WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[thenobodies80]

Wow. Good job cairnswk,

the map on the whole works well, i have some few concerns:

• Panzer division and Rynok zones have the same colors, make confusion on the legend
• I think that the problem with underground attack is not in the way you explained it.
  I think that the drawn is clear and taxt legilbe too.But mixing them you make a bit of confusion. Try to separate images from text.
• A small thing, artillery on the north/left side of the city has a different shape.
• I like to see better buildings, but i think you will not have problem to do them
• About bonuses:
  • Orlovka is a +4 , i think it 's similar to Goemark or Yeremenko
  • Panzer division could be a +7/+8, not so many territories, but it's not easy to hold
  • All city, you can set all values, this one is impossible to hold.I think that if you can hold the city, you'll win the game in few turns, so why not a +9? Anyway i'm happy that city is so difficult to hold.
  What do you think about cairnswk?

[cairnswk]

You have 2 terts labeled S4

Fixed.

On the bombardments, a question for you. Lets take the artillery for an example. According to the legend artillery can bombard terts with artillery and infantry on it or is it artillery OR infantry. In other words, could Chulkov Artillery bombard Yeremenko Artillery or is it limited to bombarding AA1 and AA2 and if that is the case can AA1 and AA2 only bombard each other?

Yes that is correct.
Waterloo has the bombardments restricted to either side, do you think this should be the same.
I'd like to think that this map would free that restriction up, so that if you held Chulkov Artillery, and your opponent held the Yeremenko artillery, then it is feasible that you'd want to bombard the enemy.

In terms of the underground fighting, do the buildings all border two territories. I thought they were each in 1 specific tert until I saw the one straddling the Refineries and the Chemical Plant which clearly can be used from either side there. Is there a way to make the other building clearer that they are either in one tert or straddling two?

Yes, Entry to underground sniper fire is through terts bordering those buildings, so yes three buildings have two terts bordering them, and the pink building borders three terts.
The buildsing have to be redone at some stage, but i didn't want to do that too soon in case the concept changes, which i hope it doesn't.

The T in DTF isn't visible at the moment.

That should be fixed now, thanks.
Version 15 shortly.

[cairnswk]

Wow. Good job cairnswk,
the map on the whole works well, i have some few concerns:

Thanks and cool

*Panzer division and Rynok zones have the same colors, make confusion on the legend

Changed
*I think that the problem with underground attack is not in the way you explained it.

I think that the drawn is clear and taxt legilbe too.But mixing them you make a bit of confusion. Try to separate images from text.

Is V15 any clearer?

*A small thing, artillery on the north/left side of the city has a different shape.

I will adjust all those mil icons later.

*I like to see better buildings, but i think you will not have problem to do them

yes they will be re-worked.

*About bonuses:[*]Orlovka is a +4 , i think it 's similar to Goemark or Yeremenko

Changed

*Panzer division could be a +7/+8, not so many territories, but it's not easy to hold

changed to 7 for now, and that will change yet again later i guess.

*All city, you can set all values, this one is impossible to hold.I think that if you can hold the city, you'll win the game in few turns, so why not a +9? Anyway i'm happy that city is so difficult to hold.

Changed to +9, yes it will be hard to hold.

What do you think about cairnswk?

I don't understand this question. Are you asking me what i think, or something else...?

[thenobodies80]

I think that the drawn is clear and taxt legilbe too.But mixing them you make a bit of confusion. Try to separate images from text.

Is V15 any clearer?

i think it's perfect now.

What do you think about cairnswk?

I don't understand this question. Are you asking me what i think, or something else...?

What do you think about bonus values i suggested you ...

[captainwalrus]

the R# territories are actualy territories, not just connections, right?

[cairnswk]

the R# territories are actualy territories, not just connections, right?

yes they are armies. i have yet to possibly do something with them.


Version 15

Click image to enlarge.

