[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[whitestazn88]

C'mon Tack - keep the momentum up on this map...

C.

Give me a break, I just finished with the Project From Hell and 3 exams. That was eating my entire free time alive. Today I should finally get time to sit down and work on it.

Momentum = Mass * Velocity

C.

well if he's been studying, he's probably on something like adderal, which is basically an amphetamine aka speed. so his velocity is increasing

at the same time, the amphetamines decrease hunger, so his mass is decreasing

although i can't determine the exact degree to which these two factors are changing, i can safely presume that his momentum on the project is pretty much the same.

[elronin]

DUDE I LOVE IT ALL and would be willing to playtest this with you WHENEVER YOU Get to that point. I love the large neutral idea, i love the tech idea, could you put these into levels of techs??? have three level ones, three level twos so that you conquer a level one tech that you get one of the three AT RANDOM not chosen??? just an idea.

[ustus]

have three level ones, three level twos so that you conquer a level one tech that you get one of the three AT RANDOM not chosen???

it's an interesting idea, but:

1 - not possible with the current XML. I'm not an expert, but i'm pretty sure the XML has to know what you're targeting. And that the bonuses have to be tied to a specific territory, you can't just have one of three random bonuses apply to a specific territory or a territory attack three different terits, picking one at random each time you do it (how would that work? you might hit a diff one each roll! it'd be a disaster! )

2 - very very detrimental to anyone trying to use a lot of strategy. as the map stands now, you'd be trying for a specific research that you want because that specific research would be useful to you. What you're suggesting would leave that all to luck, as you'd get an unknown upgrade of some kind. Without knowing what you'd get for the upgrade, how could you incorporate it into planning your move and deciding when it is wise to put your troops into the tech side of the map? no, the point of this map idea is to add another level of strategy to the game, not another level of luck. What you're suggesting would be incredibly annoying to anyone who wants to plan out their move, or think about when to research and when to fight.

Sorry if any of that sounded harsh, it is an interesting idea, and you might be able to find a way to use it if you can make it work with the XML, but i don't think it's at all suited for this map, for the above reasons.

For those of you who notice that this is my first post in this thread: love the idea! i've been following this since before it was vacationed for so long, and can't wait to see how it turns out. Recently downloaded Civ 3, and i'm even more excited for this now. I'd love to see some kind of idea of what the actual battlefield portion of the map would look like, been wondering about that for a while. I just haven't had anything to contribute till now, so i haven't posted.

good luck!

[luxCRUSADER]

DUDE I LOVE IT ALL and would be willing to playtest this with you WHENEVER YOU Get to that point. I love the large neutral idea, i love the tech idea, could you put these into levels of techs??? have three level ones, three level twos so that you conquer a level one tech that you get one of the three AT RANDOM not chosen??? just an idea.

Ditto here m8 !!!

As an VERY AVID member of the Civilization series and Civ Fanatics forum (until the MAF problems created a living hell for modders) I am really looking forward to this map being implemented.

If there is anything I can do for you here, just let me know ....sincerely .... just let me know ...Great job !!

Cheers !!!

Great refreshing and masterful idea !!!

You need to know that !!!!

[ustus]

I just had a couple thoughts while posting in another thread (the RPG in the ideas forum) that i think apply here:

-IF two people both play this map and both devote all their troops to research, wouldn't it become a game of luck? in which case, isn't it a bit of a race, whenever more than one player picks research? does anyone remember some of the comments about the st. Patrick's day map, that it involved too much luck? it was said that the map was fun for some people because of that (i missed it, free speed games and i missed it ) but weren't there complaints about that? correct me if i'm wrong, but it is something that needs to be adressed (i would still play the map if that is an issue, it sounds phenomenal anyway, and i think this will become less of an issue since players are allowed to pick the order of their researches)

-IF someone were to be eliminated in the territory portion of the map, there is no way for their research terits to be eliminated. For you premium users, this isn't much of an issue, but for those of us who have chosen not to spend the money, that would leave a quarter of our available game slots tied up for a while in a game we can't even affect anymore beyond holding it up. Most likely this will clear itself up with a few people annoyed that someone's taking so long to win and a few people deadbeating from games they can no longer affect, but i think it's worth bringing up. A simple solution (which might have been useful) would be a "sabotage" technology which can bombard any technology of another player's. (mark it down, folks, i just SUGGESTED bombardment for the first time...) This would allow a defeated player to actually be eliminated, and it would also allow a player to cause problems for another player in the research department. To go along with that, there could be some technology that allows players to recover their capital city after being eliminated from the game map (well, after the capital is captured, to make it possible via the XML) possibly call it "revolution" or "rebellion" and allow it to one-way-attack the capital? this gives players a way back into the game, as well as giving the leaders a reason to use the sabotage tech.

Just a suggestion, let me know what you think... I'm not even sure if those concerns are important at all, just a couple things i don't think had been discussed here that i thought should be brought up.

