The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

[00iCon]

Holy Romans a Byzantines look like they have to fight each other for east Europe. Since the Byzantines have to put up with the Seljuks, we could throw in a boatload of English or French (although not historically accurate). Actually, why have so much to take in east Europe? (it just gives the Holy Romans too much potential)

[Kabanellas]

That’s why the 3 Zones from East Europe (Kingdom of Poland, Kindom of Hungary and Servia/Bulgaria) only worth 1 each.

I guess that as a Byzantine one could grab Servia/Bulgaria – though will create one more border (Larissa-Servia-Bulgaria, instead of just Larissa-Thessalonica). As a Holy Roman if you take Poland or Hungary you will be doubling your borders from 3 to 6 without gaining any real profit. Plus, almost all objectives are located in the Near East.

Would someone waste time and resources fighting in a no man’s land, leaving the really juicy stuff for others to take? I guess not.

[00iCon]

In that case, why have it there at all? You could get rid of bits of Russia and those others, and put in some historical facts where they were.

[Kabanellas]

Well, I thought about it.... but I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.

[Kabanellas]

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

Click image to enlarge.

[captainwalrus]

I think you still need some sort of bonus in the north eastern regions, or else there is really no need for it.
I don't know if you can have an autodeploy bonus that is recieved for holding 2 territories. Also, I would recomend like 7 nuturals on cyprus, and Tyer, mabey 5, since there is such an easy bonus one away from a starting position, it wouuld be so easy for the people who start at England or Paris.

[Industrial Helix]

Wonderful start to the map.

i do have some crits though.

The regions like kazar and early russia... do they yield a bonus? I find the circle with a color a tad difficult to read and coordinate with the rest of the map, might be me though.

Jerusalem migh tneed a little more than a swervy arrow. I took me a few minutes to figure out, but I think I get what's going on there.

The sea routes look a tad overly complex. I wonder if you might be able to clean it up with port symbols or something. I also think if you're going to give England the benefit of the channel, then places like sardinia or cyprus out to have the same benefit. Maybe... I'm still unsure but I thought it was something worth throwing out there.

I presume Tarsus can attack Melitene?

Anyway, those are my first observations. I love the graphics though, the pictures in the background are quite nicely added in. Keep up the good work!

[Kabanellas]

Thanks Walrus and Helix for those comments!

-As for the north eastern regions I’ve explained them before:

‘As for the Kingdom of Poland, Hungary and the Serbia- Bulgaria regions – I intentionally gave them a very small bonus... so they don’t get too appealing – the war should be fought in the Near East – let’s not forget it! Plus I don’t want to make the Holy Roman Empire to fat by easily gaining big bonuses from its neighbours.’

Also:

‘... I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.’

-As for increasing the Neutral troops.... that can be an option. Not sure if that will give a bit of an advantage to Saladin and the Seljuks....... But it seems acceptable – levelling all to 6 neutrals:

-Venice
-Jerusalem
-The Vatican
-Cyprus
-Tyre (your 5 in tyre seem good – just be coherent, it gives less bonus than Cyprus)
-Seleucia (I’d put 4 here)


Helix:

-the regions with lighter lines do not yield any bonus – sort of no-men land – just existing to be crossed if you desire to.

-the circle with the golden ring – it seemed to me the easiest and simpler way to mark game-play objectives on map as long with the legend.

-the sea routes: well, I’m not quite a supporter of port symbols unless they all connect between each other. Not the case here.... So those dashed lines (after a lot of testing – believe me:)) were the more direct way to make those overseas connections perceptible.

-as for the English Channel I’ve explained it before:

‘The all idea about the English Channel having 10 neutrals is just so that France and England cannot attack each other EASILY. That’s why I gave negative bonus to Ratisbone owner when invading French territories, and same to Paris owner when invading Iberian territories.’

‘(I didn’t give negative bonus the other way around – France to Holy Roman Empire. I prefer to make it easier to defend (just 2 territories))

Also, I didn’t give any negative effects between England-France because they were actually at war right before the beginning of the Crusade – still those 10 neutrals are hard to pass’

-yes, Tarsus can attack Melitene.

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

Ok, I see... I missed the bit where you posted expanded rules a few posts after the starting post. I'd suggest throwing that up there in the starting post.

Ok, the eastern regions hold no bonus then. I think therefore they should have no distinguishing colors perhaps or various shades of one color to designate geographical regions. I think the way it is set up now is slightly misleading.