[Danyael]

for colour blind issues i first the legend some look same but the name are good it each region that you can read the difference


kuporosnoya is the same colour as 62nd i almost called 62nd yeremenko but yeremenko colour is different enough that you can tell which is which (the territ named 62nd yeremenko might cause confusion but thats from not reading

so having kuporosnoya split from 62nd and people read there should be no confusion about those two
same goes with goemark and rynok

only major colour problem is gorodische maybe change to this



i used colour ad903a

as well i'm confused about the different colour outlines in the all city region do these correspond with the different regions with the under ground snipers ??

[whitestazn88]

looking really good cairns. it seems a lot less cluttered and more simplified, although still keeping with its complexity in gameplay. i like how this is going

[pamoa]

for me gameplay has really improved
bonus seems balanced
attack route to VVS remain unclear, can you attack from Russian headquarters AND neighbouring territories ?
and sniper legend should be formulated like this, maybe

sniper position are reached through the bordering territories of the same coloured buildings, they can only bombard target territories bordered the same colour

go on

[cairnswk]

looking really good cairns. it seems a lot less cluttered and more simplified, although still keeping with its complexity in gameplay. i like how this is going

Thanks whitestazn88

[thenobodies80]

Hi cairnswk

Underground attack legend is good now.

My last concerns :

Hospital & Mameyev Hill. They will start as neutrals?
Also, i'm thinking about the small Kuporosnoya...a lucky drop could cause an easy expansion from this zone to Goemark in few rolls.

Finally about the russian planes....i have no concerns about what they can attack/bomberdments routes ( anyway it's strange that russian headquarter could attack VVS planes)...but current setting could be annoying after some rounds.
I try to explain better my point of view.
Luftwaffe has a dedicated space, differently from russian planes that shared the space with the russian territories.
In this way a simple "plane to plane" bombardment could annihilate all three russian zone bonuses in all turns.

....you have a deserter on the sniper text on the legend

[cairnswk]

for me gameplay has really improved
bonus seems balanced
attack route to VVS remain unclear, can you attack from Russian headquarters AND neighbouring territories ?
and sniper legend should be formulated like this, maybe

sniper position are reached through the bordering territories of the same coloured buildings, they can only bombard target territories bordered the same colour

go on

Thanks again pamoa....i've changed the sniper legend to read
"enter sniper positions thru territories bordering coloured building; sniper -fire can bombard the same edge-coloured territories as the entered buildings"
and i think that's a good compromise between what you had and i want, plus it works in well with the digramatics which have changed again.

Still formulating the Russian to V V S aircraft thingy. I'm considering moving all the russian aircraft to a tert like the Germans...good idea?

Hi cairnswk

Underground attack legend is good now.

My last concerns :

Hospital & Mameyev Hill. They will start as neutrals?

Cool. They'll possibly start neutral, especially Mameyev, but i don't know about the hospital.

Also, i'm thinking about the small Kuporosnoya...a lucky drop could cause an easy expansion from this zone to Goemark in few rolls.

I can't give it any more than two bridges over the Tsarista River.

]quote]Finally about the russian planes....i have no concerns about what they can attack/bomberdments routes ( anyway it's strange that russian headquarter could attack VVS planes)...but current setting could be annoying after some rounds.
I try to explain better my point of view.
Luftwaffe has a dedicated space, differently from russian planes that shared the space with the russian territories.
In this way a simple "plane to plane" bombardment could annihilate all three russian zone bonuses in all turns.[/quote]
so would you be in favour of moving all the russian planes to a tert like the luftwaffe has?

....you have a deserter on the sniper text on the legend

Uh? Sorry i don't get that one?

[cairnswk]

Version 16.

1. Still to be done is the russian aircraft if people want that option to have them in one area.
2. Mixed up the pattern on the sniper tert targets and tried to make the legend clearer
3. New buildings
4. Tidied some icons like the artillery

Click image to enlarge.

[thenobodies80]

....you have a deserter on the sniper text on the legend

Uh? Sorry i don't get that one?

Nothing important...see the pic :

show

New buildings are nice, but i'm not a big fan of the new city layout....on the big image evrything is clear, but on the small it's could create some confusion...coloured borders were less intrusive. Now if i see the city i think:

pink building - pink zone
blue building - blue zone
yellow building - yellow zone
red building - red zone
and black zone? where is black building? and why on the legend bonus i have 6 coloured squares if i have only 5 colors on the city?
I think you did it more complicated than it is....old coloured borders were better and clearer (it's a personal choice )

[cairnswk]

....you have a deserter on the sniper text on the legend

Uh? Sorry i don't get that one?

