what the Nazis were doing, heck the allies only found out about the concentration camps towards the very end of WWII (even though they had taken photos of the sites from planes), how the hell were German citizens living under censorship supposed to know what the hell was going on? Yes I agree they must have had a sense of what was going on, but the fact was they were so scared of speaking out. Tons of people were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out and the SS/SA had so many spies and tapped so many people that citizens were scarred of talking out even in their own living room.

I don't believe that there will be "another Hitler". Yes there are evil people out there, but especially in liberal democratic states you can't be elected if you have such an extremist views (hence the BNP). They might get elected to some lesser states, but the other major powers (Russia, China, India etc..) still have some sense and won't go for all out war due to MAD.

[PLAYER57832]

I was in the plane, down south a few years ago. The plane was almost empty, but a lady with a small child of mixed race sat across the isle. We got to talking and it turned out she was from Germany. We chatted and at some point I think I asked her how her visit had gone, what she thought of the US, etc. She railed me with disgust at the racism in our country. Now, this was the south, and even though things had changed a GREAT deal, it was/is definitely not yet a "model of racial acceptance". Still, as I listened to her rail on and on, I began to bristle a bit. I agreed,to a point, but when she told me that "it just isn't like that in Germany", I reminded her that both the south and Germany had nasty histories. She kind of sneered and said "you mean the Nazis". I said, "no, I mean Germans."

Now, understand, this was mostly a snotty response to some snotty comments, but I do think its all too easy for some German's to forget their history. Forgetting history is a good way to ensure it is repeated. Most Germans, today, are very tolerant, educated, etc. However, much as they might wish to forget history, I think none of us ever should.

Theres a difference between forgetting history and moving on. The German nation and its people are nothing like the Nazis, and I am 100% sure that they know what their history is and what happened in the past and aren't trying to forget what happened. However relating to your story, I believe the woman is right. Even non-americans know what kind of people live in the south and don't have to visit there to know its still very racist, whilst in Europe you rarely get whole communities or regions full of white supremacists and deeply racist so her point that "it just isn't like that in Germany" is 100% valid.

Germany has changed, no doubt. However, a lot of the reason why Germany has been able to do so is the Marshall plan, etc. Also, the entire of Germany is smaller than the south and it was still segregated only 20 years ago, not 60.
Despite what "even non-Americans" know, the south has changed a great deal. The south is getting more tolerant (not perfect, but that is part of living in a free country) and has always had many active and thriving black communities, right alongside the white ones. Germany has seen a (still small, but definitely present) resurgeance in racism, partially with influx of East Germans, other factors.

I only criticize Germany when I hear crows of how egalitarian and unjudgemental the country is, but no, I don't think she really had a point. She was looking at the stick in our eye and not the one in her own.

[Titanic]

Germany has changed, no doubt. However, a lot of the reason why Germany has been able to do so is the Marshall plan, etc. Also, the entire of Germany is smaller than the south and it was still segregated only 20 years ago, not 60.
Despite what "even non-Americans" know, the south has changed a great deal. The south is getting more tolerant (not perfect, but that is part of living in a free country) and has always had many active and thriving black communities, right alongside the white ones. Germany has seen a (still small, but definitely present) resurgeance in racism, partially with influx of East Germans, other factors.

I only criticize Germany when I hear crows of how egalitarian and unjudgemental the country is, but no, I don't think she really had a point. She was looking at the stick in our eye and not the one in her own.

Well if the stick in your eye is as big as a tree, but the one in her eye is just a twig.....

[Ray Rider]

It really IS that simple, in this case. I'm speaking of each group as a whole (because that is how the question is worded) and their intentions, not of individuals, of course.

Absolutely.

Obviously individual Germans were not "all evil", but even aside from what we know now of how Nazis treated Jews, etc., Germans were absolutely the agressors and we came in both at the request of Europe AND because we faced Japanese aggression.

Self-defense always outweighs aggression when it comes to wars.

Now, if you want to discuss whether things we did helped usher in the Nazis or similar type issues, you might have more of a debate.

Agreed.

Btw, its very hard to say which of the Nazis or Soviets were the lesser of two evils. During the war it was believed by the allies that the Soviets were the better choice, but as the war progressed it became more and more clear that the Soviets were no better, and now history tells us that both of them were pretty much as bad as each other.

The Soviets weren't part of this question; the choice was between the Nazis or the Americans, so this is just a bunny trail. But yes, I agree that the Soviets were even worse than the Nazis. My great grandparents were living in the Ukraine during World War II and found that the advancing German army treated them much better than the Soviets. When the Soviet army forced the Germans back towards Germany, my relatives packed up and fled with them. Although their decision to flee with the Germans was also affected by their treatment during the Russian civil war when my relatives were caught between the Red army and White army, with both armies pillaging and raping.

[Woodruff]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

To a degree, yes.
For the specific choices? No. Are they responsible for them being in their leadership position? Yes, I would say they're responsible, if the individual did not do what they could (I would make an exception for extremes) to see that the individual did not get into power...even if it were a military coup-style takeover. Everyone is responsible for their leadership.

