The Balkan Peninsula [FF] --Feb 2nd 2010--

by **ZeakCytho** on Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:09 pm

Sorry guys, been buried under schoolwork again. The only thing suggested above I don't agree with is a bridge from Central Greece to Peloponesse, mostly because I find the bridges ugly and that that connection doesn't add much to the gameplay. Everything else will be changed - I'll try to fit in Bucovina. Would it be better to rename the newly merged Kyustendil-Sofia as Sofia or Kyustendil? Earlier on Qwert was arguing that we should remove the capital names where they appear, so people don't confuse cities with territories.

by **Qwert** on Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:01 pm

it'll be nice if u manage to put in bucovina, the only one that is missing; if u do this, then kyustendil is a prime candidate for removal, since that was part of sofia province when bulgaria was divided into 9 oblasts - this will make bulgaria a slightly easier hold for someone who's stuck in the east, where the only small bonus is turkey.

Iancanton, if we going to create proper map of Balkan,with all proper provinces,then Zeak can abandoned these map,maybe you ask why,because its not possible to put all provinces of all balkan countries.If you want to continue with that,then ok,i can give you a list of over 100 oblast or provinces of Grecce,Romania,Bulgaria,Serbia,Albania,and belive me Zeak will be have hard job to implement all these to be proper.
For your informacion here is how Romania regions can be created

These are the 8 development regions in Romania, which (with the exception of Bucureşti-Ilfov) are named by their geographical position in the country:

Macroregiunea 1:
Nord-Vest (6 counties)
Centru (6 counties)
Macroregiunea 2:
Nord-Est (6 counties)
Sud-Est (6 counties)
Macroregiunea 3:
Sud-Muntenia (7 counties)
Bucureşti-Ilfov (1 county and Bucharest)
Macroregiunea 4:
Sud-Vest Oltenia (5 counties)
Vest (4 counties)

nothing is perfect in balkan,and you can not create map with all regions to be 100% perfect.

Ofcourse Bulgaria is even harder to be 100% correct provinces.

since 1999, it has consisted of twenty-eight. All take their names from their respective capital cities:

Blagoevgrad
Burgas
Dobrich
Gabrovo
Haskovo
Kardzhali
Kyustendil
Lovech
Montana
Pazardzhik
Pernik
Pleven
Plovdiv
Razgrad
Rousse
Shumen
Silistra
Sliven
Smolyan
Sofia City
Sofia Province
Stara Zagora
Targovishte
Varna
Veliko Tarnovo
Vidin
Vratsa
Yambol

by **iancanton** on Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:00 am

qwert wrote:
it'll be nice if u manage to put in bucovina, the only one that is missing; if u do this, then kyustendil is a prime candidate for removal, since that was part of sofia province when bulgaria was divided into 9 oblasts - this will make bulgaria a slightly easier hold for someone who's stuck in the east, where the only small bonus is turkey.

Iancanton, if we going to create proper map of Balkan,with all proper provinces,then Zeak can abandoned these map,maybe you ask why,because its not possible to put all provinces of all balkan countries.

qwert wrote:nothing is perfect in balkan,and you can not create map with all regions to be 100% perfect.

we all agree that we cannot make a fully-correct map of the balkans that is playable. however, no-one is trying to do this. bucovina is the only historical region that is missing from romania, so it makes sense to include it. i support zeak's use of traditional regions because the modern development regions have the most boring names that u can imagine.

qwert wrote:Ofcourse Bulgaria is even harder to be 100% correct provinces.

the 9-oblast pre-1999 map of bulgaria is closer to our 6-region bonus zone than the modern 28-oblast map.

ZeakCytho wrote:Would it be better to rename the newly merged Kyustendil-Sofia as Sofia or Kyustendil?

the name of our kyustendil region was actually sofia province. if we merge sofia province with sofia city, then the only logical name is sofia. in this case, the name of the capital city is actually the name of the whole region, so there is no confusion.

qwert, from ur knowledge of the balkans, are there any mountains that we can use as impassables on the map to help protect serbia, bulgaria or macedonia a little?

ian.

by **AndyDufresne** on Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:29 pm

In regards to graphics, the only things I'd consider sprucing up would be the legend and the shadowy flags around the title. This area seems a little dark, the shadow/fading/smudging doesn't do it for me. As for the Legend, I'm not there is really anything you can do---it just seems slightly not with the current visual theme.

--Andy

by **Qwert** on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am

the name of our kyustendil region was actually sofia province. if we merge sofia province with sofia city, then the only logical name is sofia. in this case, the name of the capital city is actually the name of the whole region, so there is no confusion.

