The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

[Kabanellas]

Kabanellas-Concept & Art
AndrewB-Code

Beta Updates

Updated XML:

http://bolonniy.com/CC/Third_Crusade_v9.xml

Large version

Click image to enlarge.

Small version

Click image to enlarge.

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This map is intended to be won by objectives achievement rather than by conquest.

- Up to 8 starting fixed positions randomly distributed by players + 50 regions to be randomly distributed by players (11 on the inset map)
- 1 killer neutral region (The English Channel)
- 5 victory points - though only 4 are needed to achieve victory

Previous Versions:

Version 1 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_Beta.jpg
Version 2 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV2.jpg
Version 3 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV3.jpg
Version 4 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV4.jpg
Version 5 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV5.jpg
Version 6 (A & B) - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV6_A.jpg
- http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV6_B.jpg
Version 7 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV7.jpg
Version 8 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_BetaV8.jpg
Version 9 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_Beta_V9.jpg
Version 9.1 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V9.1.jpg
Version 10 - http://www.freewebs.com/kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V10.jpg
Version 11 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V11-1.jpg
Version 11.1 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V111.jpg
Version 12 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V12.jpg
Version 13 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V13a.jpg
Version 14 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V14.jpg
Version 15 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V15.jpg
Version 16 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V16.jpg
Version 17 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V17.jpg
Version 18 - http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/Third_Crusade_V18_2.jpg


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29 Jun 2009, 12:14

I’ve been thinking on starting a design for a 3rd Crusade Map. It should feature the European countries that participated – England, France, Holy Roman Empire, The Vatican, Kingdom of The Two Sicilies, The Byzantine Empire, The Christian Kingdoms as a group (Portugal, Leon, Castile, Navarra, Aragon).

On the Muslim side: The Almohads, Saladin dominions, Seljuks

Victory could be achieved by taking and holding strategic places:

Jerusalem, Damascus, Tripoli, Antioch, Edessa + Rome
Or (for the muslim point of view)
Jerusalem, Damascus, Tripoli, Antioch, Edessa + Tunis (or Cordova)

[AndyDufresne]

Though not the 3rd Crusade, this attempt at a 1st Crusade map might be worth investigating.

Map Topic.


--Andy

[Kabanellas]

Great. Anyway - by the end of the week I'll have the 'fireworks draft' ready to see.

[Kabanellas]

Here it is, the map of The Third Crusade.

I know it's a little more than just a draft but I couldn't stop myself
Starting positions:
London
Paris
Leon
Fez
Ratisbone
Alexandria
Thessalonica
Amasia

Everything else starts neutral with 3 troops, except

The English Channel – 10 (turns back to neutral after one round)
Venice – 6
Jerusalem – 6
The Vatican – 6

All bonus where inserted with the intention of making a balanced game, though keeping the 3rd Crusade spirit...

Victory should be achieved by holding part of the Near East:

From the Christians point of view:

Jerusalem
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
The Vatican

From the Muslims point of view:

Jerusalem
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
Granada

Click image to enlarge.

K

[Kabanellas]

Here it is, the map of The Third Crusade.

I know it's a little more than just a draft but I couldn't stop myself

Starting positions:

London
Paris
Leon
Fez
Ratisbone
Alexandria
Thessalonica
Amasia

Everything else starts neutral with 3 troops, except

The English Channel – 10 (turns back to neutral after one round)
Venice – 6
Jerusalem – 6
The Vatican – 6

All bonus where inserted with the intention of making a balanced game, though keeping the 3rd Crusade spirit...

Victory should be achieved by holding part of the Near East:

From the Christians point of view:

Jerusalem
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
The Vatican

From the Muslims point of view:

Jerusalem
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
Granada

Click image to enlarge.

