[Abandoned] - Switzerland

[pamoa]

Mod Note:Abandoned - If resurrected, this one must be checked again.


a Swiss map by a Swiss SWITZERLAND v05 new features : German cities bonus +7, red bg less bright, signature

Click image to enlarge.

previous versions v01 / v02 / v03 / v04

Switzerland is a landlocked alpine country of 7.7 million people. The establishment of Switzerland is traditionally dated to 1 August 1291. It is a federal republic consisting of 26 states, called cantons. Bern is the seat of the federal authorities, while the country's economic centres are its three global cities Zürich, Geneva and Basel.
Officially called the Swiss Confederation, the formal name in the four national languages is Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft in German, Confédération Suisse in French, Confederazione Svizzera in Italian and Confederaziun Svizra in Romansh and also Confoederatio Helvetica in Latin from which derives the country code CH

MAP DESCRIPTION
This map intend to represent the Swiss multiculturalism as well as it's crossroad position in Europe and it's reputation as a tourism destination in the Alps.
So we have the 3 main linguistic regions and the founding members for multiculturalism;
highways and the neighbouring foreign cities for the crossroad position;
and the main tourist resorts representing... tourism!
The cantons capitals and country main cities were used for the 3 main linguistic regions (see below the list).
The square form of the map is linked to the Swiss flag, one of the few non rectangular flag in the world.
In 1863 Henry Dunant also used a reverted version of it as the symbol of his newly created Red Cross organisation

47 positions no neutral
8 bonus groups

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
7 tourist resorts +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)

Fribourg/Freiburg and Bienne/Biel can contribute to both French and German bonus

for the starting territories xml I was thinking coding 3 groups of starting positions

Code: Select all

<positions>
 <position>
  <territory>Lugano</territory>
  <territory>Davos</territory>
  <territory>Gstaad</territory>
  <territory>Stutgart</territory>
  <territory>Lyon</territory>
  <territory>Genève</territory>
  <territory>Sion</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Bellinzona</territory>
  <territory>Verbier</territory>
  <territory>Sankt Moritz</territory>
  <territory>Vaduz</territory>
  <territory>Strassbourg</territory>
  <territory>Lausanne</territory>
  <territory>La Chaux-de-Fonds</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Locarno</territory>
  <territory>Zermatt</territory>
  <territory>München</territory>
  <territory>Milano</territory>
  <territory>Neuchâtel</territory>
  <territory>Delémont</territory>
 </position>
</positions>

show: Swiss cities

SUGGESTED / TO DO
-

DONE
- removing 1 tourist resort to stay at 47 starting positions
- adding the Simplon pass road from Brig to Milano so it is a bit more open in south
- work on bg

REJECTED
- giving auto-deploy bonus to a few of the major cities

show: POLLS

[galix]

Suisse est tres bien - j'espere jouer bientot

Gilles Alix

[Industrial Helix]

Nice start and definitely an interesting take on the country. I'll post more crits when I get some time.

[cairnswk]

pamoa, good start, an interesting slant although connected to some gameplay we have seen on similar maps with highway/city themes, however nothing wrong with that IMHO.
For me, the whole red background of the flag is simply too distracting, and should you keep that background, perhaps it needs to be toned down or covered with another layer that will make it less glaring.
I guess the bi-lingual towns of Bienne and Fribourg can contribute to either the french of German speaking? Yes?
Not quite sure what the theme is...there appears to be a number of combinations there.
Can i say, i hope this one gets finished, i recall that the last attempt became too much trying to please everybody! I hope you don't make the same call for this one.

[pamoa]

pamoa, good start, an interesting slant although connected to some gameplay we have seen on similar maps with highway/city themes, however nothing wrong with that IMHO.
For me, the whole red background of the flag is simply too distracting, and should you keep that background, perhaps it needs to be toned down or covered with another layer that will make it less glaring.
I guess the bi-lingual towns of Bienne and Fribourg can contribute to either the french of German speaking? Yes?
Not quite sure what the theme is...there appears to be a number of combinations there.
Can i say, i hope this one gets finished, i recall that the last attempt became too much trying to please everybody! I hope you don't make the same call for this one.

thanks for dropping in and commenting cairnswk
I also hope finishing this map
I'll do my best
all graphic issue will be treated after getting draft and gameplay stamps
Fribourg and Bienne can actually contribute to either French and German bonus
"This map intend to represent the Swiss multiculturalism as well as it's crossroad position in Europe and it's reputation as a tourism destination in the Alps."

