Demonfork...is this farming? [cleared]

[demonfork]

Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

The unwritten rules were written to include any obvious behavior which is gross abuse, that is not specifically covered by the rules. The specific rule that you are refering to is in another thread and was written to explicitly protect new recruits, but that does not mean it is ok to farm new players. That is why the rule says new players, and not new recruits. The unwritten rules have evolved with CC over time, to adjust to new situations and new practices. Click on rules...it says nothing about new recruits...only farming new players.

It is you who are missing the point of this, not me. I fully understand that you think its ok to farm players with 6 games, but Im telling you that it may very well be considered gross abuse of the game, as many behaviors not specifically listed have been in the past.

I am well aware of the thread which is 6 months old that originally dealt with farming for the first time, but that does not in any way mean its ok to target new players, which is why its against the rules. Your interpretation is obviously different, but that does not mean its correct. It may be correct, and you may very well be able to attack all the new players you want, once they play that 5th game, but that is not necessarily true.

You tell me, what the f*ck is a "new Player" if it means anything other than "new recruit"

???

what is it?

[Timminz]

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

It's true. Higher ranked people know better. Anyone starting a casual 1v1 freestyle game, obviously does not understand how to successfully play casual 1v1 freestyle. For someone who has mastered the intricacies of the game, it's no challenge to beat someone like that. Some people are looking for the least challenging way to gain points, while others look for a challenge in each, and every game. As of yet, chasing easy wins like this is not against the rules.

[demonfork]

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

It's true. Higher ranked people know better. Anyone starting a casual 1v1 freestyle game, obviously does not understand how to successfully play casual 1v1 freestyle. For someone who has mastered the intricacies of the game, it's no challenge to beat someone like that. Some people are looking for the least challenging way to gain points, while others look for a challenge in each, and every game. As of yet, chasing easy wins like this is not against the rules.

I just beat the snot out of AAfitz 10 mins ago in a fs 1v1 game..

He was easier to beat than most lower ranked players I have played against.

beating him was no challenge, should I get in trouble for beating him too?

[AAFitz]

This is starting to get annoying, it was cute at first, now it's just getting old.

Fact #1

I have played against 4 new recruits in the last 800 games (since the new rule on Jan1). Could this ever on any planet under any circumstance be considered "the systematic targeting of new recruits"?

Fact #2

You have played against 14 new recruits in the same time frame, almost 4x as many as I have!!!!

How do you have the audacity of accusing me of targeting new recruits when you have played against 4x as many as me in the same fucking time frame!



This shit has gone on long enough, can a mod pleas put an end to this!!??!!

Im simply answering your questions. I make no other claim except that you may be braking the rules. Even if you are, I suggested nothing more than making you aware of it, and having you stop targeting new players which it seemed you were doing. Youre the one losing your temper, and making perhaps the most ridiculous counter accusation CC has ever seen. (I do thank you for that one though...my favorite thread to date.) I does do your case some harm though... If having 14 new recruits join my games over 6 months in over 300 games is farming, then you joining a bunch of new players all together must certainly be.

In any case, if it turns out that its just fine to target as many new players that have played a few games, but more than 5, thats great. You have nothing to worry about, and you can carry on systematically targeting new players that arent new recruits. I certainly wont care. I didnt care that much to begin with.

You might want to watch your flaming though.. Flame wars was removed, and its against the rules to flame in CC now.

[demonfork]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

[AAFitz]

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

It's true. Higher ranked people know better. Anyone starting a casual 1v1 freestyle game, obviously does not understand how to successfully play casual 1v1 freestyle. For someone who has mastered the intricacies of the game, it's no challenge to beat someone like that. Some people are looking for the least challenging way to gain points, while others look for a challenge in each, and every game. As of yet, chasing easy wins like this is not against the rules.

I just beat the snot out of AAfitz 10 mins ago in a fs 1v1 game..

He was easier to beat than most lower ranked players I have played against.

beating him was no challenge, should I get in trouble for beating him too?

Ive played 6000 games. Its safe to say Im not a new player. This is only about farming new players.

Do enjoy bragging about your incredible win though. Dont mention I was only able to kill one territory on turn one though. It might take away from it...

Send me as many World games as you want though.. Ill join every single one of them.

