Double Turns and Freestyle Turn Holding

[cramill]

I'm hoping that an answer to this oversight is in the pipeline still, now that players ending their turns are logged.

I concur.

[demonfork]

Calling it a bug doesn't make it a bug. It's a perfectly valid strategy; if you don't like it don't play the game type. Don't change the game type for those that just aren't good at it.

You've missed the point, AGAIN!

From page 7, 8th post from the top:
Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Before the usual suspects descend with the typical well worn record of "If you don't like Freestyle, play Sequential instead." It's not Freestyle I've got the problem with, so take a back seat and listen carefully. It's the unintended exploit that is the result of a minor oversight when the Freestyle Turn Delay was first implemented.

And from page 7 also, 5th post from the bottom:
Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Makes it more strategic. Know how freestyle works before you join any games, that's what I say.

If double turns are so cool and such good strategy, then answer me this: Why was a turn delay implemented for the player that ends the round in a freestyle game in the first place?

So Kotaro, why did they implement the turn lock out for the player that ends the previous round in freestyle, if not to prevent double turning? Players are just side stepping it by running the clock out, it's an oversight that needs addressing. Don't bother playing the old record of if you don't like freestyle don't play, it's old and it doesn't cut it. Objective maps also highlight the need to correct this oversight.

NOTE: Only casual needs fixing as players may not be around when someone runs out the clock, in a speed game there is no advantage to running out the clock as all players are present through out the game.

In a causal FS game...

If player A takes his turn and ends and then player B takes his turn and ends, player B cant take his next turn until either:

1. Player A first starts his turn.
2. 12 hours have expired off of the clock.

If, after 12 hours, player B takes his turn before Player A, because player A failed to take his turn in the first 12 hours, would that not in fact be a "double turn" for player B?

So even if your so called "glitch" is removed from FS a "double turn" would still be possible.

You could say that it's player A's fault for not taking his turn in a timely manner.

I could also say that its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip to prevent their opponent from taking a "double turn".

You see it's all about dedication, you know how many times Ive squelched an opponents attempt at a double turn because I showed up at the flip? You know how many times my attempt at a "double turn" have been thwarted because my opponent has done the same? It's part of the fun that the FS format has to offer.

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Or if you are afraid that your opponent might try taking the big bad "double turn" and you panic and are unsure what to do or you just don't want to stay up til "2 am" then go second every time and a "double turn" by your opponent will become impossible. This is really not that difficult!

If you can't hang with the in's and outs of FS, it means that you lack the dedication and/or the brains that it takes to be a good freestyle player and you should therefore "stick to sequential".

[MrBenn]

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Except that the round rarely changes at the 24hr mark - it flips 1hr after the last player takes their turn; giving the player to go last the advantage of knowing or deciding exactly when the next round will start.

[cramill]

In a causal FS game...

If player A takes his turn and ends and then player B takes his turn and ends, player B cant take his next turn until either:

1. Player A first starts his turn.
2. 12 hours have expired off of the clock.

If, after 12 hours, player B takes his turn before Player A, because player A failed to take his turn in the first 12 hours, would that not in fact be a "double turn" for player B?

So even if your so called "glitch" is removed from FS a "double turn" would still be possible.

You could say that it's player A's fault for not taking his turn in a timely manner.

I could also say that its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip to prevent their opponent from taking a "double turn".

Yes we all understand this aspect and I don't think anyone is arguing to get rid of the above "double turn" it really isn't a double turn since player A had a chance to take his turn, but didn't. You see - this is clearly outlined in the instructions of the game. It is player's A's fault for not taking his turn in a timely manner. But, I do not agree with the "Its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip."

You see it's all about dedication, you know how many times Ive squelched an opponents attempt at a double turn because I showed up at the flip? You know how many times my attempt at a "double turn" have been thwarted because my opponent has done the same? It's part of the fun that the FS format has to offer.