[Blitzaholic]

It is a good start, I am not sure on that color of red for background? although it is different. May I ask what is the theme here, there does seem to be some scattered-ness. I will re-examine the bonus structure later.

[pamoa]

It is a good start, I am not sure on that color of red for background? although it is different. May I ask what is the theme here, there does seem to be some scattered-ness. I will re-examine the bonus structure later.

"This map intend to represent the Swiss multiculturalism as well as it's crossroad position in Europe and it's reputation as a tourism destination in the Alps.
So we have the 3 main linguistic regions and the founding members for multiculturalism;
highways and the neighbouring foreign cities for the crossroad position;
and the main tourist resorts representing... tourism!"

[RjBeals]

Nice start Pamoa. Already i think it's got more promise than the previous attempt. It definately feels Swiss.

I agree with cairns though - the red is just too much. My opinion of course, but it's just too distracting. I like the land map though. It's good that you keep the terrain mountainous.

But here's a thought.. I don't know if you ever venture over to cartographersguild.com - but they have some badass maps over there. There is a map called bretoria, that is one of my favs. It's a huge map (like 4000 x 5500 px), but I've clipped a portion of it and attached below. The guy created the mountains by taking a capture from google earth of the alps, then used a filter or 2 in photoshop to give them the current look (I think it was artistic > cutout filter). Then took some time to blend them into his map. I love the look he came up with, and I think it would work with your maps as well - seeing as how you are keeping the land relief.

Anyway - give it a thought - if you like, go over to cartographersguild and search for the map.

Click image to enlarge.

[Blitzaholic]

It is a good start, I am not sure on that color of red for background? although it is different. May I ask what is the theme here, there does seem to be some scattered-ness. I will re-examine the bonus structure later.

"This map intend to represent the Swiss multiculturalism as well as it's crossroad position in Europe and it's reputation as a tourism destination in the Alps.
So we have the 3 main linguistic regions and the founding members for multiculturalism;
highways and the neighbouring foreign cities for the crossroad position;
and the main tourist resorts representing... tourism!"

ok, thx, great idea

[sailorseal]

The edges feel a little rough, can you soften them?

[thenobodies80]

Hi pamoa.
The beautiful Switzerland, I don't know how many times i have been there!
I love the magnificent mountain landscapes that i saw in this country.
But let's talk about the map...
I like the development in terms of language and tourism, two key features of this country (although you should add the banks ).
Highways are difficult to hold, but the two bonuses should help (A1-german / A2 - italian)
You have 22 german territories, with a +3 bonus each set of 6... For example in Berlin1961 we have 15 russian territories with a +5 bonus for 8 territories. Maybe you could increase the number of required territories for this bonus and adjust the bonus you want to give.
Italian bonus is very easy, Bellinzona/Lugano are coded? And maybe add locarno? (3 italian/7 tourist). Anyway a +1 isn't a big problem if a player will not start with this bonus.
Foreign cities seem to be an unnecessary addition. (but i'm happy to see Milano on your map ).
I'm agree with others that you have to work on the background and maybe you should increase the opacity of land, on the white is almost invisible, althought it isn't a primary part of the map.The flag and the geographical map should give an exact location of your map, but rather to work together perfectly, they will disturb each other, creating some confusion.
Finally i think you can cut the Lake Maggiore ( 3/4 are italian ) along the country border.

On the whole is a good start, keep working on it!

thenobodies80

[pamoa]

guys
thanks for dropping in and commenting
I'm repeating
all graphic issue will be treated after getting draft and gameplay stamps

Anyway - give it a thought - if you like, go over to cartographersguild and search for the map.