[AAFitz]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

A new player would be one that has been here a very short time, or has played very few games. This is subjective of course, and open to interpretation, but so are many of the rules. The Unwritten rules are there to address such situations. The "systematic farming of new players" was added to the rules only 6 months ago in fact. Now, in your case, I saw that you had joined at least 7 new players, and at least one new recruit over a very short period of time. They all had less than 30 games, and most had much less, especially the guy that had 2. To me this seemed like the "farming of new players" which is listed as a gross abuse of the game, on the rules section of the forum. Heres the link:

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

Now, obviously I know the mods make these decisions, which is why I posted the title as a question, and still simply do not know if its considered cheating or not. Some players seem to think it is, some do not. If its not against the rules, then you are fine. Its as simple as that. In the same way, if they think me setting up 300 world games over 6 months, and having the occasional new recruit join is farming than so be it. Hell, over the last few days, ive set up over 30 of them, and only one joined...so Ill assume it wont be deemed as "targeting new players" Not my call either way though.

Now, Ill assume that perhaps you think because ive been here so long, and play so much, that I actually do know everything about the rules, and that this was some kind of personal attack, but as I said from the very beginning. I stumbled on your game page, I was surprised to see you joining a bunch of new players in a row, so I posted them, all with 30 games or less, and made the thread. I ended up there from some ratings or something silly. It was only accidental that I saw it.

So, I saw the rule on the rules page about not farming, and asked if you were farming and if it was against the rules. It seems to me it is, and to many, but the mods make the decisions, and if they are fine with it, it sure doesnt matter to me. 6 months ago, you could theoretically even target new recruits as much as you wanted, and It didnt bother me.

[demonfork]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

A new player would be one that has been here a very short time, or has played very few games. This is subjective of course, and open to interpretation, but so are many of the rules. The Unwritten rules are there to address such situations. The "systematic farming of new players" was added to the rules only 6 months ago in fact. Now, in your case, I saw that you had joined at least 7 new players, and at least one new recruit over a very short period of time. They all had less than 30 games, and most had much less, especially the guy that had 2. To me this seemed like the "farming of new players" which is listed as a gross abuse of the game, on the rules section of the forum. Heres the link:

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

Now, obviously I know the mods make these decisions, which is why I posted the title as a question, and still simply do not know if its considered cheating or not. Some players seem to think it is, some do not. If its not against the rules, then you are fine. Its as simple as that. In the same way, if they think me setting up 300 world games over 6 months, and having the occasional new recruit join is farming than so be it. Hell, over the last few days, ive set up over 30 of them, and only one joined...so Ill assume it wont be deemed as "targeting new players" Not my call either way though.

So you admit that there is no official guideline for what a "new player" is outside it meaning "new recruit" which is very clearly defined.

So new player could be someone who has been here for only a month, or maybe a new player means someone who has only played 50 games or less, who knows?!!

Furthermore, are you suggesting that every time that I join a game against a private , I must first check to see how many games they have played or how long they have been here so I can judge whether or not they fit into this arbitrary category of "new player"?

It is obvious that "new player" means "new recruit" to suggest otherwise would be absurd.

I have played 4 new recruits in 800 games, you have played 14 in 300 games, if I am guilty of targeting new recruits then you certainly are as well.

[AAFitz]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

A new player would be one that has been here a very short time, or has played very few games. This is subjective of course, and open to interpretation, but so are many of the rules. The Unwritten rules are there to address such situations. The "systematic farming of new players" was added to the rules only 6 months ago in fact. Now, in your case, I saw that you had joined at least 7 new players, and at least one new recruit over a very short period of time. They all had less than 30 games, and most had much less, especially the guy that had 2. To me this seemed like the "farming of new players" which is listed as a gross abuse of the game, on the rules section of the forum. Heres the link:

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

Now, obviously I know the mods make these decisions, which is why I posted the title as a question, and still simply do not know if its considered cheating or not. Some players seem to think it is, some do not. If its not against the rules, then you are fine. Its as simple as that. In the same way, if they think me setting up 300 world games over 6 months, and having the occasional new recruit join is farming than so be it. Hell, over the last few days, ive set up over 30 of them, and only one joined...so Ill assume it wont be deemed as "targeting new players" Not my call either way though.

So you admit that there is no official guideline for what a "new player" is outside it meaning "new recruit" which is very clearly defined.

So new player could be someone who has been here for only a month, or maybe a new player means someone who has only played 50 games or less, who knows?!!

Furthermore, are you suggesting that every time that I join a game against a private , I must first check to see how many games they have played or how long they have been here so I can judge whether or not they fit into this arbitrary category of "new player"?