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Or if you are afraid that your opponent might try taking the big bad "double turn" and you panic and are unsure what to do or you just don't want to stay up til "2 am" then go second every time and a "double turn" by your opponent will become impossible. This is really not that difficult!

If you can't hang with the in's and outs of FS, it means that you lack the dedication and/or the brains that it takes to be a good freestyle player and you should therefore "stick to sequential".

Bla bla bla. Dedication?! People have jobs and school and can't get to a computer at any given point in time. You could say - "then they shouldn't play freestyle" - but there are aspects of casual freestyle that people like - doubles freestyle for example - its fun to be able to go at the same time as your partner but you don't want to have to worry about the double turn exploit. Something casual shouldn't require that much dedication.

My argument is for fairness. It is not fair for one person/team to wait it out and take their turn in the last few minutes of the round to take a bonus then be able to get the bonus right away - without the chance of the other person/team to break the bonus.

I do not think that the double turn exploit is an intentional part of freestyle. If it were intentional it would be described in the instructions of the game. It is an unintentional "feature"(read 'bug') that is exploited for people to gain an unfair advantage.

[demonfork]

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Except that the round rarely changes at the 24hr mark - it flips 1hr after the last player takes their turn; giving the player to go last the advantage of knowing or deciding exactly when the next round will start.

What freestyle game are you playing?

Unless everyone takes their turn and ends, the clock flips exactly 24 hours after the game is initiated EVERY TIME. The player(s) that go last and time out must do it between 23 and 24 hours, it can't be done at any other time.

Even if it were an 8 player, everyone in the game could wait til the 23 hour mark, take their turn, run the clock out and immediately have the ability to start their turn the next round.

[MrBenn]

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Except that the round rarely changes at the 24hr mark - it flips 1hr after the last player takes their turn; giving the player to go last the advantage of knowing or deciding exactly when the next round will start.

What freestyle game are you playing?

Unless everyone takes their turn and ends, the clock flips exactly 24 hours after the game is initiated EVERY TIME. The player(s) that go last and time out must do it between 23 and 24 hours, it can't be done at any other time.

Even if it were an 8 player, everyone in the game could wait til the 23 hour mark, take their turn, run the clock out and immediately have the ability to start their turn the next round.

The round ends as soon as all the players have taken their turns.... If you and I were playing a freestyle game and I went first as soon as it started, then you would have up to 24hrs to take your turn. The next round would start as soon as you ended your turn (or timed out); which could happen at any time, and not necessarily - in fact rarely - at the end of the 24hr period. The point being that the advantage remains with the player who goes last, as they trigger the beginning of the next round.

[Sohail88]

demonfork wrote:I could also say that its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip to prevent their opponent from taking a "double turn".

You see it's all about dedication, you know how many times Ive squelched an opponents attempt at a double turn because I showed up at the flip?

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

lets say we played an oasis game. round 5 everyone has ended apart from me. i begin my turn with 5 minutes to go untill clock runs out, deploy and take the middle but do not end. you are there and watching me make this move. 5 minutes later the clock runs out. you begin and deploy but before you have the chance to take the middle off me i begin my turn and win. where was your chance? how could you possibly 'squelch' my double turn by being online? unless you can begin, deploy and attack in the second it takes me to begin my turn (which brings us back to freestyle being all about speed, which it shouldnt be, but some people *cough cough* abuse the fact that they have a quicker computer than others), you have no chance of doing anything about it.

[Bruceswar]

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

Except that the round rarely changes at the 24hr mark - it flips 1hr after the last player takes their turn; giving the player to go last the advantage of knowing or deciding exactly when the next round will start.

Incorrect. A double turn only works in the last hour (24th hour). No other time at all. That means you must wait till the last hour of the 24 for it to work. So if a double turn is going to be taken, then you know when it will come up.

[wolfpack0530]

Freestyle has turned into "who is faster at the clicky maps" The fact that not everybody has clicky maps, or you must dowload firefox and greasemonkey and jump through all these hoops to get clicky maps creates an uneven playing field.

