Combatting Foundry Elitism

[sailorseal]

Is there a middle ground between the two you can find? I don't really like either.

What specifically don't you like? The colours, or the map itself? Remember, specifics are a lot more helpful than vague bland thoughtless comments

Well lets take this for example:

"Remember, specifics are a lot more helpful than vague bland thoughtless comments"
Now this is just fine and helpful advice

":roll:"
Now this tells me two things
1) Please do not post in the Foundry
2) This is coming from a official voice of the Foundry, that tells me
People in the Foundry must not want me so why don't I devote my energy to Tournaments

It means far less coming from some regular user but when a Moderator is giving out comments like this it means far more


I am sorry MrBenn but I feel I need to call you out on this

[a.sub]

Hey a.sub, for starters there is a minor glitch in your flow chart:

right now the process is
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
the red places being possible starting points

The Ideas subforum is not a part of the mapmaking process. It CAN be, as in "I have an idea that I want to discuss before spending time on a draft," but most maps start in Drafts.
oh, i didnt know that all the maps ive ever worked on (a whopping 2 ) started in the ideas forum ... i think


So rather than altering a step, you are proposing that we add a step, but only for new mapmakers. Veterans get to skip a step and thus move through the Foundry faster... which is exactly what folks are complaining about when they point to the foundry and cry "elitism!"
i think i mis explained it, the mentor forum would be completely voluntary, not required for the new, or banned fromt he old, anyone who doesnt want to work on it alone.

Apart from aggravating the problem of foundless cries of elitism, I see two problems with a Mentor Finder requirement. First, who are the mentors? I spend about as much time in the Foundry as I have to offer... yes, I could better use my time if I didn't waste two hours every week debating whether or not the Foundry is elitist, but I'm not sure that I have the time or desire to hold somebody's hand through the mapmaking process. This is a serious commitment.
point taken, and the real life of the veterans (curse you people for having lives!!!!!) may impede on this, agreed.

The second problem is that there will be map proposals that don't pick up a mentor. Let's face it, most of the new map ideas are bad, regardless of who is coming up with them. I've had some losers in my time, and we've got some really bad ideas floating around right now. So, when a new mapmaker posts his intention to make a map of the male reproductive system and no veteran mapmaker volunteers to assist, what happens? Is there a committee that tells him that his idea is crap? Is there one Foundry Helper whose job it is to break the bad news? Because at some point a rejected mapmaker is going to go postal and start posting threads around CC crying "Why did the Moon map get a mentor and I did not? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? The mentor system doesn't work and the Foundry is elitist because nobody commented on my map."
i also see this problem and much to my distaste i know its all to real, sadly i dont have a way to counter this except the stupid response of "Get more foundry Mods" which would just be over complicating the process in my mind

Oh, and that last quote includes lines culled from actual posts... why make shit up when you don't have to?
lol

Anyway, gimil and I have been talking for a while about a less time-intensive system that might give assistance to new mapmakers... if I can pull myself away from these conversations I'll devote more time to it.
im curious

[AndyDufresne]

Though perhaps harsh, I'm not exactly sure MrBenn engaged in anything wrong. He was directing a poster (you) on how to provide better and more appropriate feedback. He was trying to get understand your points so he could either: A. Do something about your issues, or B. Explain why they work the way they do.

I also have a feeling, Sailorseal, that this was more of an isolated incident involving yourself. I think this was more natural frustration with a specific user, than anything larger than that.


--Andy

[oaktown]

I agree, sailor, that the eye-roll was unnecessary in that comment as the point had already been made. The CA badge puts MrBenn a position of authority, and for the most part I'd say he respects that. But MrBenn is also paying CC user just like you and me, he just happens to have some mod powers in the Foundry. His name is in blue so that we know who to turn to when we need a thread moved, a poll deleted, a troll warned, etc. I'd say he is entitled to be snarky or get frustrated every now and then, just as you or I on any other CC member is.

Now, had MrBenn posted an official Foundry Announcement saying that "Sailorseal has repeatedly demonstrated a propensity to make vague, bland, thoughtless comments - let's all give a collective to Sailorseal," I think you'd be right to ask him to turn in his badge.

bah, fastposted by Andy of all people.

[sailorseal]

Wow, wow, wow.


I never said he did anything wrong or should turn in his badge, I just said this is where the perception comes from, people making snark comments and that is completely allowed but just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Hardly isolated, it happens a lot, let me find my on going list.

[the.killing.44]

There's something called case-specificity, sailor. It comes through in MrB's comment but isn't shown in your analysis. You dont take context and history into account, and you generalize. And thus, even though what you say about a moderator's voice vs. a member's, one voice doesn't speak for all. Also, by posting in this thread I take it you're calling MrB, or at least his comment there, elitist?

.44

Don't take this as a personal attack on you as well.

Bah, fastposted by Andy and oak, of all people

[oaktown]

I never said he did anything wrong or should turn in his badge, I just said this is where the perception comes from, people making snark comments and that is completely allowed but just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Hardly isolated, it happens a lot, let me find my on going list.

I agree with you sailor, I was just giving you an example of something that would be crossing the line by an official voice.