In answer to your last question, yes. I certainly do. CC want to stop the farming of new players.

On the first, I admit there is no official definition listed, but that this is why it is an unwritten rule, and purposefully open to interpretation. It is arbitrary to some degree, but so are many of the rules, including flaming, game chat, deadbeating, and farming... The rules have always been like this, and been interpreted and based on the common sense of the player to some degree. If youre joining all games with guys who played 2 6 10 and 20 games, then its not arbitrary however, and is clearly new players. Since you were the one joining them, and not vice versa, the systematic targeting is simply obvious. You didnt accidentally end up in the games. You joined them. I certainly didnt mention anything about 50 games and didnt post any that you played less than 30. Farming is a subjective thing, and the rules cover gross abuse of them. The rules have always been this way, and only are typically enforced when someone is found to be doing something wrong. Farming rules came after farming, not before. All of this is also the reason why I posted it as a question. To me it seemed like it might be against the rules. Its obviously against the idea behind them, and its the pure definition of farming, even if perfectly legal either way.

None of this is my call though. I only posted my opinions and asked the question. The rest of it is up to the mods, as it always is.

[AAFitz]

It is obvious that "new player" means "new recruit" to suggest otherwise would be absurd.

On this one, I actually think to suggest that a "new player" must mean "new recruit" would be absurd.

If its a gross abuse of the game to target players with 5 games, its certainly still a gross abuse of the game to target players with 6 games. The fact that they lose the ? doesnt mean joining them is not farming. It does leave it up to interpretation, but its hardly a stretch.

[demonfork]

It is obvious that "new player" means "new recruit" to suggest otherwise would be absurd.

On this one, I actually think to suggest that a "new player" must mean "new recruit" would be absurd.

If its a gross abuse of the game to target players with 5 games, its certainly still a gross abuse of the game to target players with 6 games. The fact that they lose the ? doesnt mean joining them is not farming. It does leave it up to interpretation, but its hardly a stretch.

I'm done trying to argue logic with you, it obviously escapes you.

To steal a phrase from Zbigniew Brzezinski, your understanding of the rules is "stunningly superficial", hopefully a mod can put a quick end to this which hunt.

[AAFitz]

It is obvious that "new player" means "new recruit" to suggest otherwise would be absurd.

On this one, I actually think to suggest that a "new player" must mean "new recruit" would be absurd.

If its a gross abuse of the game to target players with 5 games, its certainly still a gross abuse of the game to target players with 6 games. The fact that they lose the ? doesnt mean joining them is not farming. It does leave it up to interpretation, but its hardly a stretch.

I'm done trying to argue logic with you, it obviously escapes you.

To steal a phrase from Zbigniew Brzezinski, your understanding of the rules are "stunningly superficial", hopefully a mod can put a quick end to this which hunt.

by 'witch hunt' do you mean :" Demonfork :is this farming?" with a few games listed and absolutely no suggestion of any kind of punishment???? I am sorry you took this so personally, and think Im out to burn you at the stake, but I simply wanted to know if it was farming or not, and against the rules.

The most that could ever come out of this thread would be, dont join so many new players, or...you can join new players.

I think its your understanding of the rules that is superficial however, especially the flaming ones ... Any gross abuse of the game has been used many times on CC. Systematically farming new players is specifically listed as being against one of the rules. Right now, it is specifically against the rules to join lots of new recruits, however, it is my opinion, that it is also against the rules to join lots of new players as well. That of course would be decided on a case by case basis, just like many other rules are, and always have been.

In any case, if this caused you as much pain as it seems to have, I apologize. I for one enjoyed the thread you made for me.

[alster]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

A new player would be one that has been here a very short time, or has played very few games. This is subjective of course, and open to interpretation, but so are many of the rules.

As you know (from this thread and others), I'm not buying the new player argument. On the one hand, it is correct. The text of the rule (and the ordinary meaning of the words making up the text and its context) is what matters and nothing else. On the other hand, I think it's to be preferred if "new players" are construed as new recruits (as in the farming-is-not-cool announcement). The benefit is obvious, it's an objective standard compared to, as you point out, the subjective standard of what a new player is or can be. Makes it easier to follow the rule. And don't forget, the "systematic" prerquisite is a subjective one that is being evolved by the hunters/mods. Enough to have one subjective part of the rule, two just creates too much insecurity.

[AAFitz]

AAfitz...

What is a "new player"?

please point me in the direction of where I can find out this information.