Either conquer club needs to make the clicky maps standard for all users automatically, or eliminate this freestyle double turns crap. the fact that one user can take 12 terittories in 6 seconds and the other cant even cash and deploy in that time is more unfair than multis, secret alliances, or any other form of cheating out there.

As far as I see it, freestyle double turns / clicky maps is the most aggregious form of cheating on this site.

Conquer club needs to either eliminate the clicky maps, or find a way to make them AUTOMATICALLY available to everybody (dont tell me i need to go to greasmonkey, make your own greasemonkey script that makes all games have clicky maps, or nothing at all). If they (CC) dont, THEY ARE CONDONING CHEATING!!

[MrBenn]

Incorrect. A double turn only works in the last hour (24th hour). No other time at all. That means you must wait till the last hour of the 24 for it to work. So if a double turn is going to be taken, then you know when it will come up.

Really? I assumed that if you were the last player to go, and you ran out of time, that it would trigger the next round thus enabling the double turn loophole.... (does it show that I don't know how to maximise exploit of it )

[Bruceswar]

Incorrect. A double turn only works in the last hour (24th hour). No other time at all. That means you must wait till the last hour of the 24 for it to work. So if a double turn is going to be taken, then you know when it will come up.

Really? I assumed that if you were the last player to go, and you ran out of time, that it would trigger the next round thus enabling the double turn loophole.... (does it show that I don't know how to maximise exploit of it )

Nope has to be the last hour only. Rarely do you see a double turn happen in anything but City Mogul or a 1 vs 1 game.

[MrBenn]

Incorrect. A double turn only works in the last hour (24th hour). No other time at all. That means you must wait till the last hour of the 24 for it to work. So if a double turn is going to be taken, then you know when it will come up.

Really? I assumed that if you were the last player to go, and you ran out of time, that it would trigger the next round thus enabling the double turn loophole.... (does it show that I don't know how to maximise exploit of it )

Nope has to be the last hour only. Rarely do you see a double turn happen in anything but City Mogul or a 1 vs 1 game.

Where's that humble freestyle pie??

In my defence, less than 1% of my games have been freestyle...

[Bruceswar]

Incorrect. A double turn only works in the last hour (24th hour). No other time at all. That means you must wait till the last hour of the 24 for it to work. So if a double turn is going to be taken, then you know when it will come up.

Really? I assumed that if you were the last player to go, and you ran out of time, that it would trigger the next round thus enabling the double turn loophole.... (does it show that I don't know how to maximise exploit of it )

Nope has to be the last hour only. Rarely do you see a double turn happen in anything but City Mogul or a 1 vs 1 game.

Where's that humble freestyle pie??

In my defence, less than 1% of my games have been freestyle...

For to add this is not counting speed games....

[Thezzaruz]

Except that the round rarely changes at the 24hr mark - it flips 1hr after the last player takes their turn; giving the player to go last the advantage of knowing or deciding exactly when the next round will start.

Well you have been told you where wrong, thought I should add a more exact explanation as I didn't see one. Timing out your round counts as going last just as if you had clicked the "end reinforcements" button. Having the 24 h round clock time out however counts as CC finishing the round and hence anyone with an active round at that time is free to go again.

But even though I might know the exact time for the round to end it doesn't mean that I can casually attend CC at that time. So I fully support making this possibility impossible.

[MrBenn]

Well you have been told you where wrong

And I'm standing/slouching corrected.

Thanks for the explanation too

[Artimis]

I should have checked in on this sooner, anyway.

Blah, blah, blah, if you don't like freestyle, don't play freestyle, blah, blah, blah

I'm still waiting for an adequate response to my initial question in this thread, if the turn delay was not implemented to prevent double turning, then why was it applied in the first place? A double turn will instantly win on an objective map also, see Game 4235041, from my first post in this thread below:

Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

I think this needs looking into again by the site staff. Check out Game 4235041, Red waited for the clock to run out and then immediately started his turn again. I don't mind Red winning by taking the Grand Oasis, I would if I had the opportunity, it's just the way he went about it that stinks. The game code definitely needs fine tuning to stop this sort of nonsense in casual games(but not speed games).