Bukovina is area who go in Ukraine to,actualy alost half of bukovina is in ukraine.

by **iancanton** on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:54 pm

half of macedonia is in greece and the other half in the former yugoslav republic of macedonia. most of thrace is in bulgaria and turkey, not greece. styria (stajerska) is divided between austria and slovenia. what point are u trying to make, qwert?

ian.

by **Qwert** on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:44 pm

bucovina is the only historical region that is missing from romania

Iancanton,if you dont notice these need to be map with present countries,not some historical map of Balkan area before 100 or more years. And you have many historical regions who is much importan then bukovina,and its not on map.

by **ZeakCytho** on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:27 pm

I apologize again for not responding sooner, been very busy with real life stuff. I'll respond to everything...sometime next week :oops:

Big thanks to everyone who has commented!

by **iancanton** on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:28 am

qwert wrote:
bucovina is the only historical region that is missing from romania

Iancanton,if you dont notice these need to be map with present countries,not some historical map of Balkan area before 100 or more years. And you have many historical regions who is much importan then bukovina,and its not on map.

all of the regions in romania have historical names at the moment, so it's logical for the extra romanian region to be historical, not modern.

http://www.romaniatourism.com/romania-m ... s-map.html

it doesn't make sense to change the historical names to boring modern ones like nord-est or sud-est which can be associated with many unrelated countries, not just romania. in fact, romania's modern development regions do not actually have an administrative status and do not have a legislative or executive council or government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmen ... of_Romania

kyustendil was given this name on our map when a bonus for holding capital cities was being considered and we split sofia province into 2 regions. now we know that there will be no capital bonuses, i consider that the map will be fairer for the eastern player if we merge these 2 regions back to the original sofia province, so that there is a bonus zone similar to classic africa in the east, with an extra region in romania. it's even possible to consider removing the bridge from montana to romania, to help someone who has a bad eastern drop and no easy bonuses.

maybe the sar planina (sar mountains) can be added between pelagonia and kosovo to make the serbian bonus easier?

ian.

by **MrBenn** on Mon May 04, 2009 2:11 pm

Zeak,

This map is incredibly good looking - well done ;-)

My feedback will focus on the graphics side of things...

1. I'm not sold on the cross-hatching for Kosovo. Have you experimented with other ways of denoting this +1 bonus? A flag, star or some other symbol may help make this more intuitive? The wording of the Kosovo bonus on the legend is a bit clumsy too - how about "Hold Kosovo for a bonus of +1, and to unite the Serbian region."??

2. The 3-digit army number on Istanbul must fit wholly on the map. Change it now or later, but in either case you'll need to make it fit ;-)

3. Somebody mentioned the visibility of the Dubrovnik-Montenegro connection. I'd fix this by slightly distorting the size/shape of Dubrovnik.

4. While looking at Croatia, the islands between Istra and Dalmacija make me wonder whether or not the two territories connect?? On balance I don;t think they do, as I would possibly expect there to be a sea-path between them like Dalmacija and Dubrovnik... but I'm not completely certain

Adding a sea path wouldn't alter gameplay very much, would eliminate the Istra dead-end, and clarify the attack-route question ;-)

5. I'd remove three of the mountains between Makedonia and Kyustendil to make that border slightly clearer. You could slightly distort the Makedonie-Fier border to make the Fier-Pelagonia connection clearer too.

6. Adding another mountain between Istra and Primorska would help reinforce that impassable. The 'P' of Primorska isn't that visible either - it might be worth increasing the glow behind the P a little (you could either add it to the whole word, or add another layer with just a P on it and put it behind)

7. I'm not sold on the legend. I know you were wondering about a sample that qwert put up on p7, but the link to that image no longer works.

Whatever you decide to do with the legend, you should try and incorporate whatever themee you use for your title, so that the two are compatible with one another.

Here's a graphic of the small fixes I referred to:

by **Lone.prophet** on Tue May 05, 2009 5:01 pm

its a good looking map,

though i think the mountains can be overlooked or something and should someow be more powerfull represented, and ofcourse a written part about the mountains being impassable

by **alexandrois** on Sun May 10, 2009 8:14 am

Could you name the seas? e.g black sea, agean sea........

by **Peter Gibbons** on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:22 pm

I absolutely love this map--can't wait for it to see it come to life.

Three small questions/suggestions related to gameplay (and I apologize if these have already been addressed but I only skimmed the 14 pages)...

1) The first has to do with Bosnia & Herzegovnia. It's only a +1 bonus right now. It is 2 territories only, so I understand the reluctance to make it worth more. But it can be attacked from 5 different territories. It seems infinitely harder to hold than Slovenia, which is a +2 but can only be attacked from one territory. The other stand-alone +1 is Montenegro, and than can only be attacked from three adjacent regions.

I understand the geographic division of Bosnia, but I'd suggest finding a way to carve one or two more territories (internal ones) into it and making it a +2 or +3. Perhaps there can be a "Sarajevo" district that can only be attacked by FBIH and Sprska?

2) The second point has to do with Slovenia v. Eastern Turkey. Both are small regions, worth +2, that seem like great places for players to grow from the edges of the map. The only problem I see is that they aren't equal. Slovenia has 2 territories that touch outward and only touch 1 adjacent territory. Eastern Turkey has 2 territories that touch outward and touch 2 total adjacent territories (but the borders overlap so there are actually 3 ways to attack in). As such Eastern Turkey seems far more difficult to hold.

I'm no expert on Slovenia geography but is there a way to make it only two territories and downgrade it to +1?

3) The final point has to do with the bonus structure for Serbia and Bulgaria vs. Romania and Greece. Yes, I recognize that Romania and Greece have more territories. But they also are much easier to defend than Serbia and Bulgaria. At minimum, I would bump Serbia and Bulgaria to +5 OR downgrade Romania and Greece to +5. I just don't see justification for Romania and Greece to be worth 50% more than Serbia and Bulgaria.

by **iancanton** on Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:29 pm

thanks for ur detailed comments, peter.

Peter Gibbons wrote:Bosnia & Herzegovnia. It's only a +1 bonus right now. It is 2 territories only, so I understand the reluctance to make it worth more. But it can be attacked from 5 different territories. It seems infinitely harder to hold than Slovenia, which is a +2 but can only be attacked from one territory. The other stand-alone +1 is Montenegro, and than can only be attacked from three adjacent regions.

given the course of the sava river, it's possible to extend the course of the river to separate slavonija from republika srpska, if zeak is so minded. there have been several unsuccessful attempts at trying to split up bosnia & herzegovina (b & h) in a meaningful way. montenegro always starts neutral, while b & h is coded so that each player in 1v1 games starts with either fbih or republika srpska, so attacking ur opponent in b & h is a more natural first move than trying to eliminate montenegrin neutrals and therefore needs little incentive.

http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/worldg ... 3_map.html

Peter Gibbons wrote:Slovenia has 2 territories that touch outward and only touch 1 adjacent territory. Eastern Turkey has 2 territories that touch outward and touch 2 total adjacent territories (but the borders overlap so there are actually 3 ways to attack in). As such Eastern Turkey seems far more difficult to hold.

I'm no expert on Slovenia geography but is there a way to make it only two territories and downgrade it to +1?

slovenia was initially 2 regions, but we had to increase it to 3 because having too many small bonus zones means putting in more fixed starting neutrals, which players and mapmakers alike generally hate. the croatia player can actually attack slovenia more easily than vice versa because only 1 croatian region borders slovenia, while the slovenia player must spread his defence over 2 bordering regions.

Peter Gibbons wrote:I would bump Serbia and Bulgaria to +5 OR downgrade Romania and Greece to +5. I just don't see justification for Romania and Greece to be worth 50% more than Serbia and Bulgaria.

without a big bonus, it was feared that romania and greece would become dead areas, with the most of the play taking place purely in the west. they are worth their bonuses, being a bit more difficult than classic north america. i've already given the following recommendations to make serbia and bulgaria easier to hold.

iancanton wrote:kyustendil was given this name on our map when a bonus for holding capital cities was being considered and we split sofia province into 2 regions. now we know that there will be no capital bonuses, i consider that the map will be fairer for the eastern player if we merge these 2 regions back to the original sofia province, so that there is a bonus zone similar to classic africa in the east, with an extra region in romania.

iancanton wrote:maybe the sar planina (sar mountains) can be added between pelagonia and kosovo to make the serbian bonus easier?

ian.

by **freakns** on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:01 am

iancanton wrote:maybe the sar planina (sar mountains) can be added between pelagonia and kosovo to make the serbian bonus easier?

geographically, sar planina is placed between Pelagonija and Shkoder, not between Kosovo and Pelagonija.
if you want to make Serbia bonus easier to hold, you can have Prokletije not only between Kosovo and Montenegro, but also between Kosovo and Shkoder. and that has much more sence because whole border between Serbia and Albania is mountain area.
also, you may add Stara Planina, also mountain region, between Nisava and Montana/Kyustendil. this way Nisava can be attacked only from Serbian territories.

as for BiH, adding river Sava is good idea. but, place a bridge between Slavonija and Republika Srpska. because one of the major regional roads in former YU went through there and even now Slavonski Brod/Bosanski Brod connection is probably having most traffic over Sava(outside of Belgrade) and maybe even have more traffic then all Dalmacija/Federacija BiH have together. and this way, both Federacija BiH and Republika Srpska would have two points of attack making then more even.

by **MrBenn** on Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:14 pm

It's been some time since an update, and I know that zeak doesn;t have much time for mapmaking right now, so this one is taking a (hopefully short) trip to the recycling bin.

When you're ready to continue, get an update ready and drop one of the foundry mods a PM ;-)

by **Hatchman** on Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:28 pm

First time seeing this map and can't wait to play it! Gorgeous. Nice geographic features.

by **neanderpaul14** on Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:19 pm

hatchman wrote:First time seeing this map and can't wait to play it! Gorgeous. Nice geographic features.

Totally agree. I also love the way Kosovo is it's own bonus but is required to receive the Serbia bonus. I really hope this leaves the recycling bin and comes back to life.