A new player would be one that has been here a very short time, or has played very few games. This is subjective of course, and open to interpretation, but so are many of the rules.

As you know (from this thread and others), I'm not buying the new player argument. On the one hand, it is correct. The text of the rule (and the ordinary meaning of the words making up the text and its context) is what matters and nothing else. On the other hand, I think it's to be preferred if "new players" are construed as new recruits (as in the farming-is-not-cool announcement). The benefit is obvious, it's an objective standard compared to, as you point out, the subjective standard of what a new player is or can be. Makes it easier to follow the rule. And don't forget, the "systematic" prerquisite is a subjective one that is being evolved by the hunters/mods. Enough to have one subjective part of the rule, two just creates too much insecurity.

I completely agree. It might not be systematic, they might not be considered new players, and it might not be considered farming. However, I saw him joining a bunch of new players right in a row, so it seemed he was systematically targeting new players, so I asked if it was farming. I didnt look at one game he set up, because anyone can join those, and I dont think they matter. But at the time, it seemed he was just hunting for new players to farm. The rules have always been interpreted liberally, but leniently. Before 6 months ago, there was no rule against it at all. It was implemented to address players farming the new players. They stopped it for the new recruits, because those were the main ones being targeted, but to suggest they dont want people being systematically farmed at 4 games, but think its perfectly fine at 6 games is ridiculous.

The farming rules were meant to stop the farming of new players before they got a chance to learn the game, and to not inflate the scoreboard to some degree by the farming of them also. To me its fairly obvious that anyone hunting down the newest players is still farming new players, and just trying to get by from a techincallity, and clearly could be guilty of grossly abusing the game.

Clearly the rules allow for the possibility for someone to be joining lots of new players and being warned for farming. The point of the rules have always been to stop gross abuse of the game. The question here, and it was just a question....is what demonfork doing gross abuse, and was it farming. Now, even if it is, certainly there would only be a warning to not join so many new players. I never suggested it was so blatent to require more action, and am still not even suggesting there needs to be a warning...I was only asking if there needed to be one.

We all know that CC is adept at stopping the gross abuse of game, and while honestly, I dont think right now demonfork went way over the line, I do think that if he keeps joining the newest players, which did include the occasional new recruit, then its clear he is trying to farm new players. These werent old games I was looking at, and they all came up on his currrent games page all in one place. Its not a far cry to call that systematic, unless he accidentally just joined them. Again, those that joined him are irrelevant even if they were new recruits, since he is powerless to stop that on a 1v1 game especially.

In this particular case, demon joined a bunch right in a row, though admittedly not that many. I expect there are others who are hunting them far more, but I didnt stumble on them. I saw that it looked like he was either beginning to target them, or has been for a while, so I posted. If its not ok, he will simply have to stop. If it is ok nothing happens.

Ive played 6000 games, and killed hundreds of new recruits and new players. Ive been in thousands of team games and obviously have gained many points from new players. Those new players that stumble into my world games certainly have less of a chance of winning, statistically. I am hardly trying to be self-righteous here, and burn demon at the stake. Im simply asking if thats considered to be illegal farming. I dont think theres any question that it is farming...to whatever extent.

I am hardly the biggest anti-farming advocate out there either. I fully believe that there is a right of passage of all new players, and that if a new player takes on the top players on the site, that they fully accept the inherent risk of losing, and do so for the fun of the game. I think to block that right would be wrong on a basic level. However, I do think we can stop experienced players from simply mopping up hundreds of new players, for the sake of a few points here and there, by joining many of their games. I believe this is the intent of the rules, and the reason for the rule in the first place.

I also, am just a player, and while I know the workings of CC fairly well, hardly claim to know everything. And as ive admitted several times, have no idea if him joining those games is wrong, or if he is free to continue joining as many players with 6 games as he wants. Thats why I posted the thread, to find out...and... to stop it if it is seen to be against the rules.

If I knew he would take it so personally, Id have just joined a bunch of new players myself, and asked if what I did was farming except that I thought it was against the rules to do so.

[Mr.Brix]

Isn't it about time, we get an answer here? Is it illegal or not?

Then we can move on to more interesting questions, like: Why would anyone even WANT to play people, they can easily beat? I mean... where's the sport? What's the fun? What's the point? (Besides a cheap thrill desperately needed for filling out the big open gap in ones fragile image of one self - ahh... I went to far!)