I surely will

The edges feel a little rough, can you soften them?

work on that later

Highways are difficult to hold, but the two bonuses should help (A1-german / A2 - italian)
You have 22 german territories, with a +3 bonus each set of 6... For example in Berlin1961 we have 15 russian territories with a +5 bonus for 8 territories. Maybe you could increase the number of required territories for this bonus and adjust the bonus you want to give.
Italian bonus is very easy, Bellinzona/Lugano are coded? And maybe add locarno? (3 italian/7 tourist). Anyway a +1 isn't a big problem if a player will not start with this bonus.
Foreign cities seem to be an unnecessary addition. (but i'm happy to see Milano on your map ).

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11
I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position
but tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4
Foreign cities was added to emphasise the Europe crossroad feature and to reach 47 territories

[wcaclimbing]

will v2 be released soon?

[pamoa]

I need more comments on gameplay before working on graphics
but almost all comments were about the bg
my beautiful Swiss red flag bg
besides I have an awful lot of rl work

[ManBungalow]

I like the way the bonuses work, but I'd also like to see a few of the major cities giving auto-deploys and so on.

Although the regions are well spaced out, you'll need to draw a lot more land in to cover up the distracting background. You could probably have that flag as a transparent layer over the land instead of having the land transparent over the flag.

Oh, and those are original graphics, right ?

[Evil DIMwit]

I need more comments on gameplay before working on graphics
but almost all comments were about the bg

Maybe there's not that much wrong with the gameplay.

The only complaint I have: The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).

[pamoa]

Highways are difficult to hold, but the two bonuses should help (A1-german / A2 - italian)
You have 22 german territories, with a +3 bonus each set of 6... For example in Berlin1961 we have 15 russian territories with a +5 bonus for 8 territories.
Maybe you could increase the number of required territories for this bonus and adjust the bonus you want to give.
Italian bonus is very easy, Bellinzona/Lugano are coded? And maybe add locarno? (3 italian/7 tourist).
Anyway a +1 isn't a big problem if a player will not start with this bonus.

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11
I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position
tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4

I like the way the bonuses work, but I'd also like to see a few of the major cities giving auto-deploys and so on.
Oh, and those are original graphics, right ?

I don't like the idea of adding another bonus level with autodeploy
I think it isn't fitting with bonus for territories set concept
the map I used isn't original but as it is a draft you won't recognize it when map is finished

The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).

to be exact Italian speaking cities are 2 and both territories should be defended
but I guess you mean it is easy to hold all 4 southern cities with one defending territory so you have to conquer 4 to get +1
I was thinking about adding the Simplon pass road from Brig to Milano so it is a bit more open in south


it seems you guys think the bonus scale should be higher so here is my proposition

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)

[pamoa]

a Swiss map by a Swiss SWITZERLAND v02 new features : bonus structure, bg, short swiss history

Click image to enlarge.

[Scania N113]

I am actually a member of your group Le Clan. But I need to type all the things in English instead of French so as to make sure that all people understand.

I like plain geography map very much, and I would like to give you some suggestions for this map. Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

In conclusion this is a very decent map, and it has potential! I hope that my suggestions and ideas are useful to you.

[pamoa]

thanks for droping by and giving feedback

Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

actually it is called Switzerland because the real title on the map itself is Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera

Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

sorry but I won't use the red cross flag
as you probably know red cross was founded by Henri Dunant in Geneva and he used a reverted Swiss flag as emblem red cross on a white background
and this is a basic graphic choice I made for this map

Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

as said before foreign cities were added to explain the position of Switzerland in Europe as a crossroad
then I used the cities over 1 million inhabitants around Switzerland and added Vaduz for Liechtenstein
they are not located at their geographical position except Milano and Vaduz
Genova is on the Ligurian shore of the Mediterranean sea smaller than Milano and 3 time farer
Lyon is related to French speaking part of Switzerland as the nearest large city in France
you will found more Swiss French speakers who have been their than in Basel
München as capital of Bavaria on of the richest Land of Germany which whom Switzerland is making a lot of commercial exchange
Stuttgart and Strasbourg were chosen only because of their size and position on the north south European axis

Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

it is not so easy to hold 7, 10 or even 13 position in a game
the bonus is high because the resources you need to get them is high
maybe the German Speakers bonus should be lowered to +4

[Evil DIMwit]

The new bonuses look good. The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.