Before the usual suspects descend with the typical well worn record of "If you don't like Freestyle, play Sequential instead." It's not Freestyle I've got the problem with, so take a back seat and listen carefully. It's the unintended exploit that is the result of a minor oversight when the Freestyle Turn Delay was first implemented.

[ronsizzle]

huh, here i thought i was on a site that was only concerned with bigotry?

why would cc care about game play? they have bigger fish to fry. or bigger racists i should say.

leave freestyle alone, and make a bunch of objective maps to inflate scores, that is what i think.

[demonfork]

I should have checked in on this sooner, anyway.

Blah, blah, blah, if you don't like freestyle, don't play freestyle, blah, blah, blah

I'm still waiting for an adequate response to my initial question in this thread, if the turn delay was not implemented to prevent double turning, then why was it applied in the first place? A double turn will instantly win on an objective map also, see Game 4235041, from my first post in this thread below:

Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

I think this needs looking into again by the site staff. Check out Game 4235041, Red waited for the clock to run out and then immediately started his turn again. I don't mind Red winning by taking the Grand Oasis, I would if I had the opportunity, it's just the way he went about it that stinks. The game code definitely needs fine tuning to stop this sort of nonsense in casual games(but not speed games).


Before the usual suspects descend with the typical well worn record of "If you don't like Freestyle, play Sequential instead." It's not Freestyle I've got the problem with, so take a back seat and listen carefully. It's the unintended exploit that is the result of a minor oversight when the Freestyle Turn Delay was first implemented.

ARE YOU DENSE?

IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF SOMEONE TAKING A DOUBLE TURN PREVENT IT BY ALWAYS GOING LAST, ITS NOT HARD!

THAT'S HOW THE DUDE IS ABLE TO TAKE THE DOUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BY MAKING SURE HE GOES LAST.

IT'S CALLED STRATEGY, EVER HEARD OF IT?

[cramill]

ARE YOU DENSE?

IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF SOMEONE TAKING A DOUBLE TURN PREVENT IT BY ALWAYS GOING LAST, ITS NOT HARD!

THAT'S HOW THE DUDE IS ABLE TO TAKE THE DOUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BY MAKING SURE HE GOES LAST.

IT'S CALLED STRATEGY, EVER HEARD OF IT?

Have you heard of the caps lock button?! Yours is on. Hit it once to turn caps lock off.

If you have to state an argument in all caps - maybe you don't have much of an argument. I'm pretty sure he has heard of strategy, but he thinks - along with many other people - that the double turn "strategy" is an unfair one.

[demonfork]

ARE YOU DENSE?

IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF SOMEONE TAKING A DOUBLE TURN PREVENT IT BY ALWAYS GOING LAST, ITS NOT HARD!

THAT'S HOW THE DUDE IS ABLE TO TAKE THE DOUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BY MAKING SURE HE GOES LAST.

IT'S CALLED STRATEGY, EVER HEARD OF IT?

Have you heard of the caps lock button?! Yours is on. Hit it once to turn caps lock off.

If you have to state an argument in all caps - maybe you don't have much of an argument. I'm pretty sure he has heard of strategy, but he thinks - along with many other people - that the double turn "strategy" is an unfair one.

I didn't use the cap locks button, I held down the shift key.

Did your even read what I wrote?

The strategy I mentioned was not regarding the taking of a double turn but to thwarting of one.

It's not hard.

Opponents don't double turn me because I don't allow them to.

[Artimis]

ARE YOU DENSE?

IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF SOMEONE TAKING A DOUBLE TURN PREVENT IT BY ALWAYS GOING LAST, ITS NOT HARD!

THAT'S HOW THE DUDE IS ABLE TO TAKE THE DOUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BY MAKING SURE HE GOES LAST.

IT'S CALLED STRATEGY, EVER HEARD OF IT?

Have you heard of the caps lock button?! Yours is on. Hit it once to turn caps lock off.