[TaCktiX]

I just had a couple thoughts while posting in another thread (the RPG in the ideas forum) that i think apply here:

-IF two people both play this map and both devote all their troops to research, wouldn't it become a game of luck? in which case, isn't it a bit of a race, whenever more than one player picks research? does anyone remember some of the comments about the st. Patrick's day map, that it involved too much luck? it was said that the map was fun for some people because of that (i missed it, free speed games and i missed it ) but weren't there complaints about that? correct me if i'm wrong, but it is something that needs to be adressed (i would still play the map if that is an issue, it sounds phenomenal anyway, and i think this will become less of an issue since players are allowed to pick the order of their researches)

The variety of researches and the variety of territory bonuses on the map should forestall any "pure luck" scenarios.

-IF someone were to be eliminated in the territory portion of the map, there is no way for their research terits to be eliminated. For you premium users, this isn't much of an issue, but for those of us who have chosen not to spend the money, that would leave a quarter of our available game slots tied up for a while in a game we can't even affect anymore beyond holding it up.

Capitals (and this will be explained in the legend that I need to add a symbol and a background to) attack their home laboratories and top secret facilities. Labs and TSFs in turn attack basic and advanced researches. So you can eliminate a person from the game AND take their research in the process.

[yeti_c]

Yawn - where's the next draft?

C.

[ustus]

I just had a couple thoughts while posting in another thread (the RPG in the ideas forum) that i think apply here:

-IF two people both play this map and both devote all their troops to research, wouldn't it become a game of luck? in which case, isn't it a bit of a race, whenever more than one player picks research? does anyone remember some of the comments about the st. Patrick's day map, that it involved too much luck? it was said that the map was fun for some people because of that (i missed it, free speed games and i missed it ) but weren't there complaints about that? correct me if i'm wrong, but it is something that needs to be adressed (i would still play the map if that is an issue, it sounds phenomenal anyway, and i think this will become less of an issue since players are allowed to pick the order of their researches)

The variety of researches and the variety of territory bonuses on the map should forestall any "pure luck" scenarios.

ok, awesome. I was thinking that would be the answer to that one, I like the idea, i'm really playing devil's advocate with these... If it had turned out to be a problem it would have been bad, but i thought you had thought about it, just wanted to bring it up and make sure.

-IF someone were to be eliminated in the territory portion of the map, there is no way for their research terits to be eliminated. For you premium users, this isn't much of an issue, but for those of us who have chosen not to spend the money, that would leave a quarter of our available game slots tied up for a while in a game we can't even affect anymore beyond holding it up.

Capitals (and this will be explained in the legend that I need to add a symbol and a background to) attack their home laboratories and top secret facilities. Labs and TSFs in turn attack basic and advanced researches. So you can eliminate a person from the game AND take their research in the process.

hmmm... so you're intending that by eliminating another player you can then become stronger within the game by doing their research in adition to yours? That seems a little odd, simply because it allows you to research everything twice and gain the same bonus from it both times. I'm just pointing this out, because as long as it's what you intended it's not a problem. Just seems odd to me.

[OliverFA]

-IF someone were to be eliminated in the territory portion of the map, there is no way for their research terits to be eliminated. For you premium users, this isn't much of an issue, but for those of us who have chosen not to spend the money, that would leave a quarter of our available game slots tied up for a while in a game we can't even affect anymore beyond holding it up.

Capitals (and this will be explained in the legend that I need to add a symbol and a background to) attack their home laboratories and top secret facilities. Labs and TSFs in turn attack basic and advanced researches. So you can eliminate a person from the game AND take their research in the process.

hmmm... so you're intending that by eliminating another player you can then become stronger within the game by doing their research in adition to yours? That seems a little odd, simply because it allows you to research everything twice and gain the same bonus from it both times. I'm just pointing this out, because as long as it's what you intended it's not a problem. Just seems odd to me.

He means that research territories can be bombarded from that player capital, but not conquered. This allows to eliminate a player from the game for terminator and assasin games, but not to get his research bonus, and not to "research twice".

Thanks so much for your interesting comments Ustus.

[OliverFA]

Also, if you take all map territories from a player, you'd better bombard all his research territories. Because if you don't do so, he can still research the victory tech and win.

[dolomite13]

What about adding the ability to "Propaganda" to one way attack your capital or possibly all homeland territories so that you could use propaganda to reclaim territories that have been conquered?

So you could bombard tech from your capital and if eliminated from the map you could try and get back in the game. Just a thought.

I think the map territories themselves may be too many. The map is quite cramped now and would need a considerable rework to fit all of the territories and the research areas on it. I can see the problem however that you need to strike a balance so that you can conquer the map as well as the research without becoming too weak on the map or stalling on research.

I posted a slightly reworked map a while back to show how you could lay out the research territories a bit nicer. I really love this map Idea and it has already given me some ideas for a map proposal of my own.

--D

My R&C Map Suggestion

show

[TaCktiX]

I adapted that map into what I need to put some finishing touches on. I don't want to draw down another draft of territories so badly I'm procrastinating the entire map because of it. But progress shall be made and the updated legend/research area (in my opinion, more important to do right) will be posted soon (as in, today).

[OliverFA]

What about adding the ability to "Propaganda" to one way attack your capital or possibly all homeland territories so that you could use propaganda to reclaim territories that have been conquered?

So you could bombard tech from your capital and if eliminated from the map you could try and get back in the game. Just a thought.

That's a very interesting suggestion. I only see a problem with it. That it allows to transfer troops from the technology part to the map part. If that problem could be solved, it would be a good technology to include in the list.

[TaCktiX]

To keep everything possible, capitals have bombard on Labs, all Researches, and TSFs, with a starting position on a Lab and a Capital for each player, allowing attacks for research while keeping troops out of the research zone. That's the best solution I can think of.

[TaCktiX]

Draft 0.9


Updates:
- Modified the setup of the Labs and Researches to be more intuitive, and save more space
- Added a legend explaining the basic bonuses and the research mechanic
- Deleted the craptasmic terrain setup
- Added a temporary impassable look to denote starting positions and the eventual look of territories on the map
- Added capital and homeland icons (in the legend)

Discussion:
- With the legend, is the research part of the map understandable?
- The icons visible in the legend will be in 6 player-appropriate colors to denote homeland and capital, with neutral "countries" without those icons. Are they good icons, and is that a good plan to show the homeland bonus?
- Blue is a river, and gray is a mountain range (I have tutorials to make them believable, they just require me to work on a pad of paper and to get a scanner handy again). Is this a better approach to separating out the map for 6 players with some neutral sections nearby?

[dolomite13]

What about adding the ability to "Propaganda" to one way attack your capital or possibly all homeland territories so that you could use propaganda to reclaim territories that have been conquered?

So you could bombard tech from your capital and if eliminated from the map you could try and get back in the game. Just a thought.

That's a very interesting suggestion. I only see a problem with it. That it allows to transfer troops from the technology part to the map part. If that problem could be solved, it would be a good technology to include in the list.

What about a territory off to the side that each player controls that can one way attack the capital and all homeland territories. It could start with 1 and be the place you reinforce and attack back to the map. I can imagine however that adding 6 more territories might start making this too cumbersome.

Draft 0.9
- With the legend, is the research part of the map understandable?
- The icons visible in the legend will be in 6 player-appropriate colors to denote homeland and capital, with neutral "countries" without those icons. Are they good icons, and is that a good plan to show the homeland bonus?
- Blue is a river, and gray is a mountain range (I have tutorials to make them believable, they just require me to work on a pad of paper and to get a scanner handy again). Is this a better approach to separating out the map for 6 players with some neutral sections nearby?

It seems much more understandable. Looking forward to the next rev.

--D

[ustus]

I have one more question: how do you get your top secret facility running? I know you start with Capital and Research (or do you start with homeland and research and capital? i can't remember) but do you have to attack tsf from your reasearch or do you start with it or do you attack it from somewhere else?

[TaCktiX]

You attack it from your lab, as it garners a fatter auto-deploy (need to add those auto-deploys to legend...) than the lab, to facilitate the very expensive advanced researches.

[ustus]

ok, that was my guess, sounds like it should work great... thanks for the answers. I'll post any more concerns i think of, other than that i'm just waaaaaaaiting for this map to be hit live play!!!

[OliverFA]

I like the new 0.9 version. It shows a lot of progress from 0.8.

A thing that I think would improve the map is to use some colour in the icons. Homeland icon and capital icon in the bottom right box would look better with a bit of colour. It does not have to be very bright colour, but at least something a bit different from the background colour. Also, I know that you are planning to do it, but I look forward to see the mine icon

Also in the text it says that capitals can bombard laboratories and top secret facilities. In fact they can bombard all researchs, so it would be better to say so. Somehting like "Capitals can bombard laboratories and researches".

The rough division looks very good.It provides the general shape fro all 6 homelands and for the central area. Good work!

[Yakinator]

What about adding the ability to "Propaganda" to one way attack your capital or possibly all homeland territories so that you could use propaganda to reclaim territories that have been conquered?

So you could bombard tech from your capital and if eliminated from the map you could try and get back in the game. Just a thought.

That's a very interesting suggestion. I only see a problem with it. That it allows to transfer troops from the technology part to the map part. If that problem could be solved, it would be a good technology to include in the list.

How about having a -x autodeploy on each research territory at the end of a turn and have a +x bonus for each research territory you hold with a city on the main map.





I have been a big fan of Civilization for many years and am looking forward to seeing this map in play. Its the most innovative map ive seen so far.

[yeti_c]

Boo to the lack of progress.

C.

[TaCktiX]

I'm about to be away at a camp for a week, and unable to work on R&C, but here is where things stand right now as a teaser:

Draft v0.92

Click image to enlarge.

Not Done:
- The rest of the territories and appropriate symbols
- Any Bridges to cross the river

Will Get Addressed Later:
- The crappiness of the rivers
- The filter to remove the white could use some tweaking

Comment away, I'll respond to feedback via my handy netbook, but heavy-duty editing is out of the question.

[OliverFA]

Updated first post to include that version of the draft. And also the title!

[WidowMakers]

Just want to keep this out there. Make sure the 888 will fit. You have a bunch of little spaces all over the place. It would be a shame to get all of this done to find that the 888 block borders or overlap text.

WM