Oh! Deserter removed

New buildings are nice, but i'm not a big fan of the new city layout....on the big image evrything is clear, but on the small it's could create some confusion...coloured borders were less intrusive. Now if i see the city i think:

pink building - pink zone
blue building - blue zone
yellow building - yellow zone
red building - red zone
and black zone? where is black building? and why on the legend bonus i have 6 coloured squares if i have only 5 colors on the city?
I think you did it more complicated than it is....old coloured borders were better and clearer (it's a personal choice )

Yes i put one too many options in the legend with the extra black square. I've removed that and re-loaded, pls refresh F5.
There isn't a black building. The black/dark gray areas of the city are sniper free, but are still included in the bonus +9.
I'll see what others think of the new city layout, i thought the borders might become confusing for the CB and have too many lines that players can't follow.

[pamoa]

frankly it impossible to understand your new city layout
keep the border line as it was
or find more distinctive colour and maybe draw some black streets is the doted line are very confusing

[lt_oddball]

Still formulating the Russian to V V S aircraft thingy. I'm considering moving all the russian aircraft to a tert like the Germans...good idea?


so would you be in favour of moving all the Russian planes to a tert like the luftwaffe has?

yes..! for the sake of clarity, equality.


Regarding sniper attack zones; Is it the idea/philosophy that snipers enter the colour building and move underground to the colour areas and snipe from there ? Or is it they enter the colour building and fire from the floors over that distance into the colour areas ?
If it is the last, aren't the distances a bit too far and blocked by too much rubble ?
If it is the first, could you make the rubble building into something that has an easy to recognize entry underground ?
Something like a sewer opening in which a figure is stepping in..


Why are german HQ2 and hospital so fully protected from neighbouring zones ? At least 2 entry zones is fairer I think.
(and shouldn't hospital be bombardable ? Easy target and Geneva convention thru the drain ?

[cairnswk]

frankly it impossible to understand your new city layout
keep the border line as it was
or find more distinctive colour and maybe draw some black streets is the doted line are very confusing

oh. i thought it would be easier

[cairnswk]

Still formulating the Russian to V V S aircraft thingy. I'm considering moving all the russian aircraft to a tert like the Germans...good idea?
so would you be in favour of moving all the Russian planes to a tert like the luftwaffe has?

yes..! for the sake of clarity, equality.

OK.

[cairnswk]

Regarding sniper attack zones; Is it the idea/philosophy that snipers enter the colour building and move underground to the colour areas and snipe from there ? Or is it they enter the colour building and fire from the floors over that distance into the colour areas ?
If it is the last, aren't the distances a bit too far and blocked by too much rubble ?
If it is the first, could you make the rubble building into something that has an easy to recognize entry underground ?
Something like a sewer opening in which a figure is stepping in..

Oh dear that's a big request for the building entry.
But yes, the later is the general idea. And i have just worked out how to alleviate the idea i was having with this.
I was thinking that the entered terts bombarding the neighbouring terts for sniper-fire would be the same, but it isn't. Stupdi me. If course if the sniper can only bombard from S# terts then of course they are going to be aboe to bombard the neighbouring terts. I'll fix that up. Probably entale a re-arrangement of the coloured terts.

Why are german HQ2 and hospital so fully protected from neighbouring zones ? At least 2 entry zones is fairer I think.
(and shouldn't hospital be bombardable ? Easy target and Geneva convention thru the drain ?

The German HQ can have two entrances if you want or feel it is needed.
But let's talk more about the hospital, and possible things that could be done with it.
Ideas anyone?

[thenobodies80]

About russian airplanes, if you'll find the space, have them in a separate place, like german ones, could be good option. But don't add more russian airplanes, because russian had less planes than germans in the real battle.
German HQ with two entrance is a good idea.
About Hospital i think you can leave it as it is about entrances...I'm of the opinion that it could be a starting neutral and have the +1 bonus as an autodeploy.Autodeploy can simulate the treatment received by wounded in the hospital.