If you have to state an argument in all caps - maybe you don't have much of an argument. I'm pretty sure he has heard of strategy, but he thinks - along with many other people - that the double turn "strategy" is an unfair one.

I didn't use the cap locks button, I held down the shift key.

Did your even read what I wrote?

The strategy I mentioned was not regarding the taking of a double turn but to thwarting of one.

It's not hard.

Opponents don't double turn me because I don't allow them to.

Just to clarify my opinion of 'Double Turns'.

It's not a strategy, it's a cheap tactic, like skipping a turn in an escalating game when you have 5 cards and want more troops for your set.

As has also been mentioned earlier in this thread, not everyone has the free time to hang around a computer all day waiting for an optimal moment to play their turn. Similarly not everyone can afford to go without sleep waiting for the clock to run down just in case the last guy to have a turn to play double turns. The Freestyle Turn Delay was implemented for a reason, enough with trying to gainsay this simple fact.

[cramill]

Did your even read what I wrote?

The strategy I mentioned was not regarding the taking of a double turn but to thwarting of one.

Yes I did read what you wrote and it wasn't clear that you were talking about thwarting double turns.

It's not hard.

Opponents don't double turn me because I don't allow them to.

Congratulations. Its not a matter of being hard or not - its a matter of fairness.

Just to clarify my opinion of 'Double Turns'.

It's not a strategy, it's a cheap tactic, like skipping a turn in an escalating game when you have 5 cards and want more troops for your set.

As has also been mentioned earlier in this thread, not everyone has the free time to hang around a computer all day waiting for an optimal moment to play their turn. Similarly not everyone can afford to go without sleep waiting for the clock to run down just in case the last guy to have a turn to play double turns. The Freestyle Turn Delay was implemented for a reason, enough with trying to gainsay this simple fact.

I couldn't agree more.

[the.killing.44]

I could also say that its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip to prevent their opponent from taking a "double turn".

You see it's all about dedication, you know how many times Ive squelched an opponents attempt at a double turn because I showed up at the flip?

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

lets say we played an oasis game. round 5 everyone has ended apart from me. i begin my turn with 5 minutes to go untill clock runs out, deploy and take the middle but do not end. you are there and watching me make this move. 5 minutes later the clock runs out. you begin and deploy but before you have the chance to take the middle off me i begin my turn and win. where was your chance? how could you possibly 'squelch' my double turn by being online? unless you can begin, deploy and attack in the second it takes me to begin my turn (which brings us back to freestyle being all about speed, which it shouldnt be, but some people *cough cough* abuse the fact that they have a quicker computer than others), you have no chance of doing anything about it.

why are u still arguing, that guy already won!

(from fred)

[demonfork]

I could also say that its a players fault for not showing up at the 24 hour flip to prevent their opponent from taking a "double turn".

You see it's all about dedication, you know how many times Ive squelched an opponents attempt at a double turn because I showed up at the flip?

Every FS player, RIGHT NOW, has the ability to negate any "double turn" that could possibly be taken, all they have to do is show up when the 24 hour clock is about to expire. Every dedicated FS player does this.

lets say we played an oasis game. round 5 everyone has ended apart from me. i begin my turn with 5 minutes to go untill clock runs out, deploy and take the middle but do not end. you are there and watching me make this move. 5 minutes later the clock runs out. you begin and deploy but before you have the chance to take the middle off me i begin my turn and win. where was your chance? how could you possibly 'squelch' my double turn by being online? unless you can begin, deploy and attack in the second it takes me to begin my turn (which brings us back to freestyle being all about speed, which it shouldnt be, but some people *cough cough* abuse the fact that they have a quicker computer than others), you have no chance of doing anything about it.

why are u still arguing, that guy already won!

(from fred)

You are aware that it's against the rules to post for forum banned members, right?

[Artimis]

Game 5068909

Another example of the need to resolve this oversight. I expect my other Freestyle Escalating Oasis game to end this way also.