[thenobodies80]

The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road.

Agree.
The new background is nice. Good choice
About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200.
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

Bonuses:
Without considering the values of bonuses but only the number of regions required,

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11

Each 11 is perfect, only 2% of probabilities that a player starts with that bonus.

I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position

Those 2 starting positions are good: balance 1v1 games (both players will start with 16 regions) and the small bonus has to be taken.

but tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4

I think you should increase the number of regions required for tourist, french and foreign.
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think ).


Have a nice day

[Evil DIMwit]

[
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think ).

You mean, French any 5 and Foreign any 4. There wouldn't be enough for another bonus.
I haven't run the numbers, but would it help bring the starting drop rate down if, say, three of the French territories were in a start position set?

Edit: I went ahead and did run some numbers, and in order to get less than 10%, it looks like you'd have to either raise the bonus requirements to 6 each for French/tourist and 5 for foreign, or you'd have to implement more start positions. The latter, I think, would be far preferable: If for each bonus type you split them into two halves and make each half into a starting position set, your probability in a 3-player game of someone dropping a bonus for French and Tourist falls to less than 2%, and for foreign cities, of course, becomes zero.

[pamoa]

The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.

About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200.
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

you are both right about roads I already knew it but I will work on it when I have time

about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)

for the starting territories xml I was thinking coding 3 groups of starting positions

Code: Select all

<positions>
 <position>
  <territory>Lugano</territory>
  <territory>Davos</territory>
  <territory>Gstaad</territory>
  <territory>Stutgart</territory>
  <territory>Lyon</territory>
  <territory>Genève</territory>
  <territory>Sion</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Bellinzona</territory>
  <territory>Verbier</territory>
  <territory>Sankt Moritz</territory>
  <territory>Vaduz</territory>
  <territory>Strassbourg</territory>
  <territory>Lausanne</territory>
  <territory>La Chaux-de-Fonds</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Locarno</territory>
  <territory>Zermatt</territory>
  <territory>München</territory>
  <territory>Milano</territory>
  <territory>Neuchâtel</territory>
  <territory>Delémont</territory>
 </position>
</positions>

[thenobodies80]

I thought there were only two starting positions.

With the new infos, french and tourist bonuses are ok

So,
48 regions on your map
20 starting positions
No starting neutrals
20 germans (+2)
2 italian
6 foreign
8 tourist
6 french (+2)
4 founders
2 shared french/german

Players will start with a good numbers of regions in all games except in a 4 players, in which all players will start with 12 regions (a possible advantage for the first player). Anway, you can fix this later with the gameplay guys
french and tourist regions are no longer a problem but i'm still worried about the german regions.

about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3

I like the idea, but i think that also german should be given twice.
you have 28 regions not coded as SP
in a 1vs1 game each player has 10 SP and 9 regions. 10 are neutral .
Some examples:

• if the neutrals are all german regions (100%*):
  
  • you have 12 german regions and 6 not german.
  • only if each player will have 3 'not german' regions, each player will have 6 german regions.
  • If 'not german' regions aren't splitted equally a player will start with a +5 bonus
• if only 3 'not german' regions are neutral (75%*) :
  
  • you have 15 german and 3 'not german'
  • 1 player could have 2 'not german' and 7 german, the other player will have 1 'not german' and 8 german.
  • 1 player could have 3 'not german' and 6 german, the other one 9 german
• if the neutrals are half german and half 'not german' (50%*):
  
  • You have 17 german and 1 'not german'
  • both players will start with the +5 bonus
• if the neutrals are all 'not german' regions (25%*)
  
  • you have 18 german
  • both players will start with the +5 bonus

* percentage of german neutral

With a bonus assigned the first player could attack with 14 troops on a single region instead of 9 destroying the opponents, even before this one starts to play.
If i'm not wrong, you could assign the bonus twice (like french and tourist ), increasing the number of required regions to 10 (or 11) and then fix the bonus value.
Nobody will start with the bonus

Have a nice day