So that this doesn't come off as nuttin but a thread jack attempt, let me state, that I personally think, that this instant can not be considered illegal as the rules are. The guy likes a type of game. He joins them all. Not gross abuse. Not farming imo. Should it be illegal? Well I think it should maybe some how be prohibited (or at least made sure, that both sides chooses to play against a certain level of skill (but now I'm thread jacking again...).

/Brix

[BoganGod]

At the risk of been accused of trolling, why not check out the poll on AAFitz and demonfork in much ado about nothing..... Have your say, make your vote count. demonfork currently topping the poll

[Timminz]

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

It's true. Higher ranked people know better. Anyone starting a casual 1v1 freestyle game, obviously does not understand how to successfully play casual 1v1 freestyle. For someone who has mastered the intricacies of the game, it's no challenge to beat someone like that. Some people are looking for the least challenging way to gain points, while others look for a challenge in each, and every game. As of yet, chasing easy wins like this is not against the rules.

I just beat the snot out of AAfitz 10 mins ago in a fs 1v1 game..

He was easier to beat than most lower ranked players I have played against.

beating him was no challenge, should I get in trouble for beating him too?

WTF does that have to do with anything?

You beat fitz in a game, so you must not be systematically targeting inexperienced players in 1v1 freestyle.

I'll help your cause out a little bit here. Just repeat this, "What I am doing is not against the rules. If/when the rules change to make it illegal, I will stop doing it. Until then, I'll take guaranteed wins whenever I see them", and then mock someone's rank.

You're welcome.

[demonfork]

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

It's true. Higher ranked people know better. Anyone starting a casual 1v1 freestyle game, obviously does not understand how to successfully play casual 1v1 freestyle. For someone who has mastered the intricacies of the game, it's no challenge to beat someone like that. Some people are looking for the least challenging way to gain points, while others look for a challenge in each, and every game. As of yet, chasing easy wins like this is not against the rules.

I just beat the snot out of AAfitz 10 mins ago in a fs 1v1 game..

He was easier to beat than most lower ranked players I have played against.

beating him was no challenge, should I get in trouble for beating him too?

WTF does that have to do with anything?

You beat fitz in a game, so you must not be systematically targeting inexperienced players in 1v1 freestyle.

I'll help your cause out a little bit here. Just repeat this, "What I am doing is not against the rules. If/when the rules change to make it illegal, I will stop doing it. Until then, I'll take guaranteed wins whenever I see them", and then mock someone's rank.

You're welcome.

Check back a couple of pages guy...

Like I said, I like to play freestyle 1v1, regardless of rank.

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=5133004

Well at least this guy has played 6000 games. Much better than the 10 games or so those other newbies you were farming played.

To be honest, Id have probably let you win anyways. Ive seen your chat when you lose. Id spend 100 points not to have to read that again

How often do you think causal freestyle 1v1's are set-up by players with ranks above corporal?

well, since causal freestyle 1v1 games alone are very rare, ones that are set-up by higher ranked players are even more scarce.

If CC want's to make a rule that limits the amount of games that higher ranked players can join against lower ranked players, then I will abide by that rule.

Until then, I still plan on joining casual freestyle 1v1's that I come across.

[Timminz]

that's close, but you forgot to mock fitz, for being a lowly brig.

[xxtig12683xx]

Game 5122936

he cant win em all!!


-tig

[ronsizzle]

5 pages devoted to someone trying to defame fitzy? come on people, this forum used to be used for actual cheating. this thread isnt locked by now? 5 pages? i read one. i cant believe that fitz is playing into this.

wow.

[apb23]

I know..DF is the farmer, not Fitz

[AAFitz]

5 pages devoted to someone trying to defame fitzy? come on people, this forum used to be used for actual cheating. this thread isnt locked by now? 5 pages? i read one. i cant believe that fitz is playing into this.

wow.

Im just answering the questions. I made the accusation. I have the responsibility to answer any issues and explain myself. I admit he took it far more personally than I intended, but I made the accusation, which was meant as more of a question... not him. Besides, from his response to losing some rolls in the game chat, I probably should have expected an emotional response from something like this.

[king achilles]

If the player is no longer wearing a "?" rank, we can consider him as no longer a new recruit, therefore, he can play games with anyone. More so, if the new player is the one who created the game, then whoever joins his game will be following his preferred settings. Looking at demonfork's 1 vs 1 freestyle games, I think generally it is still pretty much a mix of different ranked players. It has also helped demonfork's case that most of these "new" members he has played with has stayed around and became regular players of the site so far.

Cleared. Locked.