K

[captainwalrus]

I like this a lot! The boarders between the bonus regions in the northeast are mugh thinner than the other ones, which looks odd. The whole northern afica is fairly linerar, which means that you can hole 2 fairly big bonuses by holding 3 territories. What bonus region are the grey territories with slanted lines trough them in?
Constantanolpal has the a and l switched.
Bonuses- is it really only one for hungary? It should be like 4. Also, I am having trouble matching the colors on the map with the ones on the key. More different colors would help, I see only one green you could change something, mabey the one that is like northern egypt, I can't figure out what that is called.
Holding cyprus and england gives you +4! That seems like too much.

[Kabanellas]

I like this a lot! The boarders between the bonus regions in the northeast are mugh thinner than the other ones, which looks odd. The whole northern afica is fairly linerar, which means that you can hole 2 fairly big bonuses by holding 3 territories. What bonus region are the grey territories with slanted lines trough them in?
Constantanolpal has the a and l switched.
Bonuses- is it really only one for hungary? It should be like 4. Also, I am having trouble matching the colors on the map with the ones on the key. More different colors would help, I see only one green you could change something, mabey the one that is like northern egypt, I can't figure out what that is called.
Holding cyprus and england gives you +4! That seems like too much.

Hi Capt!

You’re right Constantinopla is the Portuguese version… It should be –Constantinople- I’ll change it

The regions that have smaller lines are so because they do not give any bonus.

As for the Kingdom of Poland, Hungary and the Serbia- Bulgaria regions – I intentionally gave them a very small bonus... so they don’t get to appealing – the war should be fought in the Near East – let’s not forget it! Plus I don’t want to make the Holy Roman Empire to fat by easily gaining big bonuses from its neighbours.

The territories with the slanted lines are bonus you can get when possessing them along with the mother land.... Ex, Corsica & Sardinia are intended to belong to the Holy roman Empire, though one can have the bonus from it (Holy Roman empire - 6 troops) without conquering them (Corsica & Sardinia). If the player also conquers them, he will get a bonus of 1 troop added to the mother land region.

England (with Cyprus) receives 4 troops auto-deployed in Cyprus – It’s the European country that receives more troops in the Near East, that’s because it was indeed the most active country in the 3rd Crusade – Richard Lion Heart took Jerusalem from Saladin.

[el-presidente]

the problem with having huge bonuses for the places near the near east and small or no bonuses for other places is that those other places get ignored entirely. Perhaps only +3 for hungary instead of what it should be as a +4, and perhaps s+2 for cyrus and england, which totals +4 since england has a bonus of 2 already. speaking of which , the +2 for england seems high also. especaly with killer nutural to protect it.

[Beko the Great]

Hello! First of all, congratulations on picking such an intersting theme and project. I'm glad to see something like this from a portuguese, too . Don't know if you have check my project about the 1st Crusade, but here's the link:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=77562&start=0

Now, about this one, I've got a lot of concerns and there are a lot of things you have to change.
I see there will be only eight starting positions and everything else is neutral, just like feudal war or Age of Realms, though bonus are just like classic shapes. One thing is kinda opposite to the other, i think.
Then, why is The English Channel worth of 10 neutral and turns always to 10 neutral? What's the point?
Then, there's an unfair thing about the goal objective (which I don't really like, but this is just a personal opinion). That is, Christians Must hold Jerusalem, Tripoli Antioch, Edessa and The Vatican and Muslims: Jerusalem, Tripoli Antioch, Edessa and Granada. Though Granada has 3 neutrals and Vatican 6.
Then about the territory bonus, why don't you group them into major groups? And beyond that you have a lot of diferent type of bonus which will just make the gameplay of this map really hard.

Just think a little on this and the playability of this map.

Cheers!

[Kabanellas]

Hello! First of all, congratulations on picking such an intersting theme and project. I'm glad to see something like this from a portuguese, too . Don't know if you have check my project about the 1st Crusade, but here's the link:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=77562&start=0

Now, about this one, I've got a lot of concerns and there are a lot of things you have to change.
I see there will be only eight starting positions and everything else is neutral, just like feudal war or Age of Realms, though bonus are just like classic shapes. One thing is kinda opposite to the other, i think.
Then, why is The English Channel worth of 10 neutral and turns always to 10 neutral? What's the point?
Then, there's an unfair thing about the goal objective (which I don't really like, but this is just a personal opinion). That is, Christians Must hold Jerusalem, Tripoli Antioch, Edessa and The Vatican and Muslims: Jerusalem, Tripoli Antioch, Edessa and Granada. Though Granada has 3 neutrals and Vatican 6.
Then about the territory bonus, why don't you group them into major groups? And beyond that you have a lot of diferent type of bonus which will just make the gameplay of this map really hard.