( I don't know if Russia already subscribed the Geneve Convention in those years... )

[cairnswk]

About russian airplanes, if you'll find the space, have them in a separate place, like german ones, could be good option. But don't add more russian airplanes, because russian had less planes than germans in the real battle.
German HQ with two entrance is a good idea.
About Hospital i think you can leave it as it is about entrances...I'm of the opinion that it could be a starting neutral and have the +1 bonus as an autodeploy.Autodeploy can simulate the treatment received by wounded in the hospital.

( I don't know if Russia already subscribed the Geneve Convention in those years... )

Version 17.
1. Same number of Russian planes moved to one place as requested.
2. Sniper terts re-arranged and re-coloured back to original format
3. Hospital left as is, but let's talk more about that. I like theonebodies idea for the hospital but let's hear from others, if they have anything to offer.
4. Two terts not yet named, still searching for those appropriate.

Click image to enlarge.

[lt_oddball]

Version 17.
1. Same number of Russian planes moved to one place as requested.
2. Sniper terts re-arranged and re-coloured back to original format
3. Hospital left as is, but let's talk more about that. I like theonebodies idea for the hospital but let's hear from others, if they have anything to offer.
4. Two terts not yet named, still searching for those appropriate.

1. good. But for me i'd say the amount of german plane locations 8 is a bit too much...If you make the germans 4 and the soviet 2 then there is still enough air superiority (double) and you save space on the map for possible other things lateron.
German air superiority was primarily in the beginning (concentration at blitz point), the "dry" season..at winter (apart from flying less overall) there wasn't so much a superiority (as most of the luftwaffe was deployed/distributed elsewhere on the front...only the quality of german pilots made the difference).

2. So you agree that sniping from the building could only shoot as far as the next terr. which is the same as attacking the next terr. (only benefit is sniper bombardment win means no deployment of 1 army there)..
So the idea is back to the sewer thing, but you couldnot go too far.
Ok here's the deal:
From a sniper terr. A you can do a normal attack to the next terr. B (as with infantry, conquer), but also do a sniper bombardment to the terr. C behind the first terr. B (so as to represent shooting from hidden sneaky places from sewers or whatever in terr. B to troops in terr. C.).
In this light/concept: blue is good, red is good, yellow is good, but pink hmmmm meat combine though behind Barrikady west is a bit far (you neither shoot on station no 1 from the red sniper )
%%%%%Sniper Rubble icon; superimpose on the rubble building a black floor hole(horizontal at an angle) with a bit of a ladder sticking out. That should give the right impression. %%%% second thought: not enough space to draw..so drop that thought.

3. autodeploy +1 on hospital is good. starting neutral is necessary (3 neutrals?).
But there should be a back opening (295 div), and it should be bombardable from a plane.
One of the 2 entrances must be an infantry (295 div) so that it can be bombarded by artillery.
(now with the panzer in front it is sealed off so tight,,whereas such a hospital building is so easy to bombard as every artillery crew knew exactly where the building was).

4. that's for someone else to look for.

[cairnswk]

....
1. good. But for me i'd say the amount of german plane locations 8 is a bit too much...If you make the germans 4 and the soviet 2 then there is still enough air superiority (double) and you save space on the map for possible other things lateron.
German air superiority was primarily in the beginning (concentration at blitz point), the "dry" season..at winter (apart from flying less overall) there wasn't so much a superiority (as most of the luftwaffe was deployed/distributed elsewhere on the front...only the quality of german pilots made the difference).

OK before i go changing the number of german planes, two things:
1. do others agree with this
2. do you have something in mind for that space on the map for possible other things later on?