As for the water lanes, if you're going to stick with it then I guess you're going to stick with it. Perhaps reduce the number of lines entering and exiting an island then? For example, two lines leave Toulouse. Couldn't that be consolidated to one line that branches out to two places... nevermind. I just drew over your map for simplicities sake:

Click image to enlarge.

I think I'm starting to get skeptical about gameplay here. If I get deployed France in a standard game, I'm going to immediately make a move to eliminate the player at Germany. Granted this gives the German player a second chance as he's got a starting point in the Mid East... I think that player would have unfairly started in a weak position.

Also, you have two Triploi's, which while historical, may cause confusion in regards to the objective. Fudge it and call it Cyrene or something?

Otherwise, I think with such complex gameplay its going to be difficult to predict the problems that arise. But anyway, keep it up. It will be resolved eventually. I think you've got a strong concept that will make a great map.

[captainwalrus]

You seem like your not going to change this but no one is ever going to attack half of the territories. At least combine some of the russian or polish territories just so it looks more apealing, since they aren't going to effect gameplay.

[Kabanellas]

Right! I’ve inserted a map with less water lanes. What do you think?

About the France-Ratisbone issue:

Remember that there are negative effects from having Ratisbone and any French region…. Being so, if a player starting in Paris got so lucky to take Ratisbone He would be put out of game… (he would receive the normal 3 but would have a negative effect of -4 – He would have no armies to deploy in the next round.)


As for the different colors in those regions, they exist just for historical coherence and show different ethnicities – one color stands for Russia, one for the Polovars, another for the Khazars, another for the Alans and another for Kassogs…. And it seems to me, it also gives a richer and detailed look to the map……

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

Looks good, I think it helps simplify things some. Athens/crete/attalia looks like it could a merging as well, and the black sea looks like two sea routes passing by... perhaps a clear merged dotted line would help. You could get rid of the cherson/kassogs line as well.

OK, good explanation. I didn't read the rules properly which is why I usually lose the first time I play a map

You ought to adjust the rule box so say the English channel reverts to neutral 10, rather than just neutral.

The problem I brought up before, I think also applies to Fez and Leon... unless the straits of Gibraltar aren't crossable, which historically is ridiculous. Perhaps if Grenada starts with a large neutral as well, which I can't seem to find in the previous posts whether or not it does.

And the regions with the white lines, I think they're there to designate optional territories in holding a bonus region... but not entirely sure. Is this correct?

[Kabanellas]

Hummm the thing in the Black Sea is that I need all those movements to be possible in the way they are…..

About Granada…. I think that for game-play reasons Fez should be able to reach to it, and then grab Tunis and make the Muslim Bonus… of course that you have a point there, one could try to eliminate the other.. if not in the first round (which seems hard) at least in the second….

But that’s a thought, having 6 neutrals could solve it…..

[Kabanellas]

Version 4 Updated

Inserted all neutrals that differ from 3.

(Helix) - changed the E.C. legend now

Click image to enlarge.

[captainwalrus]

I just thought of something. In an assasin game, it will be really hard if the person who starts with Ratisbone if their target has Paris. The -4 will be really hard to get through.

[Industrial Helix]

Yeh, changes to English channel look good, you might want to use the word "revert" over "turns back to" just to look all professional and that.

The border between Larissa and Athens is difficult to notice, I think because its so short. You might want to move it up some, or it might not even matter when you can see the men in the army circle.

I think England might be a little too easy to get a bonus. Maybe reduce it to 1.

I'd suggest changing the border of Tunis and Algiers so to fit the words Tunis in there better.

[Kabanellas]

Walrus... yes, you’re probably right – maybe not a suitable game for assassin mode – unless killers and victims start far enough from each other... (don’t know if the programming could solve that)

----------------

Helix, You’re right, far better now… Is it ok, ending with an ‘s’ (reverts)?

Changed the borders:
Moved up Athenian border, and redone Tunis.

As for England income, I could reduce it to 1. But wouldn’t it be a too much big difference comparing to France (4)?

[Industrial Helix]

Yeah, looks better. I wish you could add some more terrs. to England though... Midlands, Cornwall or something. It's I just don't think it would fit.

One option would be to raise the neutral on Wales to 4 or 5 or something as to make England work for the bonus while France and H.R.E. have to go all over the place.

Also, can't France simply break the HRE bonus whenever it feels like and suffer no consequences? It seems there should be a bonus deduction for that as well.

[Kabanellas]

Yes, I really have no Space to add one or two more provinces to England….