[sailorseal]

Here is a taste

Here's a fantastic candidate: viewtopic.php?f=242&t=2322

Do it

I agree with Benn,





why is it locked? by who?

Were you going to necrobump it?? Call it a pre-emptive lock

I ask a simple question, get a simple insult.

Flames are posts or parts of posts which, directly or indirectly, insult, belittle, bully, name-call, or otherwise attack another user is not allowed.

If your post's intent was to provoke another user into an emotional response, to get under their skin or to otherwise piss them off, you're baiting them.

[AndyDufresne]

Sailorseal, I don't think this is on topic about "Foundry Elitism" -- I think this may be a personal issue you have to resolve with MrBenn in private.


--Andy

[sailorseal]

Sailorseal, I don't think this is on topic about "Foundry Elitism" -- I think this may be a personal issue you have to resolve with MrBenn in private.


--Andy

I think its both, this is elitismand its in the Foundry by a Cartographer

All seems to fit into the threads original purpose
How can we end this perception?

We could start by admitting our mistakes and promising to change them.

[AndyDufresne]

Sailorseal, I think I disagree with you, and urge to instead take your issues with MrBenn in private where you can discuss them thoroughly. I can see your point, but I think your point is off topic.


--Andy

[oaktown]

We could start by admitting our mistakes and promising to change them.

Yes, all of us. I'll begin...

Hi, my name is oaktown, and I'm a Foundryholic. (Hi, oaktown.) I admit that I take these conversations far too personally, since I spent a year as a CA being called an elitist. I've allowed my feathers to get ruffled far too often in the Foundry, and it cuts into my mapmaking/feedback time. This is my sin, and I intend to change it. I recognize that I have a problem, I commit to doing something about it, and I ask for your forgiveness.

Whew, that felt nice. Since I'm starting down a new path, that will be my last post in this thread.

Now, what mistakes are you admitting to and promising to change, sailorseal?

[sailorseal]

Hi my name is sailor, (hi sailor), I can sometimes make stupid posts that might be unhelpful, I will try and change this to make all of my map feedback useful. I also take responses by certain people (Benn) far too personally and allow myself to be hurt by them too much. I will try and take everything with a grain of salt. I also let .55 (Not going to single anyone out) get to me too much.
That's all for today

[a.sub]

back onto the OP

Hey a.sub, for starters there is a minor glitch in your flow chart:

right now the process is
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
the red places being possible starting points

The Ideas subforum is not a part of the mapmaking process. It CAN be, as in "I have an idea that I want to discuss before spending time on a draft," but most maps start in Drafts.
oh, i didnt know that all the maps ive ever worked on (a whopping 2 ) started in the ideas forum ... i think


So rather than altering a step, you are proposing that we add a step, but only for new mapmakers. Veterans get to skip a step and thus move through the Foundry faster... which is exactly what folks are complaining about when they point to the foundry and cry "elitism!"
i think i mis explained it, the mentor forum would be completely voluntary, not required for the new, or banned fromt he old, anyone who doesnt want to work on it alone.

Apart from aggravating the problem of foundless cries of elitism, I see two problems with a Mentor Finder requirement. First, who are the mentors? I spend about as much time in the Foundry as I have to offer... yes, I could better use my time if I didn't waste two hours every week debating whether or not the Foundry is elitist, but I'm not sure that I have the time or desire to hold somebody's hand through the mapmaking process. This is a serious commitment.
point taken, and the real life of the veterans (curse you people for having lives!!!!!) may impede on this, agreed.

The second problem is that there will be map proposals that don't pick up a mentor. Let's face it, most of the new map ideas are bad, regardless of who is coming up with them. I've had some losers in my time, and we've got some really bad ideas floating around right now. So, when a new mapmaker posts his intention to make a map of the male reproductive system and no veteran mapmaker volunteers to assist, what happens? Is there a committee that tells him that his idea is crap? Is there one Foundry Helper whose job it is to break the bad news? Because at some point a rejected mapmaker is going to go postal and start posting threads around CC crying "Why did the Moon map get a mentor and I did not? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? The mentor system doesn't work and the Foundry is elitist because nobody commented on my map."
i also see this problem and much to my distaste i know its all to real, sadly i dont have a way to counter this except the stupid response of "Get more foundry Mods" which would just be over complicating the process in my mind

Oh, and that last quote includes lines culled from actual posts... why make shit up when you don't have to?
lol

Anyway, gimil and I have been talking for a while about a less time-intensive system that might give assistance to new mapmakers... if I can pull myself away from these conversations I'll devote more time to it.
im curious

[AndyDufresne]

I'd also like to remind everyone spending time posting in this topic, please spend at least twice as much time posting in Map Topics that are currently in Production.


--Andy

[MrBenn]

Hm, oaktown...and others---we had a post somewhere about "Giving and Receiving Feedback" ---thinking about that now, that almost seems like it could fit into an etiquette guide...remember what I am talking about?


--Andy

The commnunity-written post is here: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=89550

Special thanks to edbeard

[gimil]

I'd also like to remind everyone spending time posting in this topic, please spend at least twice as much time posting in Map Topics that are currently in Production.


--Andy

Better yet, my friend always tells me.

'Jamie, for every one negative coment made I want to hear at LEAST two positive comments.'

Let me tell you, it works wonders!