Just think a little on this and the playability of this map.

Cheers!

Hi, yes I’ve seen it. Andy introduced me to it!

(first of all – let me just say that every little thing here has a reason that’s supported by the historical background – and tries to use it to make it more veridical)

Having this said, let me try to explain my ideas and concepts:

For this map to make sense – positions should definitely start near the origins of each participating empire. Kinda like the New World map.

The all idea about the English Channel having 10 neutrals is just so that France and England cannot attack each other EASILY. That’s why I gave negative bonus to Ratisbone owner when invading French territories, and same to Paris owner when invading Iberian territories.

(I didn’t give negative bonus the other way around – France to Holy Roman Empire. I prefer to make it easier to defend (just 2 territories))

Also, I didn’t give any negative effects between England-France because they were actually at war right before the beginning of the Crusade – still those 10 neutrals are hard to pass

I don’t want to make it easier for Christian Kingdoms to be fighting against each other rather than be fighting in the Near East.

The Vatican has 6 instead of 3 just because it has an autodeploy bonus – so it should be a little harder to get. I expect it not to stay neutral for a long time anyway. So when the end comes it will not matter with how many troops it started anyway.....

The other game bonus are just to give a little edge to the game and a taste of all the historical background:

-The Templars played a very important role in this war, I want them to be mentioned
-The Constantinople – Rome bonus is there to support the idea that was always around from the part of the Byzantine Empire, to reunify the Roman empire.
-The Muslim bonus – exists by one side to keep the game balanced, on the other to relate to their Idea -by that time- of creating a big and only Islamic empire.

K

[neanderpaul14]

Wow that is very impressive for a first draft

The borders leading into the mini-map need to be clarified

I hope you make this I really think it's a great looking map.

[wemeetagain]

nice. will I be able to play this one?

[Kabanellas]

Thanks for the support!

Well... the mini-map is pretty much what it is.

In the south Ascalon borders Cairo, in the north Selinus borders Konya, Tarsus borders Konya, Melitene and Edessa (E.), and finally Coris borders Edessa (E.)

You can find more details in the link below:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=241&t=91007

[MCunha]

I like very much.
Graphics/ drawing/ final image... well done

Great job.

I would like to play this map

[00iCon]

I like the way you did London and Paris, otherwise they would have seemed out of action. But i can't see any borders, such as mountains etc. They are an integral part of strategy and without them the map seems "flat"

[Teflon Kris]

I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon

[Kabanellas]

Thanks for the support!

[Kabanellas]

I like the way you did London and Paris, otherwise they would have seemed out of action. But i can't see any borders, such as mountains etc. They are an integral part of strategy and without them the map seems "flat"

Thanks!

Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!

[Kabanellas]

I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon

Thanks DJ!

Actually that’s hardly a first draft I’ve got an all small sketch book filled up with drawings and intentions that lead to that map.

[thenobodies80]

Wow, your draft is very nice!

Clear ,tidy and thoughtful..i like it!

Some suggestions, critics and historical hints:

• Shields:
  - Kingdom of England (Richard I) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Richard_I_of_England_Arms.svg
  - Kingdom of France (Philip II) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:France_Ancient.svg
  - Holy Roman Empire (Frederick I) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_Arms-single_head.svg
  - Byzantine Empire (Isaac II) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle.svg
  - Ayyubids (muslims) (empire) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Ayyubid_Dynasty.svg
  - Seljuk Empire (muslims) (empire) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Seljuq_Empire.svg
  - Emirate of Granata (muslims) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:COA_of_Nasrid_dynasty_kingdom_of_Grenade_(1013-1492).svg
  - Kingdom of Sicily http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aragon-Sicily_Arms.svg
  - Knights Templar http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Cross_of_the_Knights_Templar.svg/600px-Cross_of_the_Knights_Templar.svg.png
• Colors: Iberian Kingdom and Holy Roman Empire are similar. Secondary territories like granada, balearics, corsica, cyprus, damascus territories are not easy understandable, for example balearics are a part of granada or cors? Rememeber that when you have to do the small map, everything has to be clear.
• troops placement: Jerusalem has a 1 troop autodeployed. Where? On the its shield or jerusalem is splitted and all armies are deployed on a single armies circle? (just to understand )
• Starting placement:Can you place the neutral armies/starting positions on the map? The map will be easier to understand. You can find the psd file with numbers here if you need.
• Sea routes: Cherson-trebisond-amasia-kassogs is a bit confusing. it's better not to have crossing lines. What do you think about the possibility to change malt-cyprus into mata-barca-cyprus (north africa is almost unassailable)
• Title: On the first look i thought you didn't it...is very small, but the problem is not the size itself, but the fact that the title is what gives to your map a precise historical connotation.
• Abbreviations: I think it's better to have a single place for abbreviations.
  
• Impassables: No impassables? For example Alps...

I'll be back with more comments soon.
Looking forward to your next update.
thenobodies80

[iancanton]

duplicate topic merged with original.

ian.

[Kabanellas]

Thanks a lot for your remarks. I’ll try some of those changes in the map and post them soon.

-Jerusalem (the city) has an auto-deploy feature that’s connected to its shield (only shields have auto-deploy). The Kingdom of Jerusalem (the Zone) gives a bonus of 3 and you can make it without having the city itself.

-as for the sea routes, the reason that the lines are crossing is that the seljuks can have instant access to the north of the Black Sea, and on the other hand the Byzantine Empire could move trough all his original possessions without having to overrun seljuk’s territories.
As for Barca, I’ll give it another border or I’ll just maybe do it in West Egypt – that would give Saladin more ground to protect….

-Abbreviations. Actually I couldn’t find any spot where I like to see them in the map design…. Being so:

E.C. – ‘English Channel’ appear right next to it
E. – ‘Edessa’ appears in the small map
N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?

-As for the impassables, (I'm not keen on start drawing mountains and rivers in this map - I really would prefer not to) I’ve explained it before, I'll quote it:

"Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!"

..ok I'll put my hands on the drawing now!

Thanks,
K

[thenobodies80]

N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?

I was thinking about something like this (or you need that space?):

show

Remember that any information you need to know to play a map should be easy to gather by looking at the map itself.

[Kabanellas]

Yes, you’re absolutely right. The only problem about that place is that you’ll overwrite the artwork… sadly…
I’ll try something else in the new version.

Something remained unexplained though, from your last post:

-The secondary territories, belong to the mother land (they have the same color but with a dash diagonal line) independently from one another. I’ll explain: If you have the Byzantine Empire you can have a total bonus of 9 (very hard to get though…). But you can gather the initial 5 from the motherland plus the +2 (7 total) from Trebixond or just +1 from Cherson (6 total)

[Kabanellas]

Click image to enlarge.

Ok, here it is Version 2 of the map:

-Iberian Kingdoms color now changed
-Saladin’s Dominions in North Africa have a new border. (Alexandria now borders Crete and Cyprus)
-Changed Navarra abbreviation ‘N.’ for the whole name in the map.
-placed starting positions

As for the shields I’ve tried the English and the French you’ve shown (actually I did tried them already) and kept the original ones – they look better in the map.
The Holy Roman shield is equal to the one you gave.



One thing worries me though, concerning the gameplay – could Saladin’s Dominions be too strong (6 troops), being near Jerusalem one can easily get the Jerusalem auto-deploy bonus plus the Muslim Bonus +2… Should I remove the Crescent from Cairo? or Drop down the bonus from the Zone?….. Historically, Saladin was strong, very strong in the region. And he took Jerusalem.