Then you clearly do not understand these regimes. Anyone who even voices opposition is imprisoned or killed. Its a matter of shutting up and living, or protesting and your whole family getting killed. You cannot blame the Germans for the things the Nazis did, or blame the Cambodians for what Pol Pot did, or blame North Koreans for what Kim Jong Il is doing.

<laughing> That's funny. I understand the regimes far better than you seem to think, but that is irrelevant to doing the right thing. There is no question that Hitler would have had ZERO power if NONE of his people had followed him. In ANY situation, people ARE responsible for the government they have over them. In the instance you put above, they absolutely could be imprisoned or killed...there's no question that is the stance they should have taken. Lack of courage is the only reason not to. This is the same excuse given when soldiers follow illegal orders (for instance, to torture POWs)...following someone only out of fear is quite simply sad.

Now, understand, this was mostly a snotty response to some snotty comments, but I do think its all too easy for some German's to forget their history. Forgetting history is a good way to ensure it is repeated. Most Germans, today, are very tolerant, educated, etc. However, much as they might wish to forget history, I think none of us ever should.

I loved your response to her...it was perfect. But in my personal experience (6 years of living there), most older Germans don't try to avoid the subject (though they certainly don't bring it up themselves...hell, I wouldn't) and are very embarrassed and remorseful over that part of their past.

For my experience it was YOU DAMN KIDS! (old man voice to the German kids) who were the biggest problem in this regard.

Tons of people were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out and the SS/SA had so many spies and tapped so many people that citizens were scarred of talking out even in their own living room.

Here you touch on my point. Those who were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out were the only ones doing the right thing.

[Titanic]

<laughing> That's funny. I understand the regimes far better than you seem to think, but that is irrelevant to doing the right thing. There is no question that Hitler would have had ZERO power if NONE of his people had followed him. In ANY situation, people ARE responsible for the government they have over them. In the instance you put above, they absolutely could be imprisoned or killed...there's no question that is the stance they should have taken. Lack of courage is the only reason not to. This is the same excuse given when soldiers follow illegal orders (for instance, to torture POWs)...following someone only out of fear is quite simply sad.

Thats crap. Your arguament is baseless and dusn follow any sort of logic. These people come into power through either fear or strength. In the case of the Nazis it was through fear, and by making the population feat communists, jews, liberals etc.. the expanded their control and made every single person fear for their lives. When you don't dare talk within your own family about the leadership because a SS officer may be eavesdropping on you, how do you expect a whole nation to rise up? Every single civilian was either brainwashed or scared shitless, and those who tried to rise up were brutally suppressed and their families killed or taken away.

It's not about courage or responsibility, its about not having the opportunity or knowledge to even try and start anything. For example, the soldiers themselves were fed so much bs that when German POW's in 1945 arrived at America/British POW camps, the POW's from earlier in the war refused to believe that they were taken captive after ally victories in France, Netherlands or anywhere else in Western Europe. No one was allowed to believe anything but the party line, and clearly you don't understand whats its like to live under a totalitarian government.

[PLAYER57832]

Now, understand, this was mostly a snotty response to some snotty comments, but I do think its all too easy for some German's to forget their history. Forgetting history is a good way to ensure it is repeated. Most Germans, today, are very tolerant, educated, etc. However, much as they might wish to forget history, I think none of us ever should.

I loved your response to her...it was perfect. But in my personal experience (6 years of living there), most older Germans don't try to avoid the subject (though they certainly don't bring it up themselves...hell, I wouldn't) and are very embarrassed and remorseful over that part of their past.

For my experience it was YOU DAMN KIDS! (old man voice to the German kids) who were the biggest problem in this regard.

I do think Germany has reformed in a very, very big way. I think, to a point, whenever you travel to another country (we there or they here), you often appear a bit rude just because there are subtle cultural differences. Also, well, maybe those who travel are more those who have the money and ... that can make a big difference, too.

Anyway, its much easier to pass judgement than to work to correct things in front of us.

[sailorseal]

It really IS that simple, in this case. I'm speaking of each group as a whole (because that is how the question is worded) and their intentions, not of individuals, of course.

You are completely correct

[PLAYER57832]

Tons of people were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out and the SS/SA had so many spies and tapped so many people that citizens were scarred of talking out even in their own living room.

Here you touch on my point. Those who were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out were the only ones doing the right thing.

Not the only ones, but sometimes being in prison, or even being shot is the "moral" choice. Not always. After all, he who lives another day, gets to talk another day. Its complicated, but even if the dissent is subtle, it can still be effective.

My big point is that even thinking about once the war actually started is a bit too late. Wars don't really start with the first bullet or bomb. They often really start years, if not decades prior.

[Woodruff]

Tons of people were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out and the SS/SA had so many spies and tapped so many people that citizens were scarred of talking out even in their own living room.

Here you touch on my point. Those who were arrested and imprisoned for speaking out were the only ones doing the right thing.

Not the only ones, but sometimes being in prison, or even being shot is the "moral" choice. Not always. After all, he who lives another day, gets to talk another day. Its complicated, but even if the dissent is subtle, it can still be effective.

I can agree with that, given participation in some sort of an "underground resistance"...sure. But that would be about the extent of it, in my opinion.