I’ve chose to make the Holy Roman Empire easier to defend, having just 2 borders. But, I thought about it too. Something worries me – if the HRE doesn’t have to defend its West borders he would have all its 6 troops free to use in the East…. (but I’m quite whiling to change this – Just think that maybe we should think a little more about it….)

Btw, I think that if was playing France or HRE – I’d go straight away for the Eastern bonus rather than making the zone bonus

Being in England, I’d make the zone bonus first, so I can deal with Cyprus later – the Eastern bonus is a little more difficult in this case, having 6 neutral troops to overrun in Cyprus (and let’s not forget the Byzantine pretensions on Cyprus).

[Kabanellas]

I’d like you guys to make an exercise, so I can figure out styles of play, and optimize game-play:

What would you do in the first 2 or 3 rounds if you were playing as any of those kingdoms/Empires:

The Kingdom of England (London)
The Kingdom of France (Paris)
The Holy Roman Empire (Ratisbone)
Iberian Kingdoms (Leon)
The Almohads (Fez)
The Byzantine Empire (Thessalonica)
Saladin’s Dominions (Cairo)
The Seljuks (Amasia)

Also, what are the starting positions that you find more and less favourable?

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

The Kingdom of England (London) - Take Wales for the bonus and invest all in securing Cyprus.
The Kingdom of France (Paris) - secure France and hope HRE doesn't attack, then go for Antioch
The Holy Roman Empire (Ratisbone) - Go for the Kingdom of Two Sicilies bonus and focus my efforts on getting the Vatican... then going for Selucia, presuming other players havent made great strides there in which case, I would make a move to Selucia sooner.
Iberian Kingdoms (Leon) (This is one of the worst positions to get, imo.) Go for the Spain bonus and try to kill the Fez player... Try to hold at Toulouse.
The Almohads (Fez) Try to kill the Leon player while maybe securing Tunis.
The Byzantine Empire (Thessalonica)- Secure Servia-Bulgaria Bonus, go for the Holy Land
Saladin’s Dominions (Cairo) - Go for Saladin bonus, Then Jerusalem bonus
The Seljuks (Amasia) - Go for Seljuk bonus.

Ok, after that theory exercise, I think the player of Fez should be moved to Tunis. It will threaten the HRE a bit more and leave Leon a chance to not get killed within the first few rounds.

[mattosaurus]

I really like the look of this map, simple, but with a lot going for it. A couple things: Its a bit hard to get the bonuses. but I don't think there's much you can do about that as it is. Also, there are two countries called Tripoli. Not that its that confusing, but you might need to alter the name a bit, especially for the XML. Other than that its a great map.

[Kabanellas]

Ok, that makes perfect sense Helix, coming to think of it – I’m moving Almohad starting position from Fez to Tunis.

Tripoli region in North Africa changed to Sirt (thanks mattosaurus for that remark), there really were two Tripoli. Actually there still are.

Click image to enlarge.

[whitestazn88]

Hey, whitestazn88 here for the preliminary review. I think this is the first time i've looked at the map, and its definitely pleasing to look at. Here's the things that i've noticed:

- the legend is a mess. I am not a fan of it at all. instead of all those words, a minimap might help.
- the knights templar bonus is out of place for me, and should be placed either closer to the actual places where those territs are so they can be easily found or in the legend.
- i like all the small bonuses and such, but are the 1 territory +1 bonuses going to be neutral starts? because this could lead to a huge discrepancy at the start.
- i don't like the positioning of the inset, but i understand that is the only place it can go... wish that could be changed some how... maybe make it smaller and put it under the actual place on the map if possible? (ie. switch it with the legend. that might give you more room to make a minimap legend with extras like muslims and knights)
- i just noticed the victory conditions.. i feel like that would be better suited in a larger area, it should be prominent, as that is the victory condition...
- good colors used

all in all, it is a nice map, i like the gameplay. but if you want me to approve of this getting forged at any time, that legend needs to be uncluttered.

[Danyael]

This map is look very nice
i agree with whitestazn88 about the legend it being very busy
as a colourblind some of the region colour samples in the legend look the same but have the areas name makes the confusion alot less of a factor
this being said i think better organized legend and the right size of font may do wonders in clearing up the legend

I'm still wrapping my head around the game play but i believe some single region bonus need to start as a neutral
to lessen the chance of awesome drops

graphically it looks awesome
but Prussia's outline is a little wonky
and is there any reason that the principality of Armenia Cilica doesnt match all the other thicker outlines
or are you still working on matching them up with the rest

keep up the good work