2. So you agree that sniping from the building could only shoot as far as the next terr. which is the same as attacking the next terr. (only benefit is sniper bombardment win means no deployment of 1 army there)..
So the idea is back to the sewer thing, but you couldnot go to far.
Ok here's the deal:
From a sniper terr. A you can do a normal attack to the next terr. B (as with infantry, conquer), but also do a sniper bombardment to the terr. C behind the first terr. B (so as to represent shooting from hidden sneaky places from sewers or whatever in terr. B to troops in terr. C.).
In this light/concept: blue is good, red is good, yellow is good, but pink hmmmm meat combine though behind Barrikady west is a bit far (you neither shoot on station no 1 from the red sniper )
%%%%%Sniper Rubble icon; superimpose on the rubble building a black floor hole(horizontal at an angle) with a bit of a ladder sticking out. That should give the right impression. %%%% second thought: not enough space to draw..so drop that thought.

OK Meat combine can be removed as a sniper target tert if that is too far. No probs.
The sniper bombardment from terr A to terr C has some merit but in effect is no different than the cavalry on Waterloo but without the attack component.
I wanted something different here to represent this sniper stuff. That is the idea of building the four sniper terrs into the sides of the map. If there was more space you could insert the sniper terrs into the coloured buildings terrs on the main map, but i'm not prepared to distort the map to accommodate that idea. I quite like the idea of having the four snipers appear as in the buildings around the edge of the map. Also having the buildings on the map gives some atmosphere to the map even if the colours are nowhere near the real deal.

3. autodeploy +1 on hospital is good. starting neutral is necessary (3 neutrals?).
But there should be a back opening (295 div), and it should be bombardable from a plane.
One of the 2 entrances must be an infantry (295 div) so that it can be bombarded by artillery.
(now with the panzer in front it is sealed off so tight,,whereas such a hospital building is so easy to bombard as every artillery crew knew exactly where the building was).

autodeploy, starting 3 neutrals i can do.
OK, thinking about it, 295 Div attack is also doable.
So are you saying that the Panzer unit in front of the hospital should be changed to infantry?
And what should be bombardable from a plane - the infantry units or the hospital?
I'm not in favour of having the hospital bombardable from the plane. Why would either side want to bombard the hospital when it would come in handy for their owns troops if they controlled it?

[lt_oddball]

autodeploy, starting 3 neutrals i can do.
OK, thinking about it, 295 Div attack is also doable.
So are you saying that the Panzer unit in front of the hospital should be changed to infantry?
And what should be bombardable from a plane - the infantry units or the hospital?
I'm not in favour of having the hospital bombardable from the plane. Why would either side want to bombard the hospital when it would come in handy for their owns troops if they controlled it?

Being a hardcore bloodthirsty enemy you wouldnot allow the opponent to have a peaceful place to recover his wounded troops.
Stalin didnot sign the geneva convention and hitler made use of that (not that it would differ if Stalin had signed it...).
So if you control some artillery elsewhere on the map and you feel that the player controlling the hospital is having a disproportionate benefit, then this is a realistic option to annoy/temper him.
So a plane bombardment on the hospital.
for the (two) entries in front/back of the hospital , I'd say have one of them bombardable by artillery..so to represent a softening up for the advance of your own (or befriended) infantry troops fighting in that direction.
So one entry is infantry (= arty bombardable) and the other can stay a panzer (not arty bombardable).(see the situation around the german HQ1 and 2 ..those are fine..)


Regarding autoreduction of troops:
I gave it a thought and here's what comes close to your original idea:
The R01 to R10 crossings are territories , right ?
Let THOSE territories return to 1(or 2? or 3?) neutral immediately after a player's turn.
(worse than -1 deterioration, but there is a reason;).
The rivercrossing was a dangerous threshold that you had to take in order to be active on the other side of the river.
NO-ONE would ever leave his troops stationary in the river being sitting ducks.
In terms of gameplay: you can't conquer a R01 territory and stay there and build up your troops for a number of turns (as if days or weeks in real time) just long enough to finally attack the enemy riverbank troops.
Once you attack a R01 terr. you must continue to the other side or die trying.
technically, that would mean a one direction attack line... maybe a bit too hard ?
If you like that thought than I would suggest to make the center stalingrad river crossings going from east to west (as the bolshevists did ), whereas the outer river crossings should go from west to east (as the germans would not be so stupid to go in the line of fire).