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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby Lubawski on Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:02 pm

hwhrhett wrote:
Lubawski wrote:I like how this works, but I don't think the CLA results should be used, at least not this time around. It only consisted of doubles games for one, and because, as I understood it, it would not count toward the ladder, I sent out 18-20 different people every week and experimented with teams and maps. We took it as a practice battle ground, not the real thing. It's like deciding after the fact that you are going to count a pre-test as the actual test. Not everyone prepared for it adequately. I do like the RPI version though. I think it will yield better and more accurate results.



if we had not decided 6 months ago that they would count, then i would have done the same thing....


Did we decide that? I don't recall that being a decision. I'll have to go back and look. I thought we decided not to count them.

Edit: I'm wrong...damn. Well, at least we finished strong :?
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby Knight2254 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:31 pm

This might be too complicated, but perhaps we can give heightened importance to more recent wins/losses? Clans change and evolve over time as players come and go and this would have more of a bearing on current clan status. I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into a reliability factor, but maybe something like the importance/value of wins falls of by 20% each year or something.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:37 pm

The easiest option might be to do like baseball and have the last X matches or someting, however, if you drop the 6th oldest challenge for one clan, it may be a more recent one for another clan. This may be too complicated for now.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby hwhrhett on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:48 pm

Knight2254 wrote:This might be too complicated, but perhaps we can give heightened importance to more recent wins/losses? Clans change and evolve over time as players come and go and this would have more of a bearing on current clan status. I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into a reliability factor, but maybe something like the importance/value of wins falls of by 20% each year or something.



i think regardless of who is in a clan, it is the clan that is competing and not the individuals. which individuals participated in what challenges should make no difference, because they were fighting under the same moniker. clans may change and evolve, players come and go, but i see no reason why this should be a factor...
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:49 pm

I think Sky Force is a good example, they used to get picked on and now they have learned to win together. Clans do evolve and I'd like to keep 2 years worth of data. We currently hold 3 or 4 challenge results older than 2 years. I could see a move to a year and a half soon. Might be a good vote for the end of this year in the CLA.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby andy_is_awesome on Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:45 pm

hwhrhett wrote:
Knight2254 wrote:This might be too complicated, but perhaps we can give heightened importance to more recent wins/losses? Clans change and evolve over time as players come and go and this would have more of a bearing on current clan status. I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into a reliability factor, but maybe something like the importance/value of wins falls of by 20% each year or something.



i think regardless of who is in a clan, it is the clan that is competing and not the individuals. which individuals participated in what challenges should make no difference, because they were fighting under the same moniker. clans may change and evolve, players come and go, but i see no reason why this should be a factor...


I agree that games from 3 years ago shouldn't bear any weight on how my clan is currently ranked. In college football, they do pre-season rankings based on the last years record, but last years games don't play an importance on where the teams are ranked at the end of the current season. Just used as a starting point for the current season.

And how is Water's Fury ranked higher than the Agents of Chaos?
We beat them 13-7 and that was when we sucked.
viewtopic.php?f=442&t=79935
I think using challenge sizes to determine ladder rank is going to keep the ladder skewed in favor of the clans that play more. Just because a clan plays small challenges and less often, doesn't mean that they aren't better than a clan that plays bigger and more often. Thoughts?

(Not sure if my name is on the CLA list, but GrimReaper and Darthblood are in. I was just promoted to help them with the clan and wanted to make a comment.)
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:36 am

andy_is_awesome wrote:And how is Water's Fury ranked higher than the Agents of Chaos?
We beat them 13-7 and that was when we sucked.

You have to take into consideration OWP and OOWP. Water's Fury has played better competition in terms of facing Sky Force. AOC has only faced WF, and is currently beating up an un-ranked clan. I suspect that you will leap ahead of them with that win, but until you face some more solid proven clans, you will be near the lower end. I would suggest going up a level and try taking on Mythology or a clan of that ranking, or even higher if you feel you are ready. LOD is pretty much ready for their next challenge.
andy_is_awesome wrote:I think using challenge sizes to determine ladder rank is going to keep the ladder skewed in favor of the clans that play more. Just because a clan plays small challenges and less often, doesn't mean that they aren't better than a clan that plays bigger and more often. Thoughts?


Once a clan hits 3 completed matches and more than 60 games, the factor moves to 1.00. The general opinion is that 40 games is where you get a much better indication of talent and skill for one challenge. Everything we've seen so far tells me that the ladder is working the way it should. Plus after 180 games, the league seems to be showing very similar results among the top clans.
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Re: 2009 Clan League - Table June 28th-09 (THOTA Leads)

Postby HardAttack on Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:38 am

Blitzaholic wrote:
jackin_u_up wrote:Just Curious and maybe i missed it.... but are the results of our divisional 20 game sets going to actually go down on Record as clan war results ?