[Woodruff]

<laughing> That's funny. I understand the regimes far better than you seem to think, but that is irrelevant to doing the right thing. There is no question that Hitler would have had ZERO power if NONE of his people had followed him. In ANY situation, people ARE responsible for the government they have over them. In the instance you put above, they absolutely could be imprisoned or killed...there's no question that is the stance they should have taken. Lack of courage is the only reason not to. This is the same excuse given when soldiers follow illegal orders (for instance, to torture POWs)...following someone only out of fear is quite simply sad.

Thats crap. Your arguament is baseless and dusn follow any sort of logic. These people come into power through either fear or strength. In the case of the Nazis it was through fear, and by making the population feat communists, jews, liberals etc.. the expanded their control and made every single person fear for their lives. When you don't dare talk within your own family about the leadership because a SS officer may be eavesdropping on you, how do you expect a whole nation to rise up? Every single civilian was either brainwashed or scared shitless, and those who tried to rise up were brutally suppressed and their families killed or taken away.
It's not about courage or responsibility, its about not having the opportunity or knowledge to even try and start anything. For example, the soldiers themselves were fed so much bs that when German POW's in 1945 arrived at America/British POW camps, the POW's from earlier in the war refused to believe that they were taken captive after ally victories in France, Netherlands or anywhere else in Western Europe. No one was allowed to believe anything but the party line, and clearly you don't understand whats its like to live under a totalitarian government.

I guess you and I will simply have to agree to disagree then. I believe in doing the right thing, regardless of the consequences. Can "the right thing" be grayed sometimes? Absolutely...as PLAYER57832 mentioned above, being in part of an underground resistance would still be doing the right thing (actually working to overthrow the regime without being overt about it enough to be arrested). But if you tolerate "the wrong thing" being done, then you are almost as responsible as those actually doing the wrong thing, in my opinion. Everything else is simply excuse-making and cowardice.

[Phatscotty]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

So, your position is that all liberals think the nazis were the good guys in WWII?

virtually, And i would love to hear your opinion on why that would be wrong of me to assume.

[Phatscotty]

Nazi sympathizers[/quote]
liberals[/quote]

Were the ones who fought Fascism during the thirties [/quote]
Could have sworn that it was other German political parties, like the ones that were not of the Nazi Party?[/quote]

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.[/quote]
still true, and whatever you are swearing about is retarded. to even bring up swine and aids and hurricanes is retarded

[Phatscotty]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

Yes, cuz the only ones alive are the people who went along with it,(as in a totalitarian gov't kills opposers no?) and if the regime took over before they were born, then its just the sins of their fathers. If someone tried to stop it and failed, then yes, they still failed. America helps when we can, even if only as a symbol of hope.

[PLAYER57832]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

So, your position is that all liberals think the nazis were the good guys in WWII?

virtually, And i would love to hear your opinion on why that would be wrong of me to assume.

Oh, just the mere definition of "liberal" :

Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals.[1]

Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for political liberalism, which is a set of ideas that express support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3][4][5] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[6]

Funny, I don't see anything there about needing a master race, a controlled economy or any other issue.

By-the way, on the political spectrum Fascism is the far right.. communism is the far left. Liberal is to the left of center, but definitely not communism any more than espousing a belief in the free market make you a Nazis Fascist.

[Phatscotty]

player, dont quote me any more with responses of copy and pasting. puh-lease for the love of god help yourself to a book. im not responding to anymore of your ridiculous threads

[Woodruff]

player, dont quote me any more with responses of copy and pasting. puh-lease for the love of god help yourself to a book. im not responding to anymore of your ridiculous threads

So this is your admission that you're only trolling the thread then, right? Because from everything I've seen, that's ALL you've done.

[Timminz]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

So, your position is that all liberals think the nazis were the good guys in WWII?

virtually, And i would love to hear your opinion on why that would be wrong of me to assume.

I can't believe anyone is still "debating" you. Generally, successful trolls show some form of intelligence.

[Rustovitch]

Two countries go to war purely out of national politics, neither side was the 'good side'. Sure you can come up with lengthy arguments as to who was worse, but we really need to grow up with regards to things like this.

[Strife]

Two countries go to war purely out of national politics, neither side was the 'good side'. Sure you can come up with lengthy arguments as to who was worse, but we really need to grow up with regards to things like this.

Do you know what the first "W" in WW2 stand for?

America didn't go to war with germany, there was already a war. They just joined in(Obviously they weren't going to join the side that mass killed Jew's and had recently bombed them).

[PLAYER57832]

Two countries go to war purely out of national politics, neither side was the 'good side'. Sure you can come up with lengthy arguments as to who was worse, but we really need to grow up with regards to things like this.

Do you know what the first "W" in WW2 stand for?

America didn't go to war with germany, there was already a war. They just joined in(Obviously they weren't going to join the side that mass killed Jew's and had recently bombed them).

While I agree with your point, I am not sure at all that Americans joined the war because Jews were being killed. Though historians disagree on how much was known when by our leaders, I don't believe anyone really accepted the extent until after the war.

We joined because of Japan and because of Britain, mostly.