I understand they are being factored into the clan ladder RPI ratings but i looked in a couple threads and couldn't find this being discussed.

IMO i think they should go down on record as a clan war. anyone else :idea:




jp said he was going to count it if they are 20 games completed vs the same clan


however, I disagree and do not think this should be counted as 20 games, as 20 games is too small of a sample and I suggest none should be counted unless it is at least 40 games or more against one clan, perhaps we should put this to a vote. With 40 games or more, more games the better tends to help measure skill a little more and evens out the luck drops and dice factors, after all, we all would like this clan ladder rating system to reflect skill more than luck, I personally would like it 60 to 100 games, but, to be fair, a minimum of 40 is a good measurement.



respectfully, blitz


The above examples are based on extremes. Being a mid class clan, Nemesis, is a tough one and full of passionate players and friends. We are new, barely 1 years old.
The above statement suggests to put the clan challenges into wastebasket which has been played based on less than 40 games. No no no ! This has no sense.
The comment, as soon as to be valid from now on, valid on the future clan challenges, then very valueable and wellcomed here. However, if it has sanction on previously completed challenges, then i strongly reject the idea. Then it slightly turns out to be backing of some specific clans who made their challenges fitting with the above criteria.
I have reasons :
1./ Such a rule/custom whatever had never been acknowledged, personally i have never known it before. As a nemesis clan member, it wasnt very tough for me to arrange my challenges in order them to have 40 games if i knew of such an application would take place. We currently have 40 and 30 games based completed two challenges. We won both and now going into a 3rd one which is going to be based on 32 games. What the above idea suggests now, it says me to send my one of very glorious clan challenge into wastebasket. This is very non sense man :) The 30 game based one, we took it against I.B. and won 19 - 11. What is not reliable with this ?
You simply will ignore this challenge, thereby you will give additional points to I.B. and will clean some points from nemesis. No, you should not do this. Instead of doing this, count the challenge as 25-15 it s when you normalize the 19-11 score based on 40 games.
2./ In real life law suit, no new rule can fine any previous case !!! You should not cancel the previous challenges but must maybe set a rule for clans to have their clan challenges to have minimum 40 games to be valid starting from today.
3./ Assume i had my challenges based on 40 games, then 1 year later, someone is going to come and say that 40 is not reliable. Lets make it 60. Then what ? Should i again put my 40 game based clan wars in waste again ?

Mate, your point is excellent, just you are missing only one point. You should not ignore previous challenges especially 30 games series.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby Lindax on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:43 am

I personally think a minimum of 20 games is enough.

If it is decided that it will be 40 games, can you still take the results of 20+ game clan wars until now into account? I do not think it's fair that a change like that voids all results of clan wars with less than 40 games.

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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:53 am

Agreed, going forward would require a vote. I suggest waiting a bit to vote on this due to some things I have possibly in the works as a clan director.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby GrimReaper. on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:10 pm

just curious, why is waters fury ahead of us?
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:25 pm

GrimReaper. wrote:just curious, why is waters fury ahead of us?


I answered this already.
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=90907&start=30#p2111585
You need to face some decent clans.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Table updated to include overall win% and the record included in the calculation. There are several ties from the league sets. Also updated for the Gold-Silver-Bronze color suggestion received via pm.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby HardAttack on Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:52 am

Looking nice Jpcloet =D>
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby Scott-Land on Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:13 pm

Can you explain the W-L-T , Jp.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby Blitzaholic on Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:17 pm

Lindax wrote:I personally think a minimum of 20 games is enough.

If it is decided that it will be 40 games, can you still take the results of 20+ game clan wars until now into account? I do not think it's fair that a change like that voids all results of clan wars with less than 40 games.

Lx



20 games is a JOKE :roll:


jpcloet wrote:Agreed, going forward would require a vote. I suggest waiting a bit to vote on this due to some things I have possibly in the works as a clan director.



How can you agree?

Only weaker clans it benefits with luck dice and drop factors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The more game the better to even this out some, it's common sense :twisted:

Gimme a break, pfffft, if you all don't agree with 40, at least meet me in the middle and consider 30, geeeez, am i alone on this? Speak UP
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:19 pm

Scott-Land wrote:Can you explain the W-L-T , Jp.


W-L-T is the overall record of both challenges and the clan league 20 sets. Don't forget some of the results from the clan league are in there too.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:22 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:How can you agree?


I can agree that more games means a better understanding of skill. If we went to 30 as the min, how would you suggest dealing with the 16 sets in the Season 2 league? Multiply by 2 maybe?
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 2-2009]

Postby Blitzaholic on Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:54 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:How can you agree?


I can agree that more games means a better understanding of skill. If we went to 30 as the min, how would you suggest dealing with the 16 sets in the Season 2 league? Multiply by 2 maybe?



I would suggest the clan league to be separate and not effect the clan rankings at all.

only clan challenges of at least 30 games should factor into that, I suggest 40, but, I guess I could wiggle some.


The clan league as being separate is a bragging right for any and all who may not be in 1st place on clan ladder or rankings or may not ever get there, but at least they can say they won a clan league season once ;)
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby Scott-Land on Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:27 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Can you explain the W-L-T , Jp.


W-L-T is the overall record of both challenges and the clan league 20 sets. Don't forget some of the results from the clan league are in there too.


Is that divisional matches ? I honestly don't agree with rolling League into Clan War Results but if it's to get a more accurate assessment then so be it. BUT to roll in the win/loss record for 10 game sets ( I think that's what you're doing ) is terrible. Some of us pride ourselves being unbeaten in clan challenges. Granted if that loss came from 40 game league set but it's coming off 10 or possibly 20. It's not a clan challenge and we shouldn't be penalized for something we're not playing.

Blitzaholic wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Agreed, going forward would require a vote. I suggest waiting a bit to vote on this due to some things I have possibly in the works as a clan director.


How can you agree?

Only weaker clans it benefits with luck dice and drop factors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The more game the better to even this out some, it's common sense :twisted:


I'm right there with you Blitz. 10 / 20 games are not something they should consider.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby Bruceswar on Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:33 pm

I too have also said the clan league should never count towards this ladder. As for the minimum game count. 20 is OK for an entry level clan to get their feet wet. Most clans want to play 40 or more games, so that is not a problem with counting the lesser matches.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby ahunda on Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:39 pm

How about counting the results of an entire league season as one total instead as a couple of 10-20 game challenges ?

jpcloet posted in the thread of the current THOTA - DBC challenge, what result THOTA needs in that challenge, in order to gain any points for the ladder. Couldn´t the results of the league be calculated in a similar manner ?

- Calculate average strength / rating of opponents faced.
- Based on that, calculate result (wins - losses) needed by any given clan to gain points for the ladder.
- Calculate points won / lost for the ladder.

The result would then be based on 180 games against different opponents (for season 1). That should be enough to cancel out the luck factor.

In the ladder statistics we would then see official challenge results and league results as separate and different categories (adding another column for league results to that table in the first post), but both counting towards the overall ladder ranking.

Accordingly the 10-20 game sets of the league would then simply fall in a different category than official challenges. Clans could still pride themselves on their unbeaten challenges record. Just not unbeaten in league matches (I think, there is not a single clan, that did not lose at least one of these sets).

Some clans could then start teasing the big ones with their victory in a league match, the big ones could then indignantly refute this nonsense, because no one in his right mind could take such a small sample serious, and so the teasing & bragging & arguing can continue, and everybody is happy ... ;)

I just think, that the league is quite a major event in terms of clan competition at the site and shouldn´t be left out here. Each of us did play 180 competitive clan games there after all ...
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:46 am

I'll have to compare the calculations 2 ways.

1. Using the actual results
2. Using a fictional "Average Clan" of all the clans involved.

In theory, I don't think the results would change much, although, it will affect W-L-T by only 1 now instead of 7.

Do you figure out the fictitious clan at the beginning or the end? I think D1 would be ok at the beginning, D2 has a number of clans with not enough history (less than 1.00 reliability factors) and likely should be at the end.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby Blitzaholic on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:12 am

Scott-Land wrote:
jpcloet wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Can you explain the W-L-T , Jp.


W-L-T is the overall record of both challenges and the clan league 20 sets. Don't forget some of the results from the clan league are in there too.


Is that divisional matches ? I honestly don't agree with rolling League into Clan War Results but if it's to get a more accurate assessment then so be it. BUT to roll in the win/loss record for 10 game sets ( I think that's what you're doing ) is terrible. Some of us pride ourselves being unbeaten in clan challenges. Granted if that loss came from 40 game league set but it's coming off 10 or possibly 20. It's not a clan challenge and we shouldn't be penalized for something we're not playing.

Blitzaholic wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Agreed, going forward would require a vote. I suggest waiting a bit to vote on this due to some things I have possibly in the works as a clan director.


How can you agree?

Only weaker clans it benefits with luck dice and drop factors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The more game the better to even this out some, it's common sense :twisted:


I'm right there with you Blitz. 10 / 20 games are not something they should consider.



ty scott for speaking up.


I for one will NOT be playing in season 2 if clan league is counted towards clan challenges.
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Re: Clan Rankings - RPI Version [Updated July 18-2009]

Postby jpcloet on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:22 am

Would you be comfortable with disclosing 2 ladders?

RPI Clan Ladder - Challenges only
RPI Clan Ladder